Does changing Picture Control Sharpness improve AutoFocus accuracy with Mirrorless bodies in low light?

[agrumpyoldsod]

This is interesting. One of the challenges with mirrorless AF is to understand what all variables can impact the AF performance. I remember when the Z6/7 were launched, there was this setting "apply setting to live view' and turning that off improved AF performance and I couldn't understand why on earth would a setting like that affect AF.

Thanks for your contribution. They are on different paths and so there is no evidence what you see in Live View / the EVF is used in the camera' Auto Focus process.

One of the biggest benefits of mirrorless cameras are the WYSIWYG EVF and you turn that off to get better AF?

NO the benefit is when Manually Focussing with focus peaking AND when tracking subjects if you do not set to show what the camera is shooting - a brighter view gives one more chance of putting the subject in the frame/selected AF area

But then the AF improvement was noticeable. Just before the launch of Z9, I rented out Z7II to get a hang of Nikon mirrorless and I noticed (again, subjective) there were times when pumping the exposure up by half a stop to a full stop resulted in slightly better AF.

This is a finding some and I are noticing with mirrorless - not just Nikon - the AF works better when the subject is correctly exposed.
When shooting my D8XXX on long safaris with the South Africans I travelled with (LC/CNP in particular) the mantra was "shoot with Exposure Bias set to EV -1, this gives you 1 stop free" and yes it did. We were pretty much using the central cross type AF-sensor anyway on the D810 and even the D500 even with 600/4+TC14III or 400/2.8 in extreme low light situations.
I still do not know enough about how the Z9 AF actually works in really poor light -- night game drives on the private reserves in KSA, pre-dawn in a Mara tracking lion actions and also the chases late on as the sun sets and well in the dark. It was then that the D5 and a 400/2.8 came good -- I still have the focus shots of a opportunistic cheetah chase and an antelope fleeing in the dark taken on a D5 and 400/2.8 at ISO 72,000 and 102,400, lion action with a D4S AND also a hunting party of wild dogs and separately leopards taken with a D810 and 400/2.8 at ISO 10,000 (one of our only sittings of the pack of dogs in Mala Mala that year) -- close to useless photos except to stir memories and tell stories.

This was when I was photographing a bird with very little contrast against high contrast BG. When I saw this article by Thom regarding picture control, It was yet another surprise and something I'd really want to test myself in challenging situations.

I am interested to hear about real world tests.

I haven't had the time to even test the Fw 2.1 yet but I wouldn't ignore his article either. It is better to understand all these finer nuances as you never know when it can come in handy.

I still would "LUV" to understand "how did they do that"? to the statement "Autofocus is now better at tracking small subjects" -- did they reduce the size of the AF group or adjust some of the parameters I have mentioned in my first post -- more sharpening, contrasts, added brightness etc....?

 

[BillW]

Separatey, Thom said that underexposure of whatever is under the focus sensor being used (including with subject detection) would reduce accuracy of Z9 AF.

https://www.zsystemuser.com/nikon-z-system-news-and/reader-questions-answered.html

 

[Bob Hullinger]

I agree and have commented on this before. A lot of wildlife shooters who have never owned a pro level camera bought the Z9 because it's the only way to get adequate AF performance in a Nikon MILC body. People don't understand that as you step up to the pro level cameras they are more, not less difficult to use than "consumer" level cameras. Add all of the hype around the Z9 and you have a lot of disenchanted folks. The Z9 does NOT live up to the hype. But IMO it is in fact the best product Nikon has released to-date.

My friend is a carpenter and can drive a fist full of 16 penny nails in seconds. He uses a very old classic wooden handled hammer. I have an expensive graphite handled hammer laying out in a drawer in my tool bench. I can drive and hold one nail at a time. I drive about as many nails ina decade as he can hold in hand at one time and drive like a machine in 15 or 20 seconds all day long building houses. I have band aids and beer on hand everytime I use it to treat the bleeding and take away the pain when I hammer my thumb instead of the nail. He needs neither but still drinks the beer. He's kidded me before...something like "nice hammer. When are you going to learn to use it?" Some folks feel they need a better tool to do something because they haven't put in the time learning to use what they already have. And when they smash their finger with the newer, improved hammer they blame the hammer manufacturer. I know one thing, whether it's the hammer out in my garage or any camera body I am holding at the time, when I blow a shot it wasn't the cameras fault or the Nikon corporations or Stanley Tools failure. I'm the one operating the hammer or the camera. I guess opinions about hype are relative to who the user is and how much experience they have driving nails.

