Nikon, better subject detection, please!

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Like you, I spend a reasonable amount of time (in season) at both Conowingo and Bombay Hook and am surprised we never met. Perhaps, we'll be fortunate to connect up this fall? So, what I am particularly frustrated with is what I think you describe as "AF drift". Initial capture is achieved and then when the eagle strikes, the AF seems to drift off target for a few frames, only to reacquire again after the strike. These are head scratching sequences where one is panning a strike usually less than 50 yards away and the target is large in the frame (nearly occupying 80+% of the vertical field. How or why this occurs with my Z8 is simply perplexing as again, I've not experienced this with Sony/Canon. If they acquire AF, they don't seem to lose in through the strike. With respect to the reflection "latching", I've encountered this on rare occasion with the Z8 though if one "pumps" the AF, i.e. releases and reacquires, this usually resolves.

The thought of shooting a flat picture control is intriguing though it is difficult to see why that would affect AF? Conceivably, I could see how using the custom picture control which produces blinkies could tax the EXPEED 7 chip, though why would NL (what I use) rather than "flat" lead to drift?
Also keep in mind a couple of other settings that can make a huge difference. Number one with bird subject detection the auto area AF mode is significantly better than 3D or any of the wide AF modes. In the menu item A3 which is going to be where the block shot setting is at make sure you set that to five. 3D can only use level 3 so it will always default to three no matter what but when you use Auto area AF mode it will use level five which is its most sticky. Since bird subject detection I rarely even have the AF jump to the reflected eye rather than the actual eye of the duck so to speak. I also don't shoot in or towards the Sun especially around water since I use a PF lens. As the weakness of the PF element our spectral highlights with backlit scenes on water so not shooting in those situations doesn't cause any confusion with the AF system
 
I do not shoot Canon so I do not have first hand experience. Talking to Canon shooters I work alongside they say they would not expect current Canon eye AF to work reliably with an eye that occupies well below one percent of the picture area.
There seems to me no doubt that Storks and Herons are an unusual shape for birds – and Steve has commented on the challenges getting Nikon early versions of bird AF to work with long neck birds.
It is well known that generally ML AF when it cannot detect a subject requires detail parallel to the short dimension of the frame.
With this type of bird I resolve the tiny in the frame eye problem by aiming auto focus at the neck – and get a get results :)
Nikon has suggested the Z6 III can detect smaller subjects than earlier Nikon cameras.
Perhaps someone with both a Z 6 III and perhaps a Z8 can do comparisons - and if there is a clear Z6 III improvement hopefully it will filter down to other bodies via firmware updates.
In the background a subject detection AF system needs information from several separate points on the sensor to enable AF to identify with reasonable accuracy a person, a face, an eye, a bird et cetera.
Canon currently claim to be working on "next generation" subject detection - I expect Nikon are also doing this.
In the meantime I do not worry too much about the perhaps 2-3 % of subjects that confuse subject detection AF - having easily learned when to switch AF methods.
I live in "sheep" country. Sheep have a very low contrast dark eye - and a bright yellow high contrast identification ear tag close by.
Local Canon, Sony and Nikon photographers seem not to loose much sleep because eye AF with any of the 3 systems usually chooses the "easier for AF" sheep ear tag rather than the eye.
We recognise any form of autos focus or metering does not get everything 100% right all the time - and quickly adapt to when some input from the photographer can help get a better result.
 
Also keep in mind a couple of other settings that can make a huge difference. Number one with bird subject detection the auto area AF mode is significantly better than 3D or any of the wide AF modes. In the menu item A3 which is going to be where the block shot setting is at make sure you set that to five. 3D can only use level 3 so it will always default to three no matter what but when you use Auto area AF mode it will use level five which is its most sticky. Since bird subject detection I rarely even have the AF jump to the reflected eye rather than the actual eye of the duck so to speak. I also don't shoot in or towards the Sun especially around water since I use a PF lens. As the weakness of the PF element our spectral highlights with backlit scenes on water so not shooting in those situations doesn't cause any confusion with the AF system
I've looked for evidence regarding AF accuracy and picture controls and am unable to find any conclusive information supporting or refuting the approach. It may be important in low light, though proper exposure may be more important. If you have links supporting altering the picture controls, I would appreciate the references.
 
