John Navitsky
Well-known member
i've lost track of what camera we're talking about here
but on the z9, i'm using af-on for 3d. so i can go from an area mode on the shutter half-press, and have 3d take over by adding af-on.
Improvement in keeper rate with the Sony a1 vs Nikon D850 for these BIF conditions?
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i've lost track of what camera we're talking about here
but on the z9, i'm using af-on for 3d. so i can go from an area mode on the shutter half-press, and have 3d take over by adding af-on.The thing is, (as I understand it), in Wide (L) you do the tracking, not the camera. That's fine for you, Steve, but not so much for some of us. Having the camera do the tracking is the thing I appreciate most about mirrorless. So I'm trying to figure how/if I can turn camera tracking on and off while using BBAF with the Z9 (assuming I ever get one). Two back buttons makes it easy on the A1 per your excellent set-up guide.
LOL, it gets confusing!i've lost track of what camera we're talking about here
I'm still a BBAF guy, so 3D is on Fn1 & Fn3 for me
It's similar to what I did with the D5/6, so it feels natural. (And it all works, just depends how you're wired)
Kinda sorta.
If subject detection is on and identifies the subject with a Wide AF area, then it's a different ballgame. For example, if subject detection gets on the head or eye while using one of the Wide AF areas, as long as that AF area is ANYWHERE on the target (even the tail or feet) the camera will stick to the eyes. It effectively makes the area much "larger".
However, Auto AF also works well for BIF work, especially if you have a tough time getting on the subject with the smaller areas. The problem of course is that Auto may go after something else first, especially if the subject is out of focus and it gets to some branches or something first.
Also, the tracking doesn't work / activate like the a1. 3D is really the only thing close. There's not tacking / non-tracking AF areas like the a1 has. So, what I'm doing is getting on the subject with Wide, and then turning to the 3D AF area for tracking. If there were a "large" version of 3D that would help and eliminate the need to do it the way I do, but at the moment the 3D AF area is just slightly larger than a single AF point.
John Navitsky
Well-known member
I'm still a BBAF guy, so 3D is on Fn1 & Fn3 for me
It's similar to what I did with the D5/6, so it feels natural. (And it all works, just depends how you're wired)
me too. it turns out putting 3D kinda works with my BBF muscle memory
DanG
Well-known member
It won't get that specific. The problem is, if I'm going to do shoreline birds against crashing waves, I also have to do shoreline birds without waves, shoreline birds against trees, shoreline birds running, etc. There's just no way to cover every scenario.
Instead, the book explains how the AF areas (and subject detection) work and how they will generally behave. Once you understand how they "think" it's pretty easy to figure out the settings in the field
For the crashing waves though, I think I'd try to use Wide S with subject detection or maybe 3D - as long as subject detection was consistently seeing the bird. If subject detection is not finding the bird that well, I'd skip it and try Dynamic Small. The problem is, the waves will randomly block the target either way, so there's no perfect setup. Best bet is to keep the cameras attention narrowed down as much as possible to just the target bird. The larger the AF area, the tougher that is.
Thanks Steve, this is the type of photo that I enjoy shooting. I want to learn to get the focus and DOF better so that more clarity is brought to the front of the image. I’m pretty new at all this, but i enjoy learning. Long and short, I will buy your Z9 book and try to understand the way to improve.
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John Navitsky
Well-known member
arbitrage
Well-known member
That Z stuff sounds like a lot of work, I'm not sure a dummy like me could keep up with all that.
Yep...trust me...it is a headache if you are used to a better system like Sony or Canon.
I made this prediction over a year ago...if Nikon didn't totally rework the AF modes from the previous Z cameras for the Z9 then it would not be a match for the current industry standards. Well they did introduce 3D but I still found it next to useless other than taking over from Wide Area. Starting out of 3D was just a recipe in frustration. My beloved Auto from my Nikon DSLRs was just no good on the Z9. Wide Area is really the only reliable mode for action on the Z9 but I can't stand how I can't tell what portion of the Wide Area it is actually using to focus at any given time. I need my dancing green squares.
They did give it the BEAF so that is its one saving grace when combined with Wide Area.Don't get me wrong...the camera is still up there in the top tier but to be honest I'd trust my D500 in Auto AF more than the Z9 when it comes to really fast action with no time to react.
