Optical viewfinder vs Electronic viewfinder experiences

[EricBowles]

I was in my local camera shop today and on a whim took a look at all the rentals (not just the Z9, like before): R3, Z9, A1.

The Z9’s finder was again initially flickery, then the flickers went away after a bit of viewing. Image is grainy compared to the two others. R3’s finder was ok, but the body was sublime. I thought the A1’s finder was very nice, best of the bunch, and the thing is tiny. I could see how the lack of weight would really help hand-holding BIF.

Very sorry to hear about your eye issues. Good luck with treatment and recovery.

The EVFs of mirrorless cameras have a lot of technical decisions and settings at work. I can't speak to the specifics of you r comparison, but did want to share some facts.

The Z9 is a real time readout from the sensor that refreshes up to 120 times per second. The image is full size all the time - no reduced resolution or skipping frames. You can choose whether you want a view of the image to be created (within limits) or to view the scene without applying settings and it looks like an optical viewfinder. In low light, these factors mean your EVF can be grainy because it's using the equivalent of a very high ISO view to give you a real time image refresh., but you can turn that off if you want.

Other cameras have taken different approaches. Rather than a real time fast refresh, they decrease image resolution and skip frames. With downsizing and less data throughput to the EVF, you get a cleaner view that is acceptable, but you get less detail and less real time response. There are situations where you won't see the difference, but also situations where you will see a difference if you know what to look for.

The Z9 body is designed to be a flagship style. The larger battery and body designed as a heat sink are important features for high frame rate and 8k video on a sustained basis. The upcoming smaller version of the Z9 is expected to incorporate much of that technology, but will very likely have a reduced frame rate and 8k video limitations because of the smaller battery and more limited heat sink. That's the nature of the differences between a flagship body for professionals and a high capability body for professional use without those requirements.

 

[John Navitsky]

I'm wondering if the z9 flickery might have been the IBIS clicking in? easy test to switch the IBIS totally off if you find yourself in the camera store again.

good point

 

[John Navitsky]

i should mention on rare occasions i have seen the z9 evf pixelate for brief periods. but it’s not common

 

[Dave Wo]

Well said Steve. Took me a little while to get used to my Sony RX10 because of the viewfinder, but not a problem. I'm too used to my D810 and D500 I guess, but the Sony has it's place for sure in my bag. It's my quick grab for video and other situations where I don't want to carry extra gear with the Nikons.

 

[agrumpyoldsod]

Something was wrong if the z9 was flickery. For the higher end cameras an EVF looks pretty similar to looking through an optical viewfinder except usually it is simulating the exposure, though that can be switched off.
I think the evf is tenfold better than the ovf.

Me too and I am ancient, grew up on OVFs but simply will never go back to an OVF. Zooming into 100% and out again by pressing a button, focus peaking, in EVF histograms, Eye-tracking, Starlight view, etc..... and more were never available in an OVF.

 

[thelordofthelight]

I think the flickering happens when you turn on power saving in the EVF setting.

 

[agrumpyoldsod]

I think the flickering happens when you turn on power saving in the EVF setting.

Or there is a light source at 50-60hz in the view finder — you need to look at flicker reduction settings. An EVF is just another video camera

 

[thelordofthelight]

What I meant was the EVF behaviour you see just after you pick your camera after you turn it on..there is a flicker/ slow refresh that’s a bit distracting. I noticed this the first time I used the camera and then realised it was due to the EVF power saving setting set to on. OTOH flicker reduction setting controls the way the sensor handles the flickering from external light sources I think.

Or there is a light source at 50-60hz in the view finder — you need to look at flicker reduction settings. An EVF is just another video camera

 

[Ken Miracle]

The OP is taking about the internal feeling. I thing I have an easy solution, Shoot with both eyes open!
Any Apache helicopter pilots around?

I have always shot with both eyes open ... an old shotgunners habit. It makes target acquisition a whole lot easier.

 

[Ken Miracle]

I was in my local camera shop today and on a whim took a look at all the rentals (not just the Z9, like before): R3, Z9, A1.

The Z9’s finder was again initially flickery, then the flickers went away after a bit of viewing. Image is grainy compared to the two others. R3’s finder was ok, but the body was sublime. I thought the A1’s finder was very nice, best of the bunch, and the thing is tiny. I could see how the lack of weight would really help hand-holding BIF.

So I rented it plus a 200-600 (they don't rent the 600mm f4) and headed out to my local bird spot.

