Improvement in keeper rate with the Sony a1 vs Nikon D850 for these BIF conditions?

[santiago]

The framing of the Olympus combo is the same as the Sony combo.
You could also look at the 100-400 Olympus lens instead of the 300 but maybe that would be too slow an aperture? What FF equivalent FOV would be your ideal to frame with? There are some other m43 options with shorter focal lengths and f/2 or f/2.8 apertures that maybe would work better? Like a 200mm that would frame at 400 FF?

From what I've read on this Olympus OM-1, for short bursts with quick acquisition it may be the best out there but for longer tracking sequences the A1 will best it in tenacious tracking.

I think 400 or 600mm FF equivalent, ideally 600mm, primes are fine as you are almost never too close. The trade-off is that the longer the focal length, the more difficult it is to get the bird centered in the frame. Also, with the A1+600mm you have 45MP vs 20MP for the OM-1+300mm. In the OM-1 option I doubt between the 300mm f4 and PL 20mm f2.8.

The A1 tracking is very good indeed, difficult to assess how much behind the OM-1 would be, I got some nice shots because of the great tracking... also missed some because not acquiring focus fast enough. If they were worth the same, I would pick the A1 I think, but I have not tested the OM-1...

Would the 500PF f5.6 be too slow? I am also thinking about that, but I think there are a few happy users here of that lens for BIF, so hopefully they will be able to shed some light. In the end the D850 is not miles and miles behind (for me) and you have a good cushion of MP if you need to crop (as with the A1).

 

[John Navitsky]

1/ The Sony A1 + FE 600mm is better at my problem than the D850, but not by enough to justify the $19,496 price tag (will quote B&H prices as of this morning throughout).

All thoughts most welcome as always and thank you again to everybody

one thing to consider is that it is going to take some time to figure out how to best leverage the camera you have to solve a tricky problem like you have. with that in mind, it is likely you can find improved techniques over time to improve success rate over time.

which is not to say i'm recommending you get an a1, but rather you might consider a z9 which should provide similar capabilities as the a1 without having to replace your existing glass and thus lower the cost.

i had a similar situation with dog sports. i was coming from a d500 and rented an a1 for a week and a half and had a similar thought -- definitely an improvement, but not enough to justify changing systems. i waited for the z9 and switched to the z9 and that is working well for me for my problem set.

 

[DavidT]

The question is with what success ratio... the D850 can do it and the A1 does it with a better ratio, but is it high enough to justify the investment... it looks tight to me at the moment

Cost vs value is subjective to what the user needs. I would assume you shoot other things than this single scenario. With that being said and being a former D850 owner the a1 excels in so many areas the two cameras can't be compared equally.

 

[faunagraphy]

Thanks to the great input received from all of you, I have concluded, subject to further advice if you are kind enough to provide it, that for the particular problem described in this thread:

1/ The Sony A1 + FE 600mm is better at my problem than the D850, but not by enough to justify the $19,496 price tag (will quote B&H prices as of this morning throughout). One factor that I weighed for this conclusion is that I found it only at the limit in terms of maneuverability when handholding while hiking on this uneven terrain (for me)

That makes complete sense. Aside from the cost, a 600mm f4 lens won't be handholdable for long.

2/ Although I have not been able to test the OM-1 + OL 300mm f4 at the problem (not available for hire here), I perhaps should take the chance at the $5,098 price tag? My main concern is that it is very difficult to frame properly with this problem and you need to crop (at least a bit) and there is not much room here with 20MP. I have asked a related question about this on a separate thread.

You do not need to spend $5k on it, though. Olympus reserves its best manufacturing standards for the 300mm Pro and the 150-400 Pro (which is expensive and has a long waiting period). For instance, each focus motor is tested individually and only the very best ones are used in the 300mm (2 motors per lens). Each lens is also assembled by hand and tested individually. Copy variation is a fact for many lenses but I have never, ever heard someone complain of having a poor copy of this lens.

My point being, you could buy one used for $1500-$1800 and be assured of quality. Olympus took long enough to release a capable body like the OM-1 that many users migrated to other systems, so there's a surplus of this excellent lens on the used market.

3/ Another option that could be in addition to or instead of 2/ is to get the Nikon 500mm PF f5.6 + MB-D18 power grip for $3,993.9. I will miss some shots for sure, but then when you get one (which you still do), you have plenty of room to crop. I have not tested the 500mm PF yet but that one is available to hire so I plan to. I do not think it makes real sense to do both 2/ and 3/ because in the end you are going to enjoy one rig more than the other one... I think I can also resell a new 2/ combo losing little money, so that would justify as it might be that 2/ is a lot better than 3/. If anybody has tested both and wants to venture an opinion, please do!