John Navitsky
Well-known member
fwiw, as a long time d500 action shooter (and i love that camera), i can say i immediately could get better results with less effort on my part with the z9… at least in the action contexts i’ve tried. and remember i have years of practice, knowledge and skill with the d500.
It's tough to say from just one example, but I have a feeling you're running into more of a physics problem than a photography one.
When using telephotos, DOF is very shallow. You can stop down to F/22 and still not even come close to having enough coverage for multiple animals, especially at close range. I was shooting some burrowing owls a near minimum focus distance with my 600 + 1.4TC and even F/11 couldn't get the beak to stay perfectly sharp when focused in the eyes!
To get multiple animals sharp at the same time, you have to have them all on the same focus plane - pure dumb luck is your friend. Stopped down can stack the deck a bit, but only if the subjects are still very close to the same focal plane.
santiago
Active member
An update...
I have been testing a Sony a1 + FE 400mm f.2.8; even if I need a lot more practice, I believe to "have seen enough” to share these preliminary thoughts (which I believe are in line with the previous comments on the thread from pretty much everybody):
1/ The “BIF problem” described at the beginning of this thread is complex, you have to accept a low keeper ratio
2/ The a1 is better at this problem than the D850 because of (in a nutshell): (i) much higher frames per second, (ii) faster focus acquisition and (iii) lower weight (relative to the D850 with an equivalent lens). Lower weight in particular makes it a lot nicer to shoot
3/ The a1 is by no means infallible; the keeper ratio is somewhat higher but not stellar (for a given level of photographer!)
4/ The Zone AF tracking seems the best for this problem but still loses the bird a good percentage of the time and hardly ever gets the bird on the ground. Spot S AF gets the bird on the ground and loses it in the air
5/ Eye detection (for this problem) did not impress me… unless you get really close on a static bird it does not seem to get the eye that often at all. It did work very well on my pointing dog (see below)
6/ I might need to get used to it but did not particularly enjoy the EVF… other than the no blackout between shots
7/ The a1 with the FE 600mm f.2.8 is the better option for this problem. It can probably be shot handheld… little chance of doing that comfortably with a D850 and a Nikon 600mm
8/ You pay top dollar for those additional keepers you get (many $$$ for few additional keepers)… it is debatable whether it is rationally worth it, particularly when there is (and it will only increase) a lot of good quality DSLR lenses coming to the second-hand market…
9/ Shooting this problem with the a1 was tremendous fun and perhaps a touch less frustrating than with the D850
Some pictures (mostly BIF):
1/
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5/
Thank you to all once more!
I have been testing a Sony a1 + FE 400mm f.2.8; even if I need a lot more practice, I believe to "have seen enough” to share these preliminary thoughts (which I believe are in line with the previous comments on the thread from pretty much everybody):
1/ The “BIF problem” described at the beginning of this thread is complex, you have to accept a low keeper ratio
2/ The a1 is better at this problem than the D850 because of (in a nutshell): (i) much higher frames per second, (ii) faster focus acquisition and (iii) lower weight (relative to the D850 with an equivalent lens). Lower weight in particular makes it a lot nicer to shoot
3/ The a1 is by no means infallible; the keeper ratio is somewhat higher but not stellar (for a given level of photographer!)
4/ The Zone AF tracking seems the best for this problem but still loses the bird a good percentage of the time and hardly ever gets the bird on the ground. Spot S AF gets the bird on the ground and loses it in the air
5/ Eye detection (for this problem) did not impress me… unless you get really close on a static bird it does not seem to get the eye that often at all. It did work very well on my pointing dog (see below)
6/ I might need to get used to it but did not particularly enjoy the EVF… other than the no blackout between shots
7/ The a1 with the FE 600mm f.2.8 is the better option for this problem. It can probably be shot handheld… little chance of doing that comfortably with a D850 and a Nikon 600mm
8/ You pay top dollar for those additional keepers you get (many $$$ for few additional keepers)… it is debatable whether it is rationally worth it, particularly when there is (and it will only increase) a lot of good quality DSLR lenses coming to the second-hand market…
9/ Shooting this problem with the a1 was tremendous fun and perhaps a touch less frustrating than with the D850
Some pictures (mostly BIF):
1/
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2/
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3/
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4/
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5/
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Thank you to all once more!
