Steve’s guide will give you a winning setup however to be honest to really understand how to use and maximize any camera it will take more time than a couple of days. I’m sure you will be impressed but keep that in mind.
Improvement in keeper rate with the Sony a1 vs Nikon D850 for these BIF conditions?
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santiago
Active member
Very wise indeed... it is really a test to try to gauge the potential, that is the goal
arbitrage
Well-known member
For the Grouse IF I would experiment with Wide (non-tracking), Zone (non-tracking, and Wide or Zone with Tracking. If you can see the grouse while it is in the grass then using Small Flex Spot or Expand Flex Spot with Tracking may work really well. Target that onto the grouse, keep AF-C engaged and fire when it launches. If you can't see it ahead of time then I'd go for one of the non-tracking Wide or Zone (Zone if you can be accurate enough to get that area onto it, otherwise Wide to have the camera find it wherever it is on the sensor if your targeting/panning is not accurate enough for Zone).
Personally I use AF Tracking sensitivity at 1. But I'm not sure this really matters all that much. Last weekend I shot swallows and I did about 1/2 hr on 1 and 1/2 hour on 5 and didn't really notice a difference in keepers.
That's a tough choice to be sure. The problem is, there's no way to know if / when the Z9 will catch up. As I've said before, the battle cry of Nikon Z users is, "Firmware will fix it!" but that's not always the case (just ask Z6/7 users). My advice is to buy the camera that's doing what you want it to do now, not buy the one you hope will eventually work.
That said, the Z9 is still a great camera and although my BIF keeper rate is higher with the a1, that's the ONLY place it's higher. For pretty much every other type of wildlife target, the Z9 is great and I have no complaints. So, unless BIF is your main pursuit, I think the Z9 is a great choice - especially if you have a lot of glass. Also, please don't misunderstand - Z9 vs a1 BIF performance isn't binary; both cameras work well and can capture amazing BIF shots, the a1 just captures a few more of them in my experience.
So, basically if you do a ton of BIF, I think you'l be happier with the a1, if BIF is a smaller part of what you do, I think you'll be happy with either camera.
John Navitsky
Well-known member
also, i suspect most people will be happy with an a1, r3 or z9, REGARDLESS of what they are shooting
DanG
Well-known member
Steve,
Will your new z9 book include AF strategies for coastline groups of birds in flight? I’m very interested in improving my technique where for example small shore birds are engaged with crashing waves. I’m shooting with the large box and animal detection. Thanks.
Will your new z9 book include AF strategies for coastline groups of birds in flight? I’m very interested in improving my technique where for example small shore birds are engaged with crashing waves. I’m shooting with the large box and animal detection. Thanks.
It's possible that the Z9 overlay just isn't keeping up - they'd had that issue in the past. However, I was thinking the same thing and looked over about a hundred different shots couple weeks ago. I looked at where the camera said the AF area was (looking at the image on the back of the camera) and compared that to the sharpest part of the photo in Lightroom. I went through one by one and, overall, if the camera showed the AF point on a given spot, that was the sharpest point. I may re-test this with another type of bird (these were mostly long-necked bird and the Z9 really struggles with those in flight).
Also, keep in mind that often focusing on the body will still yield a very sharp eye - especially if the bird is flying parallel to you. There's also DoF to consider. I tend to fill the frame most of the time so any focus errors are very obvious. Below is a quick screen grab from Lightroom to give you an idea of what I try for (lol, don't always get, but try for!). None of those are cropped (yes, I do get some clipped feathers sometimes).
You can only see EXIF info for this image if you are logged in.
From my experience with other shooters, the bird is usually less than half this size (usually about a quarter TBH) in the frame and this gives them a lot of extra DOF to play with. Not saying that applies to you, just what I've seen.
I also bring this up because I have seen a few "reviews" where the reviewer was amazed at the accuracy of the camera, but the birds were so heavily cropped that as long as focus was anywhere on the bird, it would be fine thanks to the extra DoF at that distance. These are all tack-sharp at the eye, but only beaucse I had subject detection off. Subject detection had a terrible time finding the face and eye and would constantly focus on the body - putting the keeper rate to zero. The a1 can struggle with these kinds of shots too, but it gets it more often than not. One reason is that the a1 only looks for faces and eye, whereas the Z9 looks for faces, bodies, and eyes. This means that even if I have something like Small Wide on the face of the bird, if it doesn't see the face or eye but does see the body, it'll move AF to the body. (With subject detection, as long as a wide AF area is anywhere on the subject, subject detection has priority and can place the AF area where it wants on that target). With the a1, if the camera doesn't see the face or the eye, it just tracks normally and doesn't prioritize the body.