 

[Shutterbug fan 1]

I ask this as a serious question. Is this a serious flaw in the Z9? Is the Z9 shutterless sensor and it's specific features worth 6 grand if one already knows how to use their Z7 or D850 competently and doesn't have a job working the sidelines of pro sports or NCAA games? Do the people using this at NHL games really have low light autofocus issues with the Z9?

Or is this just something that onlne critics write about because they have to find fault with every product they talk about? I read Thom Hogan articles and I get the drift that cat fights break out between online reviewer about minute details

Help me out folks, is the Z9 really such a flawed tool that it isn't fascinating enough as a camera to fill the day just taking great pictures? It almost seems that buying one doesn't make sense if it is so imperfect and that I can do everything I want with the other two 47mp bodies I already own. I hope I am wrong. I just don't want to get one and find out I already have tools that do the same thing and maybe do some of the same things better or at least do them in a way that I already know how to use.

Let me finish this with two questions and end my particpation in the discussion more confused than when I began because it seems to be flying way over my head right now. As a mortal camera user will any of this ever handcuff me if I buy a Z9 or is it just something Hogan wrote to stir controversy? Does any of this mean anything?

I don't see it as a flaw since the issue is an old one and recommendations for work arounds have solved similar issues. Its like having several apps open on a computer that results in a slowdown. At least that is the way I have seen it in the past. I have no problem with my Z9 focusing in low light at this time. I would think it depends on the engines driving the processing in any camera and the amount of attention that engine provides when distracted v undistracted.

 

[Warren D]

I've actually found that with the 2.1 FW, I'm getting a faster af lock with subject detection off, at least when I have a bird against a blank sky. I did some trials last weekend and it's repeatable, against the same blank sky, the af with subject detection on (animal) hunts more and takes longer to lock focus on an osprey. Turning subject detection off, af lock is faster and less hunting. This is with the FTZ2, 600 EFL with 1.4tc, YMMV. AF set to wide area large.

 

[ButlerKid]

I've actually found that with the 2.1 FW, I'm getting a faster af lock with subject detection off, at least when I have a bird against a blank sky. I did some trials last weekend and it's repeatable, against the same blank sky, the af with subject detection on (animal) hunts more and takes longer to lock focus on an osprey. Turning subject detection off, af lock is faster and less hunting. This is with the FTZ2, 600 EFL with 1.4tc, YMMV. AF set to wide area large.

How large was the subject in the FOV?

 

[Warren D]

How large was the subject in the FOV?

Didn't seem to matter if the subject filled the Wide Area Large bounding box or only 10% of it.

 

[DRM]

Separatey, Thom said that underexposure of whatever is under the focus sensor being used (including with subject detection) would reduce accuracy of Z9 AF.

https://www.zsystemuser.com/nikon-z-system-news-and/reader-questions-answered.html

This is where I think the difference comes from. Perhaps those that Thom Hogan was communicating with for whatever reason are exposing their sensor to less light than he does. The fact that they used Auto WB was not causal at all.

It should also be noted that “low light” can be subjective and mean different things to different people. I’ve read comments on low light ranging from people who think of it as anything that forces them to shoot a properly exposed photo at or above ISO 800 to comments from people who think of it as shooting in light where they can’t see their hands. It’s no wonder people’s opinions are all over the place on low light AF capabilities.

 

[Alistair]

I've actually found that with the 2.1 FW, I'm getting a faster af lock with subject detection off, at least when I have a bird against a blank sky. I did some trials last weekend and it's repeatable, against the same blank sky, the af with subject detection on (animal) hunts more and takes longer to lock focus on an osprey. Turning subject detection off, af lock is faster and less hunting. This is with the FTZ2, 600 EFL with 1.4tc, YMMV. AF set to wide area large.

Actually that makes a lot of sense. In this scenario, subject detection is just complicating a simple task for the camera.

 

[Chris K]

I was curious whether the Z9's EVF view affected AF performance, too, because I had experience with the Z6 improving its performance with a nice contrasty EVF. I did my own test, and documented it here:

Z9 AF Operation Observations by Thom Hogan

OK, I just did my own test. I went into a small walk-in closet with a 60W-equivalent LED and pointed the camera at some low-contrast carpet and at a colored-striped notebook that I'd say is an "easy" target for an AF sensor. Exposure was 1/500 f/5.6 ISO1600. Cameras were in Single AF...

bcgforums.com

My Z9 performed equally well with exposure simulation turned on or off. I concluded that the EVF does not affect the Z9's AF performance.

