Jan Wegener reviews the Z9

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Steve said:
I agree on the BIF standard. It seems like the only aspect people care about - but to be fair, it is a good way to test an AF system. Most of my Z testing will use BIF simply because I think the camera can track mammals just fine - at least from what I've seen so far :) I only wish I had a few more mammals around at the moment to test.

The trick with comparing two cameras ability to find subjects though is that you have to us both at the same relative time for the same subject. Every circumstance is different. There are times I "feel" like my a1 is better with finding eyes and times I "feel" like the Z9 might have an edge. However, you'd have to have both cameras in-hand to really compare (and I will try to make that happen when the opportunities present themselves, but even then it's a very small sample size).
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This in general is good news. I don't have a dog in the fight as I am solidly staying and invested in Sony camp now and completely happy. However the fact that you can pick up a Z9 or one of Canon's new cameras and they are all on par is good enough and should make anyone in any specific brand happy. The fact that a Nikon can hang is a major step forward when compared to their other Z bodies. All the different flag ships have their own way of doing things from design, to customization and AF. I think it comes down to how you want to use a camera, what glass you already have or want that really dictates what you buy anymore. Just a month ago that wasn't the case. Exciting times!
 
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MikeS said:
Steve, Are you still using the AF-ON button for 3D once the subject is captured in Wide-area AF (L) with Subject Detection?
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Yes. However, I gave up on shutter release AF at the moment - I'm finding it's too difficult with gloves. So, I'm shooting BBAF with 3D on the back button and Wide (L) on fn1. (3D isn't programmed to the back button though, just selected as my current AF area). Fn2 has single point. It's not as elegant as my Sony setup, but it's about as good as it gets I think.

Also, I think there are a lot of people that seem to think you MUST have all the AF areas you want to use programmed to your various buttons and never vary from that. I have my AF-On button set for just focus, no areas. This allows me to use any of the AF areas I like and match them to a given scene. A quick way to do it is to program AF area section to your movie record button. It's right by the shutter and when you press and spin you can rapidly go though all the areas.
 
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MikeS said:
While I care about BIF, a great way to test the AF on a camera, I'd like to read more about the non-subject detect modes like Dynamic AF S,M and L modes which by the way, Nikon recommends in their sports set-up manual for certain sports like soccer (Dynamic area S or M ) as an example. In testing these, I have used the S and it's definitely a go-to mode for me if the subjects are distant and I've programmed the Fn1 button for this mode.
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Steve said:
I'm going to mess with them a bit, but I feel like they are more of a legacy AF area now. They essentially do what 3D does, only in a smaller area and without showing you what AF point is in use.
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I've also noticed that Nikon's sports settings manual (Z9_TG_1) recommends Dynamic-area modes in cases where I would have (naively) tried Wide area (S) switching to 3D tracking after locking on. However, since getting the Z9 I haven't yet shot events the manual addresses.

For sprinters, the manual recommends starting with Dynamic and then switching to 3D. For swimming, the camera may get distracted by splashes so it recommends Dynamic-area after the event starts.

Maybe starting out with Dynamic-area lets the camera better recognize and learn the desired subject so that it can better lock focus on what is intended?

I haven't been using Dynamic-area at all with the Z9 and haven't seen much (any?) mention of it here or in the online reviews. Now that I have the camera, I'm going to reread the sports setting manual, but I wonder anyone with more experience has extracted and implemented wisdom from this document?
 
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John Woodworth said:
I've also noticed that Nikon's sports settings manual (Z9_TG_1) recommends Dynamic-area modes in cases where I would have (naively) tried Wide area (S) switching to 3D tracking after locking on. However, since getting the Z9 I haven't yet shot events the manual addresses.

For sprinters, the manual recommends starting with Dynamic and then switching to 3D. For swimming, the camera may get distracted by splashes so it recommends Dynamic-area after the event starts.

Maybe starting out with Dynamic-area lets the camera better recognize and learn the desired subject so that it can better lock focus on what is intended?

I haven't been using Dynamic-area at all with the Z9 and haven't seen much (any?) mention of it here or in the online reviews. Now that I have the camera, I'm going to reread the sports setting manual, but I wonder anyone with more experience has extracted and implemented wisdom from this document?
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I'm not a sports shooter, so there could be a value in Dynamic I'm not seeing. The idea with Dynamic is that if the primary AF area loses the target, the other AF points in the field will take over - to me, this is really similar to what 3D does, only 3D can go all over. However, Dynamic may use a different set of criteria for tracking.