I think a HUGE improvement for the Z9 would be an option that told subject detection to ONLY look for faces and eyes and not bodies. That way, you can try to keep the AF area where it belongs and if the camera sees the face/eye, it'll refine the focus area - if not, at least you still have a shot at a sharp image. The way it works now, if the camera doesn't see the face/eye and goes for the body, it can subvert any chance you have at a sharp series.
Sorry, probably more explanation than you needed!
It won't get that specific. The problem is, if I'm going to do shoreline birds against crashing waves, I also have to do shoreline birds without waves, shoreline birds against trees, shoreline birds running, etc. There's just no way to cover every scenario.
Instead, the book explains how the AF areas (and subject detection) work and how they will generally behave. Once you understand how they "think" it's pretty easy to figure out the settings in the field
For the crashing waves though, I think I'd try to use Wide S with subject detection or maybe 3D - as long as subject detection was consistently seeing the bird. If subject detection is not finding the bird that well, I'd skip it and try Dynamic Small. The problem is, the waves will randomly block the target either way, so there's no perfect setup. Best bet is to keep the cameras attention narrowed down as much as possible to just the target bird. The larger the AF area, the tougher that is.
John Navitsky
Well-known member
sounds like a good candidate for:
Natural Art Images: Brad Hill: My Nikon Z 9 Firmware Update Wishlist
Field Tests by Brad Hill - Wildlife Photographer. Field test of the Nikon V1. Nikon Cameras, Nikon Lenses, Nikon Accessories.
www.naturalart.ca
abc123brian
Well-known member
No, that explanation was incredibly helpful and it just solved half of what I was trying to figure out regarding the AF. For a lot of subjects, I can see torso detection having an advantage, but on a long neck bird flying towards you, that makes perfect sense. Even more so since there seems to be a slight hesitation to lock on the eye while grabbing the torso immediately. That would be a useful feature to add.
LOL, if you like that, just wait till you see the subject detection section for the Z9 in the mirrorless AF book! It's between 5000 and 6000 words right now and I'm still tweaking it! There's a LOT of idiosyncrasies with subject detection and knowing when to use or not use it makes a huge difference in keepers
John Navitsky
Well-known member
thelordofthelight
Well-known member
The D850 is 4-5 year old technology. While very good for most situations, subjects with a high degree of difficulty or requiring fast focus will be very challenging. The D5, D6, and Z9 are all better in terms of AF speed.
Looking at the current flagship options, there are small differences in performance between the A1, Z9, and R3. None of them are perfect all the time, and certainly not with subjects that are very fast moving and with difficult subject acquisition. Often it is subject and situation specific so for a concrete answer, you need volume with each camera and the same subject. For example, I had a couple of friends with a Z9 and R3 at a zoo. One particular subject involved focus on a bright reflection on the subject rather than the eye for both cameras, but most of the time AF was perfect for both cameras. I would not infer performance on pheasant or grouse based on a shorebird - each subject takes testing.
There are also techniques that can help. For example, 3D tracking works best with color. An example I saw from Nikon yesterday in a webinar for NPS members recommended focus on a tennis ball rather than a dog catching the ball because the ball was a unique color and easier to track. The lens can also make a difference as some lenses are faster focusing than others. (This program was just developed and will be delivered by Nikon dealers over the next few months.)
I'd start with the Z9 for the kind of subject you referenced. It could save you thousands of dollars. A couple of days ago I posted a link to a friend on Nikonians who was selling a surplus Z9 camera at a fair price.
John Navitsky
Well-known member
i've been chewing on this, and i'm starting to not agree.
so it seems like nikon's system is a hierarchy of eyes > head > body.
so if it can't detect the eyes, it should move to the head. if it can't figure out the head, it should move to the body. if executed accurately, it seems like this should be a smart way to go.
the problem seems to be when it can't make sense of the object.
i would suggest that closest subject priority would get you a wingtip, which is probably not what you want, at least with the way it works today where it consider the whole subject, not just what's in the box.
i wonder if a better improvement would be to make the bounding box hard. that is to say, STILL use subject detection, still *consider* the subject outside the box as part of subject identification, however only focus on what's in the box.