I'm not holding myself up as some sort of authority, but my results were the opposite of Thom's and my results were repeatable on my Z6 and Z9.

Please do your own tests and draw your own conclusions! This is really easy to test for yourself if you have a windowless room and two minutes.

 

[bleirer]

I was curious whether the Z9's EVF view affected AF performance, too, because I had experience with the Z6 improving its performance with a nice contrasty EVF. I did my own test, and documented it here:

Z9 AF Operation Observations by Thom Hogan

OK, I just did my own test. I went into a small walk-in closet with a 60W-equivalent LED and pointed the camera at some low-contrast carpet and at a colored-striped notebook that I'd say is an "easy" target for an AF sensor. Exposure was 1/500 f/5.6 ISO1600. Cameras were in Single AF...

bcgforums.com

My Z9 performed equally well with exposure simulation turned on or off. I concluded that the EVF does not affect the Z9's AF performance.

I'm not holding myself up as some sort of authority, but my results were the opposite of Thom's and my results were repeatable on my Z6 and Z9.

Please do your own tests and draw your own conclusions! This is really easy to test for yourself if you have a windowless room and two minutes.

Though I think they are talking about the dual stream, where the data that feeds the EVF is split, so in that case it wouldn't matter if the evf was turned on or off or set to simulate an optical viewfinder, the data is still the same.

 

[Chris K]

I suspect that's true as well, but a test is the best proof. Anyone with a Z9 who is curious should just bring their camera to a dark room and test for themselves.

 

[Whiskeyman]

I agree and have commented on this before. A lot of wildlife shooters who have never owned a pro level camera bought the Z9 because it's the only way to get adequate AF performance in a Nikon MILC body. People don't understand that as you step up to the pro level cameras they are more, not less difficult to use than "consumer" level cameras. Add all of the hype around the Z9 and you have a lot of disenchanted folks. The Z9 does NOT live up to the hype. But IMO it is in fact the best product Nikon has released to-date.

Then, could it be that this is even more hype?

I sometimes shoot local water ski tournaments for a friend; using the Z9, I had a better shot-in-focus rate (over the D850) by a factor of between four and five times. (If I got really picky, the Z9 keeper factor would probably be even higher.) I used the eye AF settings of the Z9 to get around the AF issues caused by the water spray that caused many missed shots with the D850.

To realize benefits of using the Z9, one certainly doesn't need to be a rocket surgeon. I know, because I are not one!

 

[Woodpecker]

If it hasn't changed from DSLR to MILC I would thing the PC settings can't have anything to do with AF performance.

1. AF takes place BEFORE the image data takes its way from the sensor to the buffer and from there to the card, any manipulation to the image data caused by camera setting takes place at the earliest when the image is taken or even later.
2. To my knowledge - which is limited the DSLR world - the PC settings like some other settings as well apply to NON-RAW shooting only.

 

[Chris K]

Then, could it be that this is even more hype?

I sometimes shoot local water ski tournaments for a friend; using the Z9, I had a better shot-in-focus rate (over the D850) by a factor of between four and five times. (If I got really picky, the Z9 keeper factor would probably be even higher.) I used the eye AF settings of the Z9 to get around the AF issues caused by the water spray that caused many missed shots with the D850.

To realize benefits of using the Z9, one certainly doesn't need to be a rocket surgeon. I know, because I are not one!

Agreed. The Z9 isn't just the highest-performance camera Nikon has produced, but it's also considerably easier to shoot than previous high-end Nikon bodies. Set a Z9 to subject detection and Area AF, and so long as your person or animal is in frame, you have a good chance at getting a nicely-focused photo.

For an experienced photographer the workload is considerably lower. For the inexperienced photographer you'll get many more keepers. Either way, it's easier to shoot a Z9 than a "consumer" Z body like the Z5, not harder. The only conceit with the Z9 is that you know how to set the camera to Area AF, subject detection, P exposure, and auto ISO... "green box mode". Which I don't think is too much to assume. Those might even be the OOTB defaults?

EDIT: That said, a Z6-sized body with the Z9's subject detection will be a massive hit for Nikon, obviosuly!

 

[bleirer]

If it hasn't changed from DSLR to MILC I would thing the PC settings can't have anything to do with AF performance.

1. AF takes place BEFORE the image data takes its way from the sensor to the buffer and from there to the card, any manipulation to the image data caused by camera setting takes place at the earliest when the image is taken or even later.
2. To my knowledge - which is limited the DSLR world - the PC settings like some other settings as well apply to NON-RAW shooting only.