All thoughts most welcome as always and thank you again to everybody

Yes the 500 PF is a great lens that is roughly equivalent to the 300mm Pro for the Nikon F mount. In m43 terms, it offers a FOV of 375mm on DX and 250mm on FX. Also has a similar weight. Teleconverters do not suit your use case so they're a moot point.

Geoff Cooper did a nice (and fair) comparison of the two setups. Keep in mind though that he tested it with the E-M1X and the OM-1 has much better AF and is a significant improvement over the E-M1X in most respects.

Something important that slipped my mind earlier ... if you use a camera with subject detect, be it the OM-1 or the Z9, you would benefit greatly from the use of the Olympus EE-1 red dot sight. It costs like $80 and will make a HUGE difference to your photography by allowing you to follow the grouse without being restricted by the narrow FOV of your lens, or EVF panning issues.

It won't work so well with the D850 because dot sights aren't accurate and with no easy way to confirm focus, the results will be hit or miss. With subject detection, the camera does that work for you and you can reliably use the EE-1 knowing that it will keep the subject in frame (more or less at the centre) and your camera's AF will do the rest.

 

[faunagraphy]

Bottom line is if the a1 can’t do it no camera can.

This is plainly false. And also fanboyish.

Among other things, the A1's focus acquisition speed is not as fast as that of even the older Olympus E-M1X. For cases when you need to acquire focus instantly, or at a short distance, Sony cameras have limited use. They do have the best tracking and once you acquire the subject (preferably against a clean background) they do not let go.

Have a look at Fsi22's tests shared earlier. He has both systems.

 

[santiago]

That makes complete sense. Aside from the cost, a 600mm f4 lens won't be handholdable for long.


You do not need to spend $5k on it, though. Olympus reserves its best manufacturing standards for the 300mm Pro and the 150-400 Pro (which is expensive and has a long waiting period). For instance, each focus motor is tested individually and only the very best ones are used in the 300mm (2 motors per lens). Each lens is also assembled by hand and tested individually. Copy variation is a fact for many lenses but I have never, ever heard someone complain of having a poor copy of this lens.

My point being, you could buy one used for $1500-$1800 and be assured of quality. Olympus took long enough to release a capable body like the OM-1 that many users migrated to other systems, so there's a surplus of this excellent lens on the used market.



Yes the 500 PF is a great lens that is roughly equivalent to the 300mm Pro for the Nikon F mount. In m43 terms, it offers a FOV of 375mm on DX and 250mm on FX. Also has a similar weight. Teleconverters do not suit your use case so they're a moot point.

Geoff Cooper did a nice (and fair) comparison of the two setups. Keep in mind though that he tested it with the E-M1X and the OM-1 has much better AF and is a significant improvement over the E-M1X in most respects.

Something important that slipped my mind earlier ... if you use a camera with subject detect, be it the OM-1 or the Z9, you would benefit greatly from the use of the Olympus EE-1 red dot sight. It costs like $80 and will make a HUGE difference to your photography by allowing you to follow the grouse without being restricted by the narrow FOV of your lens, or EVF panning issues.

It won't work so well with the D850 because dot sights aren't accurate and with no easy way to confirm focus, the results will be hit or miss. With subject detection, the camera does that work for you and you can reliably use the EE-1 knowing that it will keep the subject in frame (more or less at the centre) and your camera's AF will do the rest.

Stellar information, thank so you so much!!!

 

[santiago]

This is plainly false. And also fanboyish.

Among other things, the A1's focus acquisition speed is not as fast as that of even the older Olympus E-M1X. For cases when you need to acquire focus instantly, or at a short distance, Sony cameras have limited use. They do have the best tracking and once you acquire the subject (preferably against a clean background) they do not let go.

Have a look at Fsi22's tests shared earlier. He has both systems.

As much as we would want one system for most things, it just does not seem to be the case at the moment... Fsi22 himself recommends the A1 in certain scenarios (when focusing further away, less busy background). Even my narrow "problem" sometimes requires close focus acquisition against busy background, sometimes it is further away with easier background...

 

[santiago]

If I may say so, let's not start an angry argument... I think he mentioned limited use in certain conditions (i) "acquire focus instantly" or (ii) "at a short distance". Fsi22 is the only person we know of that has conducted a thorough side-by-side test and those are his conclusions, very generously and well documented in my view.

He is also at pains to stress the A1 is stellar and (please correct me if I am wrong), better than the OM-1 in other conditions...

I have used the A1 and also found it superb other than in those same conditions mentioned above (I would also add busy background close to the subject). And it might still be the camera I end up getting!

