Improvement in keeper rate with the Sony a1 vs Nikon D850 for these BIF conditions?

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santiago

santiago

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Hi,

For those of you that have made the transition... could you please kindly comment on how much of an improvement in your keeper rate there is when shooting the a1 vs the D850 specifically for BIF in these conditions: (i) small bird, (ii) moving very fast and unexpectedly particularly at take-off and (iii) with a busy background i.e. bird camouflaged on take-off.

My photography is very narrow (mainly focused on capturing red grouse in flight). The initial focus acquisition is very difficult: the bird is hidden in the heather and it suddenly bursts into life (have discussed more about it on this thread). With the D850 I have become very frustrated as the keeper rate is extremely low. The main issue is that the focus acquisition does not happen fast enough, the only chance is to pre-focus when possible if you see the bird's hiding spot.

I shoot with a Nikon AF-S 300mm f/2.8G IF-ED VR so perhaps one much less expensive option would be to try a Nikon 500mm f5.6E PF ED VR AF-S lens, which is lighter and then you have a bit more time to focus with the extra focal length.

I am willing to "pay the price" quite literally for the move to the Sony system and stop missing chances... but I guess I want to make sure the improvement is noticeable enough!

Many thanks in advance, best regards,
Santiago
 
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My keeper rate with the a1 in those scenarios isn't stellar, but man, WAY higher than with the D850. It was a rare day I got a keeper in that scenario with the D850 - as you say, the bird is moving faster than the AF system can adjust. The a1 isn't perfect, but it's much better. If you can get a tracking box on the bird (even if it's partially covered) and it takes off, even better.

Here are a few examples, Not exactly the same as what you describe, but pretty darn close. First is this roller feeding. They takeoff and zip every which direction. Not all of these attempts were sharp, that's for sure, but enough were that I was very pleased.

roller.jpg
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Next a couple of kingfishers. This first was similar to what you describe - it was against heavy vegetation. I locked on with tracking and followed as the darted off. Most in the series has a nice, sharp eyeball.

azkf.jpg
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The nest kingfisher was flying back and forth form the nest. I'd lock on with tracking while he perched and follow as he flew. Really good keeper rate with these.

pkfsher.jpg
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Finally, a killdeer in flight - again, very fast and agile on the wing. If I kept it in the viewfinder (no easy task), I was able to get keepers. Again, not anywhere near 100%, but a few good ones with each flight.

kdbif copy.jpg
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i don't own an a1 (although i've tried it out), but scanning your other post, i suspect a top end mirrorless using a wide area or full frame af mode is likely to help you hit focus on a bird poping unexpectedly into view at close range. that's a hard shot to get with a dslr.
 
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I don't shoot an A1 either but wonder what focus mode you are using with the D850? In my experience AF speed with the 850 is not an issue unless you rely on the camera to choose the subject. Group area avoids any delay time because the camera doesn't have to "think". Also for a given FOV a longer lens and shooting from farther away reduces the relative/apparent speed of the target.
 
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i only read the original post in the other thread, but he mentioned he was having a hard time keeping the focus point on the bird. i think you are right, group is probably your best bet (or maybe auto, but i don't have any experience with that), but if you can't keep the focus point on the bird, you need some sort of area mode
 
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santiago said:
Hi,

For those of you that have made the transition... could you please kindly comment on how much of an improvement in your keeper rate there is when shooting the a1 vs the D850 specifically for BIF in these conditions: (i) small bird, (ii) moving very fast and unexpectedly particularly at take-off and (iii) with a busy background i.e. bird camouflaged on take-off.

My photography is very narrow (mainly focused on capturing red grouse in flight). The initial focus acquisition is very difficult: the bird is hidden in the heather and it suddenly bursts into life (have discussed more about it on this thread). With the D850 I have become very frustrated as the keeper rate is extremely low. The main issue is that the focus acquisition does not happen fast enough, the only chance is to pre-focus when possible if you see the bird's hiding spot.