You have to pause this vid a lot to get the idea, but this dual stream idea seems to be the basis for the claims about autofocus. With the dual stream it seems the af which is happening with data coming out of the sensor is split into both the EVF/rear screen and the writing of the image data, so both can happen simultaneously. Not proof, but raises the possibility since it is different from the methods used on other cameras.

Nikon Z9 'Dual-Stream' Tech Records and Displays Images with No Lag

It can display and record data simultaneously with no lag.

petapixel.com

 

[Wim Bosch]

Hoi Steve

What are the abbreviations for FWIW and AWB

Finally, FWIW, I have used AWB with the Z9 and don't have most of the AF problems with it I see others having.

Wim Bosch

 

[Ken Miracle]

Thanks, Steve. Sounds perfect to me. I love challenges and don't mind knowing more at the end of the day than I did at the beginning. I'm going to buy one anyways first time BH or Adorama has one in stock. You do great work, Steve.

Great site

FYI I have had a lot of camera stores Mikes, Glazers, Murphys and more e mail me that they now have the Z9 in stock. There are many more options than B&H or Adorama.

 

[Ken Miracle]

Hoi Steve

What are the abbreviations for FWIW and AWB

Finally, FWIW, I have used AWB with the Z9 and don't have most of the AF problems with it I see others having.

Wim Bosch

Steve may not see this since he was not tagged and he is out of the country right now. FWIW is for what it is worth and AWB is Auto White Balance

 

[Roy]

In his Z System user blog Tom Hogan recently posted "I've long had a back and forth with some about how well the Z9 focuses in low light. My results seem better than their experience. When it finally sunk into my head that the focus decision wasn't coming from a pre-Picture Control data stream, a little Aha! moment happened: what's your Picture Control? Since then I've surveyed the folk I was debating with. They're all using the Auto Picture Control and haven't really changed any parameters. I'm using the Neutral Picture Control with one parameter changed: Sharpening. While it's really difficult to get any repeatable, controlled evidence that this creates a difference, it sure seems like a clear difference when I change between Auto (at defaults) and Neutral (sharpened considerably) in a low contrast scene of 1/40, f/2.8, ISO 3200"

Have any Nikon Mirrorless (particularly Z9) shooters tried adjusting the picture control settings - for example increasing sharpness, contrast and clarity by +3 and brightness by +1 or +2 AND seen any difference in low light performance?

I will be trying my own tests. But I am interested to see if others have conducted similar tests and this might save some time.
Obviously I shoot RAW and I entirely ignore these settings and any embedded JPGs when I process the images.

Picture Control takes place after the image is taken and does not effect focus.
Once the Z9 has grabbed the image its processed by Nikons' expeed and sent to the EVF back screen and cards...

 

[Bob Hullinger]

You have to pause this vid a lot to get the idea, but this dual stream idea seems to be the basis for the claims about autofocus. With the dual stream it seems the af which is happening with data coming out of the sensor is split into both the EVF/rear screen and the writing of the image data, so both can happen simultaneously. Not proof, but raises the possibility since it is different from the methods used on other cameras.

Nikon Z9 'Dual-Stream' Tech Records and Displays Images with No Lag

It can display and record data simultaneously with no lag.

petapixel.com

Moore's law - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Here are couple of interesting things for who enjoys the nerds eye view about why things get better and faster and why there are more lanes for traffic to travel in processors. Socionet is the company to give credit for the performance of the Expeed processor. Nikon designs the camera but Socionet creates the algorithms and CPU that makes everything happen.

Moore's Law is the biggest reason why everything gets better very quickly.

This is a small part of the Expeed WIKI post that is interesting if anyone is curious.

"The Nikon Expeed image/video processors (often styled EXPEED) are media processors for Nikon's digital cameras. They perform a large number of tasks: Bayer filtering, demosaicing, image sensor corrections/dark-frame subtraction, image noise reduction, image sharpening, image scaling, gamma correction, image enhancement/Active D-Lighting, colorspace conversion, chroma subsampling, framerate conversion, lens distortion/chromatic aberration correction, image compression/JPEG encoding, video compression, display/video interface driving, digital image editing, face detection, audio processing/compression/encoding and computer data storage/data transmission.