 

[santiago]

You also have the A1, what is your view on its performance in the above conditions? Many thanks

 

[pochito]

As another thought, if the a1 can't do it, nothing can

Hmm...
If I cannot do it, no camera will...:(

 

[faunagraphy]

“Sony cameras have limited use”
What are you smoking? A1 is arguably the best all around mirrorless camera to date

What are you picking? Cherries?

Read my comment in full again.

Additional reading:

This explains the strengths and weaknesses of their AF algorithms (A9 vs E-M1X):

Sony A9 Vs Olympus E-M1x Focus Accuracy Tests | David McAughtry Photography

This is an AF test for birds in flight test of the flagship wildlife cameras from Sony and Olympus - the Sony A9 vs Olympus E-M1x. See which one wins!

mcaughtry.photo

Fsi's stress tests:

Olympus OM-1 vs Sony Alpha 1: Micro Four Thirds Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

Expert news, reviews and videos of the latest digital cameras, lenses, accessories, and phones. Get answers to your questions in our photography forums.

www.dpreview.com

OM vs A1 V2 - Swallows: Micro Four Thirds Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

Expert news, reviews and videos of the latest digital cameras, lenses, accessories, and phones. Get answers to your questions in our photography forums.

www.dpreview.com

According to Mirrorless Comparison's tests at the red kite feeding center, the A1 has the best AF tracking but the OM-1 is also very good and yields more keepers in a burst. 85 sharp photos in a 2 sec burst vs. 59 for the A1. Involved some projections but this certainly counters the blanket statement that "if the A1 can't do it, no camera can".

The Best Mirrorless Cameras for Birds in Flight Ranked - Mirrorless Comparison

A few years ago, our reader Alfredo suggested an idea for an article. Since we test the autofocus performance of many cameras at the same red kite feeding stations, why not publish a list of all the cameras we use with their keeper rate for birds in flight? I liked ... Read more

mirrorlesscomparison.com

Fact remains that you can't go wrong with any flagship - be it the A1, OM-1, R3 or Z9 but my problem is with blanket statements that indicate a bias toward one brand.

Speaking for myself, my ideal setup would be the Z9 + a PF lens (perhaps the 800mm PF?) but it's hard to justify this when the Z9 costs $5500, the 800 PF another $6k (?), whereas the OM-1 costs $2200 at launch price and the 300mm Pro is $1600 used.

 

[DavidT]

What are you picking? Cherries?

Read my comment in full again.

Additional reading:

This explains the strengths and weaknesses of their AF algorithms (A9 vs E-M1X):

Sony A9 Vs Olympus E-M1x Focus Accuracy Tests | David McAughtry Photography

This is an AF test for birds in flight test of the flagship wildlife cameras from Sony and Olympus - the Sony A9 vs Olympus E-M1x. See which one wins!

mcaughtry.photo

Fsi's stress tests:

Olympus OM-1 vs Sony Alpha 1: Micro Four Thirds Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

Expert news, reviews and videos of the latest digital cameras, lenses, accessories, and phones. Get answers to your questions in our photography forums.

www.dpreview.com

OM vs A1 V2 - Swallows: Micro Four Thirds Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

Expert news, reviews and videos of the latest digital cameras, lenses, accessories, and phones. Get answers to your questions in our photography forums.

www.dpreview.com

According to Mirrorless Comparison's tests at the red kite feeding center, the A1 has the best AF tracking but the OM-1 is also very good and yields more keepers in a burst. 85 sharp photos in a 2 sec burst vs. 59 for the A1. Involved some projections but this certainly counters the blanket statement that "if the A1 can't do it, no camera can".

The Best Mirrorless Cameras for Birds in Flight Ranked - Mirrorless Comparison

A few years ago, our reader Alfredo suggested an idea for an article. Since we test the autofocus performance of many cameras at the same red kite feeding stations, why not publish a list of all the cameras we use with their keeper rate for birds in flight? I liked ... Read more

mirrorlesscomparison.com

Fact remains that you can't go wrong with any flagship - be it the A1, OM-1, R3 or Z9 but my problem is with blanket statements that indicate a bias toward one brand.

Speaking for myself, my ideal setup would be the Z9 + a PF lens (perhaps the 800mm PF?) but it's hard to justify this when the Z9 costs $5500, the 800 PF another $6k (?), whereas the OM-1 costs $2200 at launch price and the 300mm Pro is $1600 used.

Here's the deal. A better overall camera that the a1 is vs anything else on the market isn't because of just one feature. The focus has been about the AF ability of the a1 but you are missing many things about the a1 that make it a better camera especially when compared to the OM-1 that have nothing to do with AF. Some choose to focus on one thing and that thing makes a camera better, so be it but that is like saying I like the color of this car so it makes it better than all other cars.