I am sure I didn’t even have it set up correctly, but I managed to turn on bird eye detect. And I got an ospery diving, snatching a perch, and then munching on it at the top of a dead tree. Wow! First time for that, for me. Been at this hobby for, like, four days. Images are a bit grainy and small as the action was a bit far away.


View attachment 59700View attachment 59701View attachment 59702

Pardon any crap technical issues as guess what? I do believe I’m having a retina detachment (and my OS can’t install any app that can open Sony raw files, so these were just edited jpgs).

Tonight I suddenly had a “shadow” appear in the bottom of my right eye’s vision. Surgeon wants me in the office tomorrow. So this might be the last you hear from me for a while!

I do note that, despite the excitement and satisfaction of getting some correctly focused action, afterwards I did feel like I almost wasn’t there, like I watched it on TV or something. Strange feeling.

I blame mirrorless for the eye problem.

A little gallows humor.

Not joking, however, about the detachment. Wish me luck!

Prayers for you and the docs.

 

[jeffnles1]

Tonight I suddenly had a “shadow” appear in the bottom of my right eye’s vision. Surgeon wants me in the office tomorrow. So this might be the last you hear from me for a while!

I do note that, despite the excitement and satisfaction of getting some correctly focused action, afterwards I did feel like I almost wasn’t there, like I watched it on TV or something. Strange feeling.

I blame mirrorless for the eye problem.

A little gallows humor.

Not joking, however, about the detachment. Wish me luck!

Hey,
All camera talk aside, prayers for good outcome from the doctor's visit.
Jeff

 

[carbon]

Thanks for all of the kind wishes!

I have a small detachment and two small tears. Now I’m all eye-lasered up and resting. Must maintain an upright head position, 10° inclined left, for 5 days straight, including sleeping! At least I can sit, thank Zeus! If my posts become increasing more unhinged, well, fair warning haha!

The head position is for the gas bubble the doc induced (with needles! just local anesthetic!) to press against the upper left bit of detached retina. The laser spot-welding they did takes 10 days to “take” and the gas bubble helps the process. If this doesn’t work they do a full-on surgery.

They’re gonna laser the left eye too before any problems start. They said once one eye goes, the other tends to follow. No gas bubble needed in the left, however, unless there’s a detachment.

ANYWAY, I’m trying to distract myself and I’m surprised I can type ok with one eye.

Now, back on topic. Set aside the end result of your photography. I know that’s hard for some folks. I don’t think there’s much argument that mirrorless really improves the keeper rate of BIF.

If you must, you can post more about Z9 fixes or how you love the results of mirrorless above all else, but really why I started this thread was to provoke an internal monologue within yourselves, within this little community. A monologue that you might share with others on what the finder-type transition provoked within.

What I’m feeling with regards to mirrorless has to do with the convergence between still photography and video “taping”. My experience with video is while I’m doing it, I never quite feel in-the-moment, you know? And with the Sony, I felt that a little. Not a lot, but a little. Lots of blinking green boxes, man. More distracting than the red boxes of DSLRs.

Scads upon scads of in-focus keepers. Snap-management, help! Computer choking…

And yes, I know it’s probably just a mindset, but I’m sharing, ok?

Not trying to have a debate on which is “best”, be it OVF/EVF, as there is no correct answer. Sharing and caring, man, sharing and caring. Debate-free zone, at least from me. Ok if you feel good, ok if you feel bad. Share you you feel, don’t try to convince anyone about anything. People learn from other’s experiences shared around the campfire.

Call it…Cameraholics Anonymous. “Hi, my name is Carbon and I am satisfied with OVFs. But I’ve been looking covetously at those sexy little EVFs. But they make me feel a little empty. Scared of end-result addiction!”

- one-eyed carbon
(hopefully at least temporarily)

 

[Ken Miracle]

Great to hear so far so good. I did a couple of architectural shoots in the last few days of the outside of our church ... not something I do often and I could see missing the DSLR "experience" if I did that often ... that static object without feathers is always a bit jarring for me.

Also had to photograph people for this directory project another rare thing for me. Now the EVF experience was back and better ... spoiled with being able to see what tones were doing as I managed for mixed skin tone families and one instance with white hair like mine needing to be "monitored" (pun intended in my EVF.

 

[jeffnles1]

Hey Carbon - good news that the surgery seems to be successful. Prayers for continued healing and you quickly return to the field with camera in hand.

 

[carbon]

You can only see EXIF info for this image if you are logged in.

Right after getting home today. Surgery was at about 10am? Ice pack on head. Splitting migraine-like feeling. Yuk. Regular noises sound like amps turned to 11. Roll the shades down, damnit!