Expeed's multi-processor system on a chip solution integrates an image processor in multi-core processor architecture, with each single processor-core able to compute many instructions/operations in parallel. Storage and display interfaces and other modules are added and a digital signal processor (DSP) increases the number of simultaneous computations. An on-chip 32-bit microcontroller initiates and controls the operation and data transfers of all processors, modules and interfaces and can be seen as the main control unit of the camera.

In each generation Nikon uses different versions for its professional and consumer DSLRs / MILCs, whereas its compact cameras use totally different architectures. This is different from for example Canons DIGIC: its professional DSLRs double the processors of its consumer DSLR series. The Expeed is an application-specific integrated circuit (ASIC) built by Socionext specifically for Nikon designs according to Nikon specifications."

Management Policy | About Socionext | Socionext Inc.

Moore's law - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[CoyoteCreationsNW]

The Z9 is a great camera, but in my experience - both from what I read in my e-mail box and online, as well as watching people in workshops - the biggest "problem" with the Z9 is that it's more camera than people are used to. There are a lot of Z9 shooters in over their head and when the camera doesn't live up to they hype, they blame it and not their poor understanding of how to use it. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the Z9 is perfect - it has its flaws and there is a lot that could stand improvement - but overall much of the negativity is overblown.

Steve, it is not just the newer photographers. I shot with a D5 extensively, mostly runway and studio fashion back when I worked for a living. Also used a D850 and currently have a Z7 ii in addition to the Z9, which arrived last December, 7 months ago. I used an adapted 500 mm PF for some time and now have the 400 2.8 TC so my issues are not lens related. If you aske me what area focus modes I will use on a shoot, my answer would have to be "I don't know, Check back after I try a few today" I am still trying out different combinations of Back button focus with 3D, dynamic area small & auto area small on various function buttons. The best combinations seem to vary with subject and location, especially background. The Z9 is better than any of the DSLRs I used and I love it, except when I am calling it unreapeatable names.

 

[fcotterill]

It's clear the processors, sensor and evf are closely integrated in the designs of these high performance Mirrorless cameras.
Socionext upgraded its fab processing last year for custom CPUs, which may well have helped to improve the EXPEED7 performance, including its heat management.

https://bcgforums.com/index.php?threads/z9-rumored-specs-are-out.9744/post-98840

Here are couple of interesting things for who enjoys the nerds eye view about why things get better and faster and why there are more lanes for traffic to travel in processors. Socionet is the company to give credit for the performance of the Expeed processor. Nikon designs the camera but Socionet creates the algorithms and CPU that makes everything happen.

Moore's Law is the biggest reason why everything gets better very quickly.

This is a small part of the Expeed WIKI post that is interesting if anyone is curious.

"The Nikon Expeed image/video processors (often styled EXPEED) are media processors for Nikon's digital cameras. They perform a large number of tasks: Bayer filtering, demosaicing, image sensor corrections/dark-frame subtraction, image noise reduction, image sharpening, image scaling, gamma correction, image enhancement/Active D-Lighting, colorspace conversion, chroma subsampling, framerate conversion, lens distortion/chromatic aberration correction, image compression/JPEG encoding, video compression, display/video interface driving, digital image editing, face detection, audio processing/compression/encoding and computer data storage/data transmission.

Expeed's multi-processor system on a chip solution integrates an image processor in multi-core processor architecture, with each single processor-core able to compute many instructions/operations in parallel. Storage and display interfaces and other modules are added and a digital signal processor (DSP) increases the number of simultaneous computations. An on-chip 32-bit microcontroller initiates and controls the operation and data transfers of all processors, modules and interfaces and can be seen as the main control unit of the camera.

In each generation Nikon uses different versions for its professional and consumer DSLRs / MILCs, whereas its compact cameras use totally different architectures. This is different from for example Canons DIGIC: its professional DSLRs double the processors of its consumer DSLR series. The Expeed is an application-specific integrated circuit (ASIC) built by Socionext specifically for Nikon designs according to Nikon specifications."

Management Policy | About Socionext | Socionext Inc.

Moore's law - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Ad Astra]

Must be a decade or so ago that the concept of sharpening the EVF picture helped with autofocus. Olympus users were setting sharpening high in picture mode to help with autofocus. Personally I never found this helped the autofocus on my Olympus camera. Thom is a fan of Olympus cameras so no doubt the Olympus concept about setting picture modes is where his idea came from to use it on the Z9. When I first read Thom's article I thought about my Olympus experience and have not tried it on my Z9.

 

[Wim Bosch]

Steve may not see this since he was not tagged and he is out of the country right now. FWIW is for what it is worth and AWB is Auto White Balance

Thanks Ken