I shoot with a Nikon AF-S 300mm f/2.8G IF-ED VR so perhaps one much less expensive option would be to try a Nikon 500mm f5.6E PF ED VR AF-S lens, which is lighter and then you have a bit more time to focus with the extra focal length.

I am willing to "pay the price" quite literally for the move to the Sony system and stop missing chances... but I guess I want to make sure the improvement is noticeable enough!

Many thanks in advance, best regards,
Santiago
Click to expand...
Everything Steve already said. I moved from a D850 to the a1 and yes the a1 is significantly better. If you can afford it I suggest buying an a1 and a lens that fits your needs and give it a try. Once you figure out the settings which is now easy that Steve has an a1 guide out and be ready to smile! The amount of keepers I have now compared to the past is night and day. You will find yourself at the computer being super picky as to what you keep and what you don't. You now will have many wing positions and backgrounds to choose from because you will have so many in focus shots. I can't recall how many amazing shots with the D850 I didn't capture because the perfect wing and or background was one in the series that wasn't tack sharp. That is mostly not an issue with the a1. That is the very reason I switched systems. I loved my Nikon gear but once I no longer had disappointment when going through my cards it was a no brainer to make the change.
 
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Steve - Thank you so much, not only I get the great advice but those wonderful pictures as a bonus! It will give me peace of mind that if the a1 cannot do it, perhaps the problem cannot be solved!

John - Thank you very much for taking the time to understand the situation by going to the other thread and for the most helpful advice. My impression is that as Steve put it "the bird is moving faster than the AF can adjust" and this applies to all focus modes, in my experience Group AF gives you the best chance but very low percentage success ratio still

NorthernFocus - Thank you as well! I think you are right and maybe the longer lens could help, you have a bit more time and the background gets less busy usually

dtibbals - That is so helpful! Thank you. The bottom line is that we are all going to end up making this move... so I might as well save myself a lot of frustration and don't delay the inevitable...

And to all of you - what Sony lens would you recommend for a situation like this? I am thinking of FE 400mm F2.8 GM OSS for this situation, a bit longer than what I now use

I attach a recent keeper which might help to explain the "problem" better:
850_2549.jpg
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I could never get Swallows with my D 850 + 500 PF
With A1 + 200-600 I am able to get Swallows pretty well ( using Zone) though the keeper rate is not very high .
While this may not be the scenario you are looking for A1 does get the job done for BIF even for small birds
 
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it will be interesting to see how well Sony, Canon and Nikon technology matures What are the strengths and weakness of each.
 
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Venkatesh VT said:
I could never get Swallows with my D 850 + 500 PF
With A1 + 200-600 I am able to get Swallows pretty well ( using Zone) though the keeper rate is not very high .
While this may not be the scenario you are looking for A1 does get the job done for BIF even for small birds
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Thank you very much! That is kind of my situation at the moment... the ones I get are almost by accident, pre-focusing helps a tiny bit but rarely possible
 
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The original question specifically asked about A1 performance compared to D850. My question is why not consider the Z9 as a replacement for the D850? From most reviews I've seen it seems the Z9 is more or less equal to A1 under these conditions? And the Z9 is less expensive, and you can hang on to your current Nikon lenses.
 
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Rassie said:
The original question specifically asked about A1 performance compared to D850. My question is why not consider the Z9 as a replacement for the D850? From most reviews I've seen it seems the Z9 is more or less equal to A1 under these conditions? And the Z9 is less expensive, and you can hang on to your current Nikon lenses.
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Wow that would save tons of $$$, can you expand a bit Rassie please on why under the conditions it would be more or less equal to a1? Thank you!!!
 
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santiago said:
Wow that would save tons of $$$, can you expand a bit Rassie please on why under the conditions it would be more or less equal to a1? Thank you!!!
Click to expand...
Much as I would love to answer you, I don't own a Z9. Let's hope Steve can chime in here since he owns both A1 and Z9. I've only read some of the reviews posted on the Internet and to me it seemed to be pretty close to the A1 in terms of AF tracking performance.
 