You can only see EXIF info for this image if you are logged in.

Hours later at 4pm: eye patch is approved to come off. Sorta gross. I can see Jupiter-sized gas bubbles in bottom of right eye’s vision (typical). Still dilated.

To reiterate what others have said, if you have the faintest whiff of something amiss, call a retina specialist or go into the ER. A new floater, sharply defined? Call. A vague feeling of not seeing below you quite well? Call. Etc.

My dad didn’t call, didn’t rush, and paid a horrible price. I have had my doc on speed-dial since my cataract surgeries in Jan.

Carry on.

 

[Ken Miracle]

View attachment 59745
Right after getting home today. Surgery was at about 10am? Ice pack on head. Splitting migraine-like feeling. Yuk. Regular noises sound like amps turned to 11. Roll the shades down, damnit!




View attachment 59746
Hours later at 4pm: eye patch is approved to come off. Sorta gross. I can see Jupiter-sized gas bubbles in bottom of right eye’s vision (typical). Still dilated.

To reiterate what others have said, if you have the faintest whiff of something amiss, call a retina specialist or go into the ER. A new floater, sharply defined? Call. A vague feeling of not seeing below you quite well? Call. Etc.

My dad didn’t call, didn’t rush, and paid a horrible price. I have had my doc on speed-dial since my cataract surgeries in Jan.

Carry on.

My wife went to the eye doc for a regular check up one day and before they dilated the tech called the surgeon in and said look at this. She had Narrow Angle Glaucoma at critical levels in one eye. So no dilation and she was told not to go to sleep and a few hours later for the first eye and the other one that was not as far along a few days later.

 

[Cameranut]

Wishing you the best - take it easy and hang in there. I didn't have the bubble to deal with, but my detachment was clear in with the macula detached due to a few hour delay, but finally seeing well from that eye also now. My surgeon does not put the gas bubbles in - my daughter just had a detachment fixed and she had the bubble to put up with. Different docs.
Good luck.

 

[IainD]

I have no trouble with the evf on my Z9. I put it to my eye the first time and was immediately happy. The abi to see the histogram and the effect of settings is hard to beat. I am still happy with my D5, D850 and D500 viewfinders, but the evf is good.

 

[O]

Hi everyone, first post here. I got into photography with a FM2, and then an 8008s. Went Canon in the mid-90s because of AF and sort of dropped out of photography in the mid-2000’s (never went digital).

So I’m back in the hobby and got myself a D6 and a 1Dx III, apparently right as DSLRs are going obsolete. Great timing!

Looking at doing some BIF photography. Anyway…enough about me.

I am wondering how people transitioned from OVF to EVF. Before I bought a DSLR I briefly checked out either a Sony A1 or one step down at Best Buy (of all places) and it was ok. Best EVF that I had seen, but I hadn’t seen many, and I didn’t really like it. This was about a year ago.

Fast forward to last week and I had a chance to peer through a Z9. Yeesh! All flickery. No idea about the Canon R3. But it doesn’t matter the brand, you’re still looking at a tiny TV monitor.

I get the advantages of an EVF with looking at exposure right through the viewfinder, no blackout, higher fps, silent, etc. etc but man, I stare at a computer screen all day long.

Looking at real life through an OVF just gets the hair standing up on the back of my neck and puts me in the moment.

And my Leica M10-P places me even closer into whatever “scene” I’m in. Rangefinder manual focusing is the bomb.

I don’t plan on ever making a dime at this and the actual images are sorta secondary to me being in some sort of zen trance lol. I also occasionally shoot at night (not birds, obv) and don’t know if EVFs mess one’s adaptive night vision up.

In short, EVFs make me feel like I’m using a camcorder and making a crappy (but funny) home movie with my high-school buddies. Not like I ever did that

To be clear, I’m not asking about the results (photos) or how you feel about them. And of course I want sharp pics. But I’m not sure at what cost to the overall experience?

I’m asking about how the OVF/EVF adds to/subtracts from the experience while you actually take the shot (and very soon after).

How have you (or haven’t you) made the OVF/EVF transition?

P.S. Heck, I could ask this same sort of question about AF vs MF. Manual focusing an old Nikkor during a football game is a sublime experience when you do it right.

I am a DSLR fan and OVF lover D6 D850, but hands down my Z9 EVF is indisputable the most valuable tool to date,

i can see DOF instantly as i change F stops, i can see the change in exposure instantly i adjust something.