A question, and I honestly don't want this comment to be taken in a negative way and I certainly don't want it to start a brand war. Moderators please take note and delete this post if it causes controversy.

You original post states that you moved to Nikon from Canon over a year ago and the focusing issues you see with the Z8 were not an issue with the R5. So, what is it about the Canon or Nikon system that caused you to make the switch. I have been shooting Nikon since 1975 so I don't have experience with anything else to compare it to. I would guess switching brands would be costly, so what was missing on the Canon side or what attracted you to Nikon.
 
I've looked for evidence regarding AF accuracy and picture controls and am unable to find any conclusive information supporting or refuting the approach. It may be important in low light, though proper exposure may be more important. If you have links supporting altering the picture controls, I would appreciate the references.
Then don't believe me and ignore what i said. Matters not to me. The flat pc and other things are things that I've done and see results from and people I know see results from as well. Getting 90-95% hit rate for in focus shots when many others don't means somethings are different.

I generally don't shoot in low light, so that's not it either.

I don't remember where I got the idea from, it was over 2 years ago and it could have been anywhere at this point. I'm not even sure if it was something that was said directly not sometime that have me the idea, but the people I've had to this South other things had improved their in focus hit rate improve almost immediately. But you can try it or not.
 
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I've looked for evidence regarding AF accuracy and picture controls and am unable to find any conclusive information supporting or refuting the approach. It may be important in low light, though proper exposure may be more important. If you have links supporting altering the picture controls, I would appreciate the references.
yah, solid evidence on these things is super hard. i’m going to try switching to flat and removing the notification indicators, the histogram and leveling lines from my evf and trying it out, but it would be nice if we could figure out tests to show evidence for or against setting change impacts it would be great

anyone please note testing ideas
 
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yah, solid evidence on these things is super hard. i’m going to try switching to flat and removing the notification indicators, the histogram and leveling lines from my evf and trying it out, but it would be nice if we could figure out tests to show evidence for or against setting change impacts it would be great

anyone please not and testing ideas
Let me know how it works for you
 
A question, and I honestly don't want this comment to be taken in a negative way and I certainly don't want it to start a brand war. Moderators please take note and delete this post if it causes controversy.

You original post states that you moved to Nikon from Canon over a year ago and the focusing issues you see with the Z8 were not an issue with the R5. So, what is it about the Canon or Nikon system that caused you to make the switch. I have been shooting Nikon since 1975 so I don't have experience with anything else to compare it to. I would guess switching brands would be costly, so what was missing on the Canon side or what attracted you to Nikon.
Not at all and it’s a fair question. My thread was not intended to be inflammatory rather to spur discussion and useful conversation. I know that I’ve mentioned this elsewhere though I shot Nikon film cameras in the the 1970’s-80’s and switched to canon with the advent of the USM AF lens in the late 1980’s. Stayed with them as they moved into DSLR’s and eventually MILC’s. Given that I was no longer making significant income from photography, am older, and my extensive collection of lenses were aging, I was enamored with the Nikon mid range, compact, medium priced lenses. After a brief year long foray into Sony, I sold most everything and bought into Nikon.
 
Then don't believe me and ignore what i said. Matters not to me. The flat pc and other things are things that I've done and see results from and people I know see results from as well. Getting 90-95% hit rate for in focus shots when many others don't means somethings are different.

I generally don't shoot in low light, so that's not it either.

I don't remember where I got the idea from, it was over 2 years ago and it could have been anywhere at this point. I'm not even sure if it was something that was said directly not sometime that have me the idea, but the people I've had to this South other things had improved their in focus hit rate improve almost immediately. But you can try it or not.
It’s not a question of belief, rather I am trying to understand why that would work. My understanding is that Thom H suggested that picture controls might affect af though I am unable to find any source articles. If edge detection and contrast are important then one would think that increasing sharpness or using something like vivid would be preferable.
 
