Do RAW images create excessive noise at high ISOs?

[Larry S.]

The noise is there at the shooting stage.
The only issue is when and how to take steps to reduce the noise.
In the background - part sidetracking the original discussion - in something like Lightroom applying Denoise to a RAW file gets 10,000 ISO RAW file noise close to 400 ISO and to a moderate extent can increase resolution.
A possible downside using Lightroom is the age and specification of the computer.
My M2 + chip takes about 45 seconds a file.
Some with old computers report up to 10 minutes. Some other PP systems are widely reported as processing the equivalent of Denoise much quicker.

I find with wildlife it is rare for more than 1 in 20 images to merit significant post processing.
This reduces PP time when shooting at high ISO's.

Thanks Len! I will explore this in LrC. I have the Macbook w/M3 chip coming next week that should improve editing.

 

[Larry S.]

I think if you set your camera to record a raw and a jpeg and went into nx studio with a raw file and applied the various sliders to a similar degree that you set your camera to, you could demonstrate for yourself that the raw does not have more noise than the jpeg. As mentioned, you might be looking at the raw before the settings are applied.

I'd venture to say that these days most of noise comes from variability in light itself that becomes more evident when we use the iso dial to force the camera to underexpose in terms of the actual amount of light we allow to hit the sensor. The iso isn't creating the noise, setting the camera to high iso is forcing the meter to underexposure in terms of f number and/or shutter speed, and when we amplify the underexposure to brighten it, the noise that is there gets amplified right with it.

Exactly, the wren was backlit horribly and I knew going in that the ISO would really jump. What surprised me was how effective the “in camera” NR worked at 1,400 iso with JPEGs. The RAW image at 1,400 iso, without editing, looks like newsprint. Didn’t understand at the time that “in camera” NR had no effect on RAW images. Makes more sense now, thanks Bill….

 

[Larry S.]

The needs of Sports and Press photography are the primary motivation for optimizing in-camera jpgs. In short, the industry demands relatively small files shared at high speeds, enabling editors to not only meet deadlines but get their best shots into syndicated news feeds.
Consider, for example, how rapidly this image went viral from Tahiti

Shot of the Olympics taken with a Nikon Z9

bcgforums.com

The engineers designing pro ILCs have invested heavily in optimizing the camera to edit high quality images at very fast speeds before writing to disk, but smaller enough to network in real time to servers. So press ready.... With little or no time for post processing, except perhaps cropping in the studio.
Trending subjects and events are often captured in less than ideal light conditions, hence the prowess of in-camera editing of flagship ILCs to minimize image noise at high ISOs. Moreover, picture control files provide Pros with the on site editing tools to optimize their images contingent on local conditions.
However, our cameras also allow capturing RAW+jpg if one chooses. Best of both worlds.

Interesting! Didn’t know the backstory here. Thanks for taking the time to explain the “wherefores and the whys”>>> (great Gordon Lightfoot song by the way)

 

[Roy]

I shot this wren today in JPEG/large/fine* to determine if noise (grain) is just systemic in high ISO RAW images. This was a backlit situation w/Z9 600PF f/6.3 at 1/2500 sec. The auto ISO was a whopping 11,400! I was amazed at how little, if not negligible noise was present straight out of the camera. Similar shooting situations in RAW seem to have produced significantly higher noise at this ISO range. Maybe one of the members can explain what I’m seeing…. or not seeing here..
View attachment 95817

RAW image have the same noise as JPEGS but jpegs lose image quality every time you load/save them softening the image ..

 

[hef19898]

Editing software since the late 2000s doesn't recompress JPEGs anymore upon saving so.