As for switching, the camera can switch from dynamic to 3D but it doesn't use focus point persistence, it just takes over from the center of the Dynamic area and not the AF point Dynamic is currently using (unless it's the center one of course :) ). So I'm not seeing the advantage to not just starting with 3D for a runner. It could be that at a distance 3D is less reliable...maybe? I can see it for swimming - I think 3D would be all over the place. Although, there's no guarantee that Dynamic wouldn't do some of the same.
 
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Steve said:
My mammal experience with it is limited though, just seems good so far. Also, with eye detection on ANY camera it can be hit or miss - even with the same species. It depends on the distance, light, angle of the face, and even if the animal is squinting (the Z9 seems pretty good at squinting so far though). I've had times with the a1 where it would easily pick up the eye on a certain species, only to find eye detection worthless the next time I encountered that same species due to the conditions. I never depend on eye AF - I always approach the animal with what should be an appropriate AF area and if I see the camera is easily recognizing the eye, then I will take advantage of eye detection.

Bummer to hear about FL - I'm kinda planning to go down there for a few weeks for some testing. Most want to know how it is with BIF, so that's were I'm going to put a lot of emphasis in my tests.
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There are still quite a few birds, but the numbers are more limited. I went to Merritt Island last weekend and saw around ten spoonbills, one or two Northern Shovelers and maybe a dozen blue winged teals. Normally there are quite a few around there. Lake Apopka Wildlife Drive has been good, but also has reduced numbers, maybe half of normal. I didn’t see them this weekend, but for the past few weeks there were hundreds of black bellied whistling ducks in one section. I haven’t made it west as of now, but have been hearing mixed reviews for Circle B too. I will be going to Big Cypress and Everglades in February. Hopefully will have good luck.
 
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Steve said:
Yes. However, I gave up on shutter release AF at the moment - I'm finding it's too difficult with gloves. So, I'm shooting BBAF with 3D on the back button and Wide (L) on fn1. (3D isn't programmed to the back button though, just selected as my current AF area). Fn2 has single point. It's not as elegant as my Sony setup, but it's about as good as it gets I think.

Also, I think there are a lot of people that seem to think you MUST have all the AF areas you want to use programmed to your various buttons and never vary from that. I have my AF-On button set for just focus, no areas. This allows me to use any of the AF areas I like and match them to a given scene. A quick way to do it is to program AF area section to your movie record button. It's right by the shutter and when you press and spin you can rapidly go though all the areas.
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I'm having trouble understanding the following relevant to Auto Persistence:

The manual (Z9RG_02, p605) states "...This only applies if you change AF-area modes while focusing with the shutter-release button pushed halfway..."

To me, this says that persistence only works when starting out with the Shutter-release button and then transitioning to a different AF-mode. Is that correct?

Then it says "...Focus-point persistence applies if while the control is pressed, you switch from an AF-area mode such as [Auto-area AF] in which the focus point is chosen automatically to a mode in which the focus point is selected manually..."

This means to me that static (set AF-point) modes like Group-dynamic will move their central focus point to that found by subject detection (and then remain static). Is that correct?
 
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Steve said:
I'm not a sports shooter, so there could be a value in Dynamic I'm not seeing. The idea with Dynamic is that if the primary AF area loses the target, the other AF points in the field will take over - to me, this is really similar to what 3D does, only 3D can go all over. However, Dynamic may use a different set of criteria for tracking.
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Yah, it's really a struggle understanding the differences. I can only imagine the differences are in how they are implemented which may provide different functional characteristics.

But man, it would be a lot easier if the manufactures disclosed more information about the theory of operation about their different modes. I suspect they often consider it "special sauce" tho.
 
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John Woodworth said:
I'm having trouble understanding the following relevant to Auto Persistence:

The manual (Z9RG_02, p605) states "...This only applies if you change AF-area modes while focusing with the shutter-release button pushed halfway..."

To me, this says that persistence only works when starting out with the Shutter-release button and then transitioning to a different AF-mode. Is that correct?
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It doesn't seem shutter release depends - it seems to work fine with AF-On too.

Then it says "...Focus-point persistence applies if while the control is pressed, you switch from an AF-area mode such as [Auto-area AF] in which the focus point is chosen automatically to a mode in which the focus point is selected manually..."

This means to me that static (set AF-point) modes like Group-dynamic will move their central focus point to that found by subject detection (and then remain static). Is that correct?
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More or less. Let's say your using 3D AF and the AF point is off to the left side. If you have Single Point AF on another button, when you press that button with AF engaged and 3D working, it'll stop using 3D, switch to single point, and put it in the last place 3D was.