The quality of the image in the EVF is superb, bright clear, totally perfect to do the job.

As a tool, purpose, functionality 100% EVF in my Z9 over any OVF.

Only an opinion

 

[bleirer]

I am a DSLR fan and OVF lover D6 D850, but hands down my Z9 EVF is indisputable the most valuable tool to date,

i can see DOF instantly as i change F stops, i can see the change in exposure instantly i adjust something.

The quality of the image in the EVF is superb, bright clear, totally perfect to do the job.

As a tool, purpose, functionality 100% EVF in my Z9 over any OVF.

Only an opinion

So the Z9 shows you depth of field full time? Can this be set on or off in the menu? On my R5 you have to push a dof preview button, there is no option for full time dof preview. I don't know that I would want it full time, as I'd rather have the more narrow wide open dof for manual focusing.

 

[ARClark]

View attachment 59745
Right after getting home today. Surgery was at about 10am? Ice pack on head. Splitting migraine-like feeling. Yuk. Regular noises sound like amps turned to 11. Roll the shades down, damnit!




View attachment 59746
Hours later at 4pm: eye patch is approved to come off. Sorta gross. I can see Jupiter-sized gas bubbles in bottom of right eye’s vision (typical). Still dilated.

To reiterate what others have said, if you have the faintest whiff of something amiss, call a retina specialist or go into the ER. A new floater, sharply defined? Call. A vague feeling of not seeing below you quite well? Call. Etc.

My dad didn’t call, didn’t rush, and paid a horrible price. I have had my doc on speed-dial since my cataract surgeries in Jan.

Carry on.

Good advice and best of luck in your recovery. I’ve had several occasions on which I’ve gotten a bright zig zaggy pattern slowly form on the edge and move across my eye. Went to eye doctor right away the first time thinking it might be a detached retina, but found out it was an optic nerve migraine. No pain, and thankfully it only lasted a couple hours. But as you said, get any unusual eye problem checked right away.

Regarding OVF vs EVF, I’ve been shooting film/SLR and DLSR cameras with OVFs since the 1950s, but really took to the Z9 EVF. Admittedly, it was slightly jarring at first until I adjusted the brightness and color balance (added some warmth) and now it’s invisible. I now find the D850 viewfinder dim in less than ideal light, and miss seeing changes in exposure offered by the EVF. But it’s really down to individual taste.

 

[Ken Miracle]

So the Z9 shows you depth of field full time? Can this be set on or off in the menu? On my R5 you have to push a dof preview button, there is no option for full time dof preview. I don't know that I would want it full time, as I'd rather have the more narrow wide open dof for manual focusing.

Not all the time. @Steve covers it in his book The Ultimate Nikon Z9 Setup and Shooting Guide for Wildlife Photography and even more info in his Secrets o the Nikon Auto Focus System. It only does so up to f/5.6 unless you have a TC on or a lens that is a f/6.3 like the Z800pf and then you will see up to that aperture. Steve also discusses options of how to do depth of field previews for smaller apertures in both books.

 

[O]

Very sorry to hear about your eye issues. Good luck with treatment and recovery.

The EVFs of mirrorless cameras have a lot of technical decisions and settings at work. I can't speak to the specifics of you r comparison, but did want to share some facts.

The Z9 is a real time readout from the sensor that refreshes up to 120 times per second. The image is full size all the time - no reduced resolution or skipping frames. You can choose whether you want a view of the image to be created (within limits) or to view the scene without applying settings and it looks like an optical viewfinder. In low light, these factors mean your EVF can be grainy because it's using the equivalent of a very high ISO view to give you a real time image refresh., but you can turn that off if you want.

Other cameras have taken different approaches. Rather than a real time fast refresh, they decrease image resolution and skip frames. With downsizing and less data throughput to the EVF, you get a cleaner view that is acceptable, but you get less detail and less real time response. There are situations where you won't see the difference, but also situations where you will see a difference if you know what to look for.

The Z9 body is designed to be a flagship style. The larger battery and body designed as a heat sink are important features for high frame rate and 8k video on a sustained basis. The upcoming smaller version of the Z9 is expected to incorporate much of that technology, but will very likely have a reduced frame rate and 8k video limitations because of the smaller battery and more limited heat sink. That's the nature of the differences between a flagship body for professionals and a high capability body for professional use without those requirements.

Nice read, great information, Thank you ERIC, Steve's book's and the member's in this forum are just amazingly helpful.

I hope the drill down model Z8 will be at least 60 mp not 45mp and with 12 fps small compact and above all bug free LOL..........that will compliment the Z9.