It’s not a question of belief, rather I am trying to understand why that would work. My understanding is that Thom H suggested that picture controls might affect af though I am unable to find any source articles. If edge detection and contrast are important then one would think that increasing sharpness or using something like vivid would be preferable.
oh I hear you. I meant it as i didn't think there is anything specific out there on this. I just meant you'll need to try or not. I didn't think there is another that says X on this.

Most of the things I'm not sure have a specific reason why, just educated guesses. For me it seems plausible that flat pc, and turning off indicators could just be reducing the load on the EXPEED 7 processor, even minimally could be just enough to help a bit.

Conversely, I don't think using a PC like vivid is applied to the image is written to storage, not helping the contrast in the EVF not showing the processor down adding this adjustments. I'm not that smart to work out a definitive test. I get ideas, apply them, test them and decide if I'm seeing a tangible improvement. If I don't, I move on. If I do I pass it on
 
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It’s not a question of belief, rather I am trying to understand why that would work. My understanding is that Thom H suggested that picture controls might affect af though I am unable to find any source articles. If edge detection and contrast are important then one would think that increasing sharpness or using something like vivid would be preferable.
if it is true, i can think of two possible lines of thought:

1) anything that alters the nature of the image (color shifts, contrast changes, whatever) from how the detection was trained will potentially impact accuracy

2) increasing contrast may darken shadows. we've already suspected that exposure has an effect, or how i say it "if you can't see the details, either can the camera" (which, probably isn't really true, but it may convey the gist of it).

using a flat (or possibly neutral) profile _may_ have an impact on one or both of these things
 
One simple test would be to walk away from a human subject until the af can no longer confirm the eye lock, and repeat this several times with different picture control settings. If a flat profile helped makes a difference it should show up with more distance before losing the lock.
 
One simple test would be to walk away from a human subject until the af can no longer confirm the eye lock, and repeat this several times with different picture control settings. If a flat profile helped makes a difference it should show up with more distance before losing the lock.
Distance is not the determining factor here and would not be a test for this. That test would show how in FX and SD starting to fail and switching to DX helps the SD recognize and lock up the head or eye when in FX mode it doesn't

I am talking about reducing the frequency of AF Drift during burst shooting and more consistently recognize your subject with more distractions in the frame like trees or something like an Eagle at the point of picking up a fish on the water.
 
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memory refresh, "Between the image sensor and the EXPEED7 chip are two data pipelines running at 120Hz (which is what generates the 120 fps maximum frame rate and the 120 fps focus data stream). The first pipeline goes to the usual image processing chain. The second goes to a new viewfinder and focus processing chain....."

Nikon designed the Z9 AF engine to use relevant patterns in the jpg image feed in the EVF graphics chain - refreshing at 120 fps. This explains how the Deep-Learning Subject Detection is intrinsic to its AF system.

We see evidence for this dependency in how exposure settings and also apparently different Picture Controls files impact AF performance. Here the improved contrast definition, better colour too, helps the camera to focus. One example is Eyes in shadow (even though matrix metering exposes the face/head correctly), which can cause the realtime AF to struggle with reduced contrast.

And we further know the AF data is analyzed by EXPEED7 (not in the Z9, Z8 stacked sensor), because Nikon can use the EXPEED7 chip alone to leverage the primary Z9 AF engine into the Zf and Z6 III.

Furthermore, this thread in May 2022, responding to more feedback from Thom Hogan about Z9 AF - Exposure coupling

 
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Another thread
Just read through that thread and the inference is that PC's make no difference in AF ability. Steve's comments were revealing.
 
I tend to agree with the OP, and I'd like to offer my support in pointing out that it's not an uncommon complaint - you just don't see it as often as you used to because people who bring it up tend to get shouted down (not really here, where the user base is probably the best I've seen on the internet, but certainly on other forums).

I still find it works well much of the time, but there are definitely problem areas and times it just seems ro have real trouble, even with people when the light gets into "use a speedlight" territory. For instance, I don't think in 3 years I can remember any Z camera I've used - even the Z8 with the new firmwares - trying to focus on the eye or head of a flying bird. It sticks to the body pretty well, but then it's almost like the group AF from DSLR days. The value of the subject recognition for stuff like BiF is supposed to be in large part that you can focus on the eye rather than having most of the shots focus on the wing and so the head is a bit soft. I haven't had it really do this for me.
That is exactly my experience and a very good point. BIF at sensible (not the unachievable "fill the frame") distances even with a 600mm TC Z finds the body, not the eye--ever.
 