What I can't decide yet is if the wide AF areas are also supported like 3D and Auto are. I'm getting mixed results. Part of the issue is that 3D doesn't seem to limit what it'll focus on to just the inside it's little box, especially with subject detection on. With it turned off, it seems to not be supported and the 3D AF box shows up in the middle no matter what. Still, I think it's handy for latching onto subjects and getting things close - but I may change my mind about that after using it. I'm almost thinking that if focus is close and you get the 3D box anywhere near the subject it'll probably catch on. Again, I hate to put stuff like this out there because I'm not really testing the camera at the moment, just tinkering a little. Too busy with the a1 setup guide and YT videos. Once the a1 guide is done, the Z9 will have my full attention and I'll get it all sorted out :)
 
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Thank yo
Steve said:
It doesn't seem shutter release depends - it seems to work fine with AF-On too.



More or less. Let's say your using 3D AF and the AF point is off to the left side. If you have Single Point AF on another button, when you press that button with AF engaged and 3D working, it'll stop using 3D, switch to single point, and put it in the last place 3D was.

What I can't decide yet is if the wide AF areas are also supported like 3D and Auto are. I'm getting mixed results. Part of the issue is that 3D doesn't seem to limit what it'll focus on to just the inside it's little box, especially with subject detection on. With it turned off, it seems to not be supported and the 3D AF box shows up in the middle no matter what. Still, I think it's handy for latching onto subjects and getting things close - but I may change my mind about that after using it. I'm almost thinking that if focus is close and you get the 3D box anywhere near the subject it'll probably catch on. Again, I hate to put stuff like this out there because I'm not really testing the camera at the moment, just tinkering a little. Too busy with the a1 setup guide and YT videos. Once the a1 guide is done, the Z9 will have my full attention and I'll get it all sorted out :)
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Thank you, Steve. I didn't mean to pick on just you.

Does anyone else have insights on how the persistence modes work and why the Sports Guide relies so much on Dynamic AF?
 
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John Navitsky said:
Yah, it's really a struggle understanding the differences. I can only imagine the differences are in how they are implemented which may provide different functional characteristics.

But man, it would be a lot easier if the manufactures disclosed more information about the theory of operation about their different modes. I suspect they often consider it "special sauce" tho.
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This is so true...We are shooting blind in many cases.
 
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John Woodworth said:
why the Sports Guide relies so much on Dynamic AF?
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I had a thought on that (I don't usually think about sports photography too much LOL).

One thing I can think of is that I've noticed 3D likes to jump between subjects a bit. I had a few swans sitting together, locked onto one's face, and 3D bounced between all three faces. I wonder if 3D is prone to jumping from player to player (since they all wear the same uniforms) and that's why they recommend Dynamic - to avoid having the camera jump to the wrong subject. This would be especially problematic at longer distances, which supports their mention of using it first and then going to 3D.
 
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Steve said:
Yes. However, I gave up on shutter release AF at the moment - I'm finding it's too difficult with gloves. So, I'm shooting BBAF with 3D on the back button and Wide (L) on fn1. (3D isn't programmed to the back button though, just selected as my current AF area). Fn2 has single point. It's not as elegant as my Sony setup, but it's about as good as it gets I think.

Also, I think there are a lot of people that seem to think you MUST have all the AF areas you want to use programmed to your various buttons and never vary from that. I have my AF-On button set for just focus, no areas. This allows me to use any of the AF areas I like and match them to a given scene. A quick way to do it is to program AF area section to your movie record button. It's right by the shutter and when you press and spin you can rapidly go though all the areas.
Click to expand...

I had the opposite problem with gloves while using the back button. I constantly moved the sub-controller/joystick. I'm still searching for a better
way.
 
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I've always used the single point with nine assist points on my D4s and I was hoping the Dynamic AF-S was similar. I could see the subject detect modes being a problem for soccer by jumping from player to player and likely why Nikon recommends the Dynamic AF-S or M settings for that sport.
 
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MikeS said:
I had the opposite problem with gloves while using the back button. I constantly moved the sub-controller/joystick. I'm still searching for a better
way.
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LOL, I think the bottom line is that shooting with gloves kinda sucks! Makes it tough on a new camera with a little different layout, that's for sure.
 
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Steve said:
I had a thought on that (I don't usually think about sports photography too much LOL).

One thing I can think of is that I've noticed 3D likes to jump between subjects a bit. I had a few swans sitting together, locked onto one's face, and 3D bounced between all three faces. I wonder if 3D is prone to jumping from player to player (since they all wear the same uniforms) and that's why they recommend Dynamic - to avoid having the camera jump to the wrong subject. This would be especially problematic at longer distances, which supports their mention of using it first and then going to 3D.
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Not trying to stir the pot but what is the point of 3D if it won't stay on a subject? Even in sports you want to follow the ball. Having a focus mode that won't stay on a subject doesn't make much sense to me. I don't use the function on Sony but I think I have seen settings that allow you to set say a specific persons face such as a bride and it will jump to that focus each time it sees that assigned subject. I think that is how it works which I suppose would be handy possibly even in wildlife but again not something I have ever messed with. So what is the point of having the ability to 3D track and look all over the EVF but not stay with a subject?
 