As to the EVF on my Z9, i have no issues what so ever, i use Steve's settings of +1, i have never seen flickering to date.

The EVF is perfectly usable for me in every way imaginable, and yes the wider i shoot the more i see the DOF, i think this area may even advance in the Z9II hopefully along with more buttons on the top and upper back like the Sony A1.

I find i use the EV adjustment a lot in combination with what i see in teh EVF and it really balances or works well based on the end results, i hope they increase the EC + - range from 5 to maybe 8.

I can even use the EVF held 6, 18 to 24 inches away and pier through like a small back screen, the bright green focus square stands out, with the IBIS and P mode say with my MADLY good 50mm 1.8s i place the focus square on the subject and click, yes as long as your arms can reach even, why i do this, well if i don't want to light the place up with the back LCD screen it helps but above all its easy and i do it a lot. LOL, or if i want to capture a Bee in a flower i cant reach easily i can lower the camera closer to the subject, it works well.

The weight of the Z9 works like the Leica theory, solid heavy can greatly enhance hand held stability, well at least that's been my expedience.
I am learning more and growing with the Z9 slowly.

On another side note, Now its not your exotic lens, but gee for a exceptional experience with great results, using the Z9 high frame rate, hand held, with the lens VR turned off, don't laugh, but gee my 28-300 delivers some more than pleasing results especially with versatility, i was taken back how well that lens ran with the Z9, what a lot of fun with this greatly underestimated combo, the 28-300 used to smoke on the D4s at 11 fps and was sharp and colorful, and even better at 20 fps LOL. I mean i think maybe its nailing the subject sharply before movent can even begin or be detected ? LOL

Only an opinion

 

[Ken Miracle]

Nice read, great information, Thank you ERIC, Steve's book's and the member's in this forum are just amazingly helpful.

I hope the drill down model Z8 will be at least 60 mp not 45mp and with 12 fps small compact and above all bug free LOL..........that will compliment the Z9.

As to the EVF on my Z9, i have no issues what so ever, i use Steve's settings of +1, i have never seen flickering to date.

The EVF is perfectly usable for me in every way imaginable, and yes the wider i shoot the more i see the DOF, i think this area may even advance in the Z9II hopefully along with more buttons on the top and upper back like the Sony A1.

I find i use the EV adjustment a lot in combination with what i see in teh EVF and it really balances or works well based on the end results, i hope they increase the EC + - range from 5 to maybe 8.

I can even use the EVF held 6, 18 to 24 inches away and pier through like a small back screen, the bright green focus square stands out, with the IBIS and P mode say with my MADLY good 50mm 1.8s i place the focus square on the subject and click, yes as long as your arms can reach even, why i do this, well if i don't want to light the place up with the back LCD screen it helps but above all its easy and i do it a lot. LOL, or if i want to capture a Bee in a flower i cant reach easily i can lower the camera closer to the subject, it works well.

The weight of the Z9 works like the Leica theory, solid heavy can greatly enhance hand held stability, well at least that's been my expedience.
I am learning more and growing with the Z9 slowly.

On another side note, Now its not your exotic lens, but gee for a exceptional experience with great results, using the Z9 high frame rate, hand held, with the lens VR turned off, don't laugh, but gee my 28-300 delivers some more than pleasing results especially with versatility, i was taken back how well that lens ran with the Z9, what a lot of fun with this greatly underestimated combo, the 28-300 used to smoke on the D4s at 11 fps and was sharp and colorful, and even better at 20 fps LOL. I mean i think maybe its nailing the subject sharply before movent can even begin or be detected ? LOL

Only an opinion

The 28-300 was a workhorse on my D4's on my one and only trip to Africa. It got used more than my longer focal lenght combo of D500 and Nikon 200-500. After I got a ripping good copy of a Tamron 150-600 G2, a Sigma 60-600 sport and the surprisingly good Tamron 18-400 and someone made me a great offer for my 28-300 it was sold long before I had a Z9.

 

[O]

The 28-300 was a workhorse on my D4's on my one and only trip to Africa. It got used more than my longer focal lenght combo of D500 and Nikon 200-500. After I got a ripping good copy of a Tamron 150-600 G2, a Sigma 60-600 sport and the surprisingly good Tamron 18-400 and someone made me a great offer for my 28-300 it was sold long before I had a Z9.

WOW Ken, PS whats the Tamron 18-400 like.

My 28-300 is also just a work horse also and its just amazing for the focal range versatility.