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santiago said:
Wow that would save tons of $$$, can you expand a bit Rassie please on why under the conditions it would be more or less equal to a1? Thank you!!!
Click to expand...

i think your problem isn't so much the d850, but how the d850 af system works. you need a camera that can find the bird for you. the z9 (and a1 and r5/r6/r3) does this. how well it will work vs the a1 in these specific conditions is an open question, but it will undoubtedly be significantly better than the d850.
 
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Rassie said:
Much as I would love to answer you, I don't own a Z9. Let's hope Steve can chime in here since he owns both A1 and Z9. I've only read some of the reviews posted on the Internet and to me it seemed to be pretty close to the A1 in terms of AF tracking performance.
Click to expand...
Thank you very much Rassie!
Steve please?! We might be talking about saving a marriage here...
 
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even when working with the z6ii which isn't super good at action imo, i found that it's strong suit was grabbing the dog "pop up" (unexpected jump into the air) in my frame. the z9 is dramatically better than the z6ii.
 
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John Navitsky said:
i think your problem isn't so much the d850, but how the d850 af system works. you need a camera that can find the bird for you. the z9 (and a1 and r5/r6/r3) does this. how well it will work vs the a1 in these specific conditions is an open question, but it will undoubtedly be significantly better than the d850.
Click to expand...
I think this really nails the issue I am having...
 
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You can always rent a Z9 and try it on your existing lens. Looks like one of your issues is lower light levels which can really slow down the AF in dslrs (D6 excepted). The Z9 has surprized me as the AF seems to work almost as well in low light as it does on sunny days. I never shot an A1 so I can't compare but the Z9 AF does very well and most of the reports I've read from people whose opinions I respect say the 2 are very close in their AF capabilities. If you rent a Z9 don't forget the FTZ2! I'm waiting to see what the Nikon 200-600 is going to look like when Nikon finally gets around to it. I'm hoping it's as good as the Sony version or better.
 
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Warren D said:
You can always rent a Z9 and try it on your existing lens. Looks like one of your issues is lower light levels which can really slow down the AF in dslrs (D6 excepted). The Z9 has surprized me as the AF seems to work almost as well in low light as it does on sunny days. I never shot an A1 so I can't compare but the Z9 AF does very well and most of the reports I've read from people whose opinions I respect say the 2 are very close in their AF capabilities. If you rent a Z9 don't forget the FTZ2! I'm waiting to see what the Nikon 200-600 is going to look like when Nikon finally gets around to it. I'm hoping it's as good as the Sony version or better.
Click to expand...
Thank you very much Warren! Looking for a Z9 to rent, it certainly sounds worth a try
 
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santiago said:
Thank you very much Rassie!
Steve please?! We might be talking about saving a marriage here...
Click to expand...

My keeper rate is between a little higher and noticeably higher with the a1. It really depends on the bird. The Z9 would do a better job than the D850 (probably better than the d6 for this) but so far my BIF experience with the Z9 puts it a notch below the a1. Some of that has to do with how the AF system is implemented, subject detection in particular, so it may improve in time. Right now, the a1 has proven better for me for BIF work - I just get more keepers (and I'm more familiar with Nikon's AF than Sony's).

Also, looking at your sample shot, the Z9's subject detection might struggle - it doesn't like it when the eye, face, and body are similar in color. (I'm working on that section of the mirrorless AF book now and it's going to be about 20 pages in total - there's a lot to subject detection!) I think the camera would get it on the ground but there's a good chance it'll lose it when it takes off. This may happen with the a1 as well, but I think it's less likely.

Also, I'd echo the idea of a rental. We can speculate all day long about what will or won't work, but in the end what counts is how it works in the field. It's all guesswork from the keyboard :)
 
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