Just read through that thread and the inference is that PC's make no difference in AF ability. Steve's comments were revealing.
And there is no mention in the current edition of Thom Hogan's ebook about any relationship with PC files and AF. What he states is as follows - to quote: "....I believe that the Z9’s focus system information is coming from the viewfinder stream. Post the exposure processing.....Your subject should be at “proper” exposure levels for the autofocus system to work best. Underexposure, in particular, tends to present problems for the focus system as noise starts to to intrude in its data stream looking at the subject..."

Pertinently, to summarize what TH argues [pg 696] that if subject detection is active, 3D-Tracking sees and uses the data trio of Colour, Pattern {=Contrast) with Subject Recognition (SR) BUT it seems that Nikon hasn’t 100% decided what of these three detections gets priority. This is probably why we can see the point of focus switching position [ "...when subject detection is enabled with 3Dtracking..."]

Although apparently Auto AF [Groups Area modes also?] does not use Colour data, it could still struggle with conflicting signals in Contrast versus SR data signals, which could through out eye-recognition of a moving subjects in particular.
 
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Putting on my engineering hat and speculating (because on some teams at Nikon know the truth, and they aren't telling, neither is Canon nor Sony):

If the AF system is using the EVF feed, and is taking the results as shown in the EVF and not before ans EVF related adjustments are made, reducing PC to flat and / or turning of WYSIWYG for the EVF could (!) have a latency impact on AF in general and not just SR. Whatever changes are applied to the file, need to be calculated for EVF before the AF can kick in. That delay can pose problems for both, SR and AF.

Again, no way to be sure, as the Nikon (or Sony or Canon) people who know won't tell.
 
That is exactly my experience and a very good point. BIF at sensible (not the unachievable "fill the frame") distances even with a 600mm TC Z finds the body, not the eye--ever.

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This is one of the images I shot with a Z6III and a 28-400 lens during a recent vacation. As can be seen, AF grabbed the eye (Wide-L, animal, standard picture control). Out of this particular burst of 20 or so only two were locked on the eye, but I was on a boat and keeping the gull in the frame was a challenge, even using VR. It isn't my experience that Nikon AF never finds the eye of a bird in flight at sensible distances. I'd love the hit rate to be higher, but it isn't zero either.

I'll add that, in my experience, for long necked birds in flight, getting AF to grab the eye is much more difficult, but again, not zero. I'm certain Nikon's engineers are working on improvements.
 
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Returned to the goldfinches this afternoon who were feasting on some pine nuts. While the AF would, on occasion get confused by the cones, in general it performed better than on the echinacea. I was treated by this breeding male who was feeding a juvenile (too many images to post). I was at near MFD and SD was working perfectly.

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@ajrmd here are a few images of Bald Eagles at the point of picking up fish in 3 different locations and much different environments/backgrounds. This is very typical results for me. These were shot with a mix of my Z800mm and my old 500PF adapted

Bald Eagle 2-19-23 1.jpg
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Bald Eagle 12-2-22 12.jpg
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Bald Eagle 5-9-23 5ee.jpg
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Bald Eagle 4-12-23 31.jpg
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Bald Eagle 4-12-23 2dd.jpg
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Bald Eagle 3-21-23 6a.jpg
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Bald Eagle 3-21-23 1c.jpg
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That is exactly my experience and a very good point. BIF at sensible (not the unachievable "fill the frame") distances even with a 600mm TC Z finds the body, not the eye--ever.
I honestly don’t know whether the camera is tracking the eye or the body when I’m shooting BiF, but I don’t notice a problem keeping the eye sharp. On DSLRs, I never liked groups for precisely the reason you and scoombs state—it would grab the wing rather than the eye. I preferred dynamic 21 or 9 point. In fact, I don’t think I took my D850 off of dynamic for 3-4 years.
 
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