this would be similar to how it works with subject detection off (where it focuses on the closest item in the box), but with the added benefit of opportunistically prioritizing it's understanding of the subject.
ymmv
abc123brian
Well-known member
That sounds like it will be a significant help and looking forward to it. So far I’ve left subject detect on all the time and while it has been working very well, there are situations where it did not like the the example you mentioned. Working during the week, I normally don‘t have a lot of opportunities to test and play with trying to figure things out.LOL, if you like that, just wait till you see the subject detection section for the Z9 in the mirrorless AF book! It's between 5000 and 6000 words right now and I'm still tweaking it! There's a LOT of idiosyncrasies with subject detection and knowing when to use or not use it makes a huge difference in keepers
The Nikon priority is actually Body/Head/Eye. With this approach it continues to refine focus and look for focus targets of increasing detail within a known area. It also makes it quicker to pick up a subject not under a focus box but in the frame. It simply prioritizes the area selected.
Wide and Small use Nearest Subject Priority. Area looks for a subject, and with choices of multiple subjects uses the nearest subject. 3D, Dynamic and Single do not use nearest subject at all.
All the guidance on the Z9 AF system indicates users will need to change AF modes because no single mode works all the time. There are different approaches to the primary and secondary mode. Alex Rae indicated ALL of his FN buttons are programmed for AF modes and selections. But for him, it's still a work in progress.
thelordofthelight
Well-known member
You have a point. I was thinking about this whole thing on approaching subjects instead of subjects moving sideways.
abc123brian
Well-known member
i like Steve’s suggestion of being able to turn certain parts of this on or off. His example of a long necked bird flying towards you is a perfect example where it wouldn’t work if focus was on the torso. Another might be if you were shooting something like a sport with helmets and wanted to turn off eye detection to prevent it from finding eyes where there are none, but head and torso would be desirable.
Thanks
I had considered it, but you'd be surprised how much crossover there is between the Z9 and the other Z cameras. There are a few areas where there are significant differences (subject detection for one), but lots of stuff is the same. The way most of the existing AF areas modes work is a great example. The Wide, Dynamic, and Auto all work the same way when not using subject detection regardless of the camera - it's just that they work better in the Z9.
Agree 100% and I want to scream it from the rooftops
People really seem to want to use only one or two AF areas and try to force them to work for everything. With the Z cameras (not just the Z9, all of them), I've said over and over that you really need to pick the proper AF area for the best results.
In fact, those BIF shots I posted earlier are a great example. I had tried using 3D (since the birds start off perched) and 3D was having a tough time sticking since there was a lot dark patches in the background during approach and subject detection was getting on the body instead of the head. When I saw that, I quickly switched to Wide (S) and set off subject detection. All I had to do was move the AF area to where I wanted it and do my best to keep the head under it. My keeper rate went straight up. However, that's not the best approach for every subject, not even close.
As a side note, I'm finding that trying to put AF areas all over the place is a hassle. I'm shooting the Z9 like the D5/6 now. I have 3D on my Fn1 and Fn3 buttons (Fn3 for vertical) and simply select an appropriate AF area for the scene (I have that on the movie record button). I dislike having to hold down a button constantly to switch AF areas - I like having the one I'm planning to use selected and then having an alternate on top if it becomes necessary. YMMV
This is a great example of the different approaches possible. Some others are using the opposite approach - 3D as the default but using the Fn buttons to quickly change to alternate AF area modes when 3D is slow to grab the subject or the right subject. I believe that was what Alex Rae said he was using during yesterday's Nikon Z9 AF program.
I've seen similar back and forth over using the AF-On button and Back Button focus vs. using the Shutter button for focus. Several have preferred the functionality of the Shutter release for focus over AF-On, but the issue is muscle memory - especially when using multiple cameras.
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I have to say, one of my favorite action (i.e. BIF) approaches at the moment is to start with Wide L as my normal AF area and when / if I see subject detection catch on to the bird, I'll press Fn1 to jump to 3D so I can track it all over the viewfinder. I tired this approach early on, then messed with some others, and came back to it.
As you say, lots of different approaches depending on what you shoot and how you shoot it.
Don't you have to hold in the Fn1 button to stay in 3D?
Yes. However, not hard at all with Fn1. Also, I don't do it every time - if I think Wide (L) will work the entire time, I'll stick with it. However, if I think the bird may wader out of that area, switching to 3D is a better choice. In practice, it really is easy to do. You can assign that kind of thing to a lens button as well - that may work better for some people.