I was wondering how it was going! I will say this that the 600GM is easy to hand hold and how I use the lens the majority of the time especially with moving subjects. The a1 is a camera you have to learn as it is very advanced. I found that the more time I spent with the a1 the better it got. If you like it now you will love it once you get time learning it and best settings for different situations. So what are you going to do?
santiago
Active member
Well, it does feel like inviting the whole bar to a round, but I think I am going to have to get one! I might just have it for this and keep the D850 and the lenses just to feel like I am doing an effort to be sensible...
John Navitsky
Well-known member
did you try subject tracking? theoretically that's the best of all worlds. ie, place the point on the bird on the ground like you did with Spot, then activate focus and it should track the bird as it takes off.
that said, it's pretty contingent on the af being able to pick up the bird on the ground.
the tracking on the a1 is very good, but as you point out, not infallible.
the one downside of this approach is if you "miss", you aren't really going to get a second chance on that bird.
santiago
Active member
I did, I think the issue is that the take-off is very violent and the a1 loses the lock on the bird and then the focus area is too small for this "operator" to regain focus. I think the 600mm should help, a lot of the pictures were in focus but with the bird too far away by that time... To be fair that would also apply to the D850 but then the rig is too heavy for handholding which you need. Once you try the 20+ fps it is tough to go back to the 7 fps!
Agreed that with a clear background the tracking is unbelievably good!
Very interesting your point about the miss. Because those misses are your best chances, when you are really close to the bird... you would probably still get something if you left Zone AF, so when you change to Spot S AF you kind of risk it all... usually for nothing!
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John Navitsky
Well-known member
yah, i'm not surprised. it's a lot to ask of an af system to figure out the bird in the scrub.
fwiw, tracking with the z9 isn't too shabby if you add the "clear background" context.
in general i think once the bird gets free, more or less any of these high end mirrorless cameras will nab it pretty well. trying to get that transition is the killer problem. (but an interesting problem)
abc123brian
Well-known member
It might be worthwhile trying the Z9 for the given circumstance as well since you have Nikon Lenses already. It would be significantly cheaper for you and will perform very close.
santiago
Active member
Really well put! It also matters how quickly they nail it in my view... a1 seems to me faster than D850, but perhaps Z9 would be equally fast. All in all the weight is key though... so until Nikon has a Z mount comparable to the FE 600, Sony has the advantage (for this problem)
John Navitsky
Well-known member
yes, especially since it doesn't sounds like the a1 solves the primary problem
John Navitsky
Well-known member
camera aside, you might consider a hybrid focusing approach, having the ability to switch from single point to an area mode with the press (or release) of a button. so you can use single point while the bird is on the ground, then switch modes as it takes off.
admittedly, this is less-good than if the camera could track and i would imagine you're going to miss images directly after takeoff, but before the area mode can pick it up
santiago
Active member
Yes, other than weight... but presumably Nikon will come up with a Z mount and light 600mm, does someone know if there are any plans for that?
santiago
Active member
Agree again, it does not solve the "transition" problem reliably, no
John Navitsky
Well-known member
fwiw, a properly set up d850 using group focus, shutter set to release, can probably acquire focus just as fast. the caveat being you have to be able to get the focus point on the bird and keep it there.
John Navitsky
Well-known member
i think the problem is just it's probably a pretty explosive thing. bird is down in the scrub (camera may not even be able to aquire the subject), suddenly takes off. by the time you nab an eye, it's probably not the shot he was looking for.
John Navitsky
Well-known member
could be.
i've shot the d500 for years and have tried out the a1 for a while (and am now shooting the z9). i contend if i can get group focus on the subject it's more or less as fast as all these new cameras. but it's a ton of work with fast moving subjects. and of course it doesn't have the nuance to let you pick the right part of the object.
but again, that's just my feel.
i've shot the d500 for years and have tried out the a1 for a while (and am now shooting the z9). i contend if i can get group focus on the subject it's more or less as fast as all these new cameras. but it's a ton of work with fast moving subjects. and of course it doesn't have the nuance to let you pick the right part of the object.
but again, that's just my feel.