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dtibbals said:
Not trying to stir the pot but what is the point of 3D if it won't stay on a subject? Even in sports you want to follow the ball. Having a focus mode that won't stay on a subject doesn't make much sense to me. I don't use the function on Sony but I think I have seen settings that allow you to set say a specific persons face such as a bride and it will jump to that focus each time it sees that assigned subject. I think that is how it works which I suppose would be handy possibly even in wildlife but again not something I have ever messed with. So what is the point of having the ability to 3D track and look all over the EVF but not stay with a subject?
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That's not stirring, i pretty much agree with this. like other this more if it detects another potential subject is should simply give you the arrow to give you the ability to change if you want as opposed to if it wants... otherwise just use auto and pray!
 
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dtibbals said:
Not trying to stir the pot but what is the point of 3D if it won't stay on a subject? Even in sports you want to follow the ball. Having a focus mode that won't stay on a subject doesn't make much sense to me. I don't use the function on Sony but I think I have seen settings that allow you to set say a specific persons face such as a bride and it will jump to that focus each time it sees that assigned subject. I think that is how it works which I suppose would be handy possibly even in wildlife but again not something I have ever messed with. So what is the point of having the ability to 3D track and look all over the EVF but not stay with a subject?
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I'm not 100% sure it's a huge problem all the time - I think it's more for those times when there are multiple similar subjects, especially if they are at a bit of a distance. I've seen it jump from swan to swan, and it does the same thing sometimes during flight shots. It's not as dedicated to the subject as the a1, but I don't know yet how far off it is- and it might take take a little playing and experimenting to really dial it in. It also may be that I had a rare experience- or it may be common. I'll be shooting it soon enough and I'll have some better answers - all my stuff is incredibly preliminary now (so much so I really shouldn't be sharing it - it'll bite me in the a** for sure). Right now, I'm way more concerned about the a1 guide :)
 
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I found 3D to want to jump around way too much. I would prefer the system to continue to track what it started on until I let off the AF button or I tell it to switch subjects with the little arrows it sometimes brings up. I understand that there will be more complex situations where any tracking system will get confused and jump to other things but Nikon's 3D is jumping way too often and in situations where it really isn't confusing at all. I had 3D on a kingfisher that was perched out on the very end of a long branch. So nothing else around it. Background was at least 1000 feet away and grossly OOF...the 3D thing would all of a sudden jump down the perch which looked nothing like the kingfisher and it would also all of a sudden drive focus all the way to that distant background. This was with a Lock on of 5. Even in other modes like Wide-Area I would aim it at the duck I wanted, it would see the eye, start tracking the eye no problem. Then for no reason jump the eye to another duck nearby. This was one of my big AF complaints when using the Z9, lack of persistence. Aim the A1 at your subject and the thing will ignore everything else no matter what is going on. I had both cameras out going back and forth between them during my testing and it was quite striking the difference in behavior.
 
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arbitrage said:
I found 3D to want to jump around way too much. I would prefer the system to continue to track what it started on until I let off the AF button or I tell it to switch subjects with the little arrows it sometimes brings up. I understand that there will be more complex situations where any tracking system will get confused and jump to other things but Nikon's 3D is jumping way too often and in situations where it really isn't confusing at all. I had 3D on a kingfisher that was perched out on the very end of a long branch. So nothing else around it. Background was at least 1000 feet away and grossly OOF...the 3D thing would all of a sudden jump down the perch which looked nothing like the kingfisher and it would also all of a sudden drive focus all the way to that distant background. This was with a Lock on of 5. Even in other modes like Wide-Area I would aim it at the duck I wanted, it would see the eye, start tracking the eye no problem. Then for no reason jump the eye to another duck nearby. This was one of my big AF complaints when using the Z9, lack of persistence. Aim the A1 at your subject and the thing will ignore everything else no matter what is going on. I had both cameras out going back and forth between them during my testing and it was quite striking the difference in behavior.
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Good info - thanks!!! I think that's what's messing me up when I'm thinking about how I'm going to use the Z9 in the real world - I've been assuming that 3D is going to act like Sony - and stick to my target. In my VERY limited testing, that's not the case and I can see from your experience, my experience wasn't an outlier.
 
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