 

[Ken Miracle]

I shot this wren today in JPEG/large/fine* to determine if noise (grain) is just systemic in high ISO RAW images. This was a backlit situation w/Z9 600PF f/6.3 at 1/2500 sec. The auto ISO was a whopping 11,400! I was amazed at how little, if not negligible noise was present straight out of the camera. Similar shooting situations in RAW seem to have produced significantly higher noise at this ISO range. Maybe one of the members can explain what I’m seeing…. or not seeing here..
View attachment 95817

Exif is not showing up for more info check out this post : https://bcgforums.com/threads/exif-info-is-here.15078/

 

[Ken Miracle]

I think if you set your camera to record a raw and a jpeg and went into nx studio with a raw file and applied the various sliders to a similar degree that you set your camera to, you could demonstrate for yourself that the raw does not have more noise than the jpeg. As mentioned, you might be looking at the raw before the settings are applied.

I'd venture to say that these days most of noise comes from variability in light itself that becomes more evident when we use the iso dial to force the camera to underexpose in terms of the actual amount of light we allow to hit the sensor. The iso isn't creating the noise, setting the camera to high iso is forcing the meter to underexposure in terms of f number and/or shutter speed, and when we amplify the underexposure to brighten it, the noise that is there gets amplified right with it.

Since NX studio opens the embedded jpg from your camera when you open a raw file so a fast way if you shot a raw + jpg or a raw and jpg of the same subject with the same camera settings the raw and jpg image opened in NX studio should look the same or close without any adjustments in NX studio.

 

[Larry S.]

Exif is not showing up for more info check out this post : https://bcgforums.com/threads/exif-info-is-here.15078/

That was curious Ken. My exif shows up on other images but wasn’t there on the wren…

 

[EricBowles]

So the “noise reduction“ (NR) settings do not effect any change if you are shooting RAW? Trying to make sense of that…

Not exactly. There is an embedded XMP file in the NEF file. It contains settings from Nikon including Noise Reduction, Sharpening, Picture Control, and Active D-lighting adjustments. But the editing program being used may or may not be applying those settings, and they may or may not be optimal for the editing software. If you have LR Classic Preferences set to Apply Camera Settings upon import, you'll see the result in the Basic and Detail panels.

I'm currently seeing excessive noise from some recent Z6iii landscapes at ISO 500 to 2500. I'm still trying to diagnose whether the issue is a camera setting or Lightroom Classic. I had the camera High ISO NR setting turned off and applied a normal amount of NR in LR - but it's still a problem. The same image in NXStudio is not showing the noise, so I believe it is an Adobe problem.

 

[Cameron T]

I tend to assume Adobe is to blame. I heard reports the same way about the z8 a while back too. I use c1, so no real issues to report on that front personally.

 

[Larry S.]

Not exactly. There is an embedded XMP file in the NEF file. It contains settings from Nikon including Noise Reduction, Sharpening, Picture Control, and Active D-lighting adjustments. But the editing program being used may or may not be applying those settings, and they may or may not be optimal for the editing software. If you have LR Classic Preferences set to Apply Camera Settings upon import, you'll see the result in the Basic and Detail panels.

I'm currently seeing excessive noise from some recent Z6iii landscapes at ISO 500 to 2500. I'm still trying to diagnose whether the issue is a camera setting or Lightroom Classic. I had the camera High ISO NR setting turned off and applied a normal amount of NR in LR - but it's still a problem. The same image in NXStudio is not showing the noise, so I believe it is an Adobe problem.

Thanks Eric! I’ll check out my LrC import settings

 

[Ken Miracle]

Not exactly. There is an embedded XMP file in the NEF file. It contains settings from Nikon including Noise Reduction, Sharpening, Picture Control, and Active D-lighting adjustments. But the editing program being used may or may not be applying those settings, and they may or may not be optimal for the editing software. If you have LR Classic Preferences set to Apply Camera Settings upon import, you'll see the result in the Basic and Detail panels.

I'm currently seeing excessive noise from some recent Z6iii landscapes at ISO 500 to 2500. I'm still trying to diagnose whether the issue is a camera setting or Lightroom Classic. I had the camera High ISO NR setting turned off and applied a normal amount of NR in LR - but it's still a problem. The same image in NXStudio is not showing the noise, so I believe it is an Adobe problem.

I have not used my Z6III for landscapes and have not only used it with the high ISO NR on Normal. So I have not run into that yet.