 

[faunagraphy]

Here's the deal. A better overall camera that the a1 is vs anything else on the market isn't because of just one feature. The focus has been about the AF ability of the a1 but you are missing many things about the a1 that make it a better camera especially when compared to the OM-1 that have nothing to do with AF. Some choose to focus on one thing and that thing makes a camera better, so be it but that is like saying I like the color of this car so it makes it better than all other cars.

Here's the deal. The order of comments went like this ...

1. You said, "If the A1 can't do it, no camera can." The context was AF
2. I stated that this is false (which it is) and unlike you, offered evidence to support my statement
3. Hut2 ignored the specific scenarios I described and quoted my "Sony cameras have limited use" out of context
4. It was Hut2 who said that the A1 is a better camera overall
5. You're now saying that I'm wrong because one characteristic (AF) does not impact the overall performance of a camera

... Which is an absurd argument because at no point did I make any claims, positive or negative, about the overall performance of the A1. It was Hut2 who said this.

Overall usefulness of a camera will depend on how one uses it. A1 has features like the best AF tracking, a bigger sensor and higher resolution, among other things. The OM-1 has 50fps C-AF, ProCapture modes, Live Bulb, focus stacking, programmable AF limiters, IP53 weather sealing etc. Which is better "overall" is subjective and depends on your use case.

 

[faunagraphy]

Is that the guy that shared samples with the A1 in AF-S?

Confirmation Bias In Psychology: Definition & Examples

Confirmation Bias is the tendency to look for information that supports, rather than rejects, one’s preconceptions, typically by interpreting evidence to confirm existing beliefs while rejecting or ignoring any conflicting data.

www.simplypsychology.org

 

[DavidT]

Here's the deal. The order of comments went like this ...

1. You said, "If the A1 can't do it, no camera can." The context was AF
2. I stated that this is false (which it is) and unlike you, offered evidence to support my statement
3. Hut2 ignored the specific scenarios I described and quoted my "Sony cameras have limited use" out of context
4. It was Hut2 who said that the A1 is a better camera overall
5. You're now saying that I'm wrong because one characteristic (AF) does not impact the overall performance of a camera

... Which is an absurd argument because at no point did I make any claims, positive or negative, about the overall performance of the A1. It was Hut2 who said this.

Overall usefulness of a camera will depend on how one uses it. A1 has features like the best AF tracking, a bigger sensor and higher resolution, among other things. The OM-1 has 50fps C-AF, ProCapture modes, Live Bulb, focus stacking, programmable AF limiters, IP53 weather sealing etc. Which is better "overall" is subjective and depends on your use case.

Frankly I don't have the desire or energy to debate with you. Reading your comments and saying fan boy speak volumes to your personality and your quality of contribution to this site. Enjoy your opinions and I will enjoy mine.

 

[faunagraphy]

Frankly I don't have the desire or energy to debate with you. Reading your comments and saying fan boy speak volumes to your personality and your quality of contribution to this site. Enjoy your opinions and I will enjoy mine.

Saying "my bad" would have cost you less time and energy but you do you. The quality of the information I'm sharing is plain for anyone to see, as is yours. Cheers!

 

[DavidT]

Saying "my bad" would have cost you less time and energy but you do you. The quality of the information I'm sharing is plain for anyone to see, as is yours. Cheers!

Wouldn’t say that because I don’t agree with you. You’re new here most of us aren’t. Learn some forum etiquette.

 

[santiago]

If we could all be at a bar together, I would gladly buy everybody a round or two... life is too short!
I, for one, have found all your contributions invaluable and I could not be more grateful.
Someone should ask an interesting question and perhaps we can most or even all be in agreement again!

 

[faunagraphy]

Wouldn’t say that because I don’t agree with you. You’re new here most of us aren’t. Learn some forum etiquette.

No, you should have said that because you criticized me over something I did not say. I'm not the one who needs to learn etiquette here. Projection much?

And along with learning to admit your mistakes, you also need to avoid making statements without supporting evidence, especially when they amount to superlative claims about a particular brand.

 

[DavidT]

Praise the lord for the ignore button!

 

[santiago]

Someone should ask an interesting question and perhaps we can most or even all be in agreement again!

Ok, I will give it a try...

If you had to fill the space above the chimney of a cabin close to where this bird lives, which picture of the below favourites would you choose? You can give a like if in a hurry or just make your pick and comment why...

I know this is not the place for this, but I hope I will be forgiven as it is done with good intentions...

 

[santiago]

ONE (D850, 300mm f2.8):

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[santiago]

TWO (A1, 400mm f2.8):

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[santiago]

THREE (A1, 400mm f2.8):

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[santiago]

FOUR (A1, 400mm f2.8):

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