Thermal Optics for Wildlife Viewing

[bcgnz]

Thanks - the 10-384 is cheaper right? Should I wait for that since it’s not like this is urgent..

 

[nmerc_photos]

Thanks - the 10-384 is cheaper right? Should I wait for that since it’s not like this is urgent..

The 10-384 does not exist. It's make believe. You may be confusing it with the 10-256.

Your options for a 384 monocular from AGM are the 15, 19, and 25 in the Taipan line and the 25 and 35 in the sidewinder line.

If budget allows, I believe the AGM TM15-384 v2 to be the best price to performance available new on the market, and the Pulsar Helion XP28 is the best if you can find it used. They are far and few between though.

If you must go with a 256 model due to budget, I'd pick the AGM TM10-256.

 

[arbitrage]

I'm struggling with my decision between the AGM 15-384 V2 and the Topdon TS004. That sounds crazy as on paper the 15-384 should be better in every way. And like for like it is better in every way (other than that annoying USB-C charging). The AGM has a way better image off the 384 sensor, you can see what the scene and know what bush or tree you are actually looking at where the 256 sensors (especially in low light) are very difficult to tell. It has a wider FOV than the Topdon which I find ideal. I found the 10-256 a little too wide to really tell what was a subject if it wasn't very close.

But the Topdon's "Bird Mode" on top of the regular white hot, black hot, color and red hot modes that both models have is actually more effective in finding birds. The Bird mode basically darkens everything but the hottest signal and it then seems to boost that top signal to a very white image. I will post some captures I took of my daddy GHO from yesterday morning. Yes I could see him in both models but if I was scanning an area I didn't know I may have missed him with the AGM. With the Topdon he stood out and you'd never miss him if you had him in the VF.

First example is a Barred Owl later that morning (for some reason the AGM image didn't save??). 2nd examples are the GHO before sunrise.

Topdon Bird Mode:

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Topdon Red Hot mode:

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Topdon Bird Mode

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Topdon Red Hot

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AGM 15-384 Red hot:

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[jcnemy]

I'm struggling with my decision between the AGM 15-384 V2 and the Topdon TS004. That sounds crazy as on paper the 15-384 should be better in every way. And like for like it is better in every way (other than that annoying USB-C charging). The AGM has a way better image off the 384 sensor, you can see what the scene and know what bush or tree you are actually looking at where the 256 sensors (especially in low light) are very difficult to tell. It has a wider FOV than the Topdon which I find ideal. I found the 10-256 a little too wide to really tell what was a subject if it wasn't very close.

But the Topdon's "Bird Mode" on top of the regular white hot, black hot, color and red hot modes that both models have is actually more effective in finding birds. The Bird mode basically darkens everything but the hottest signal and it then seems to boost that top signal to a very white image. I will post some captures I took of my daddy GHO from yesterday morning. Yes I could see him in both models but if I was scanning an area I didn't know I may have missed him with the AGM. With the Topdon he stood out and you'd never miss him if you had him in the VF.

First example is a Barred Owl later that morning (for some reason the AGM image didn't save??). 2nd examples are the GHO before sunrise.

Been waiting for this post....and unfortunately, like you, more indecisive than before. I has hoping the AGM was going to be a slam-dunk, especially since I already returned the Topdon. Maybe my owl/bird specimens here have special stealth/cloaking capabilities because I could never get a standout signature???

Well? Hmm....based on your examples, looks like either model meets the basic needs, it's just what are the pros and cons and go from there. As for me....I think I'm going to hold what I have which will be the returned Topdon. I'll continue to monitor and research and possibly re-engage in another thermal later in the year.

Thanks for feedback and picture examples!

 

[arbitrage]

It was raining this morning but I decided to walk a couple trails for half hour or so.
Used the AGM 15-384 to see what I could find.
In that 30mins I found two Cooper's hawks, one of them mowing down on some prey item. Both of them were fairly buried in some messy sticks and I would never have seen either just walking the trail with my camera.
I found the Barred Owl snoozing high up in a tree. Probably would have found him without the thermal as he has some common perches and this was one of them.
I was also on the lookout for Anna's hummingbird nests as they are actively nesting now. The thermal actually found one like 20-30ft above me in a tree. The tiniest little white/red dot was showing up from a ways back. Got close...took a record shot with my camera and zoomed in to see the typical hummer nest made of moss, lichen and spider webs. It was so high I couldn't even see the momma. When the weather improves I'll be back to walk more of the trails to find more hummer nests and hopefully one is at eye level. At this location I often find 1-4 per year just by vision alone so the fact that this thermal can see them is going to be productive I think.

 

[arbitrage]

Some examples of what I found yesterday morning via the AGM 15-384...

Thermo view of the hummer nest way up there!!

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The nest at 300mm and then cropped hard....

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Two different hawks the thermal found buried in the brush. Also iPhone shot of how dense it was...

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[MikeJ]

Am I missing something here? Seems y'all have pretty good success with thermals, while I on the other hand have not had as much success. Maybe I should've gone with a higher end model? I'm less than impressed with the AGM TM10-256 I got. This is a great grey owl, doesn't really stand out like some of the images I've seen from others on here. It was 4:50pm as the image shows, maybe very low teens for the temperature.

 

[arbitrage]

Am I missing something here? Seems y'all have pretty good success with thermals, while I on the other hand have not had as much success. Maybe I should've gone with a higher end model? I'm less than impressed with the AGM TM10-256 I got. This is a great grey owl, doesn't really stand out like some of the images I've seen from others on here. It was 4:50pm as the image shows, maybe very low teens for the temperature.

View attachment 108671

Did you see how the GGO looked on some of the other settings like Red Hot? I haven't found much use for the color setting. Usually too hard to differentiate things.

That said, I also wasn't impressed with he 10-256. Buying the 15-384 V2 is like night and day between the two.

 

[MikeJ]

I cycled through other modes and they were all about the same, though I didn't save any images. I'm on the wait list at B&H for the TM15-384, maybe I'll be more impressed if I get to try that one?

 

[nmerc_photos]

Am I missing something here? Seems y'all have pretty good success with thermals, while I on the other hand have not had as much success. Maybe I should've gone with a higher end model? I'm less than impressed with the AGM TM10-256 I got. This is a great grey owl, doesn't really stand out like some of the images I've seen from others on here. It was 4:50pm as the image shows, maybe very low teens for the temperature.

I find red hot to be the best one for trying to find birds. I have a couple of thoughts about your situation:

1. The TM10-256 is just the cheapest, most easily affordable thermal. I wouldn't expect good results with it.
2. It looks to me like the whole scene was heated up - were you in broad sunlight? If so, that result is similar to what I'd expect even with a more expensive monocular.
3. Did you try different angles of view? Often times if my whole image is showing heat, I need to tilt the monocular up or down to try and cut away some of the sun.

 

[MikeJ]

Yeah, the TM10-256 has left me quite underwhelmed with thermals, pretty sure as soon as the TM15-384 is back in stock at B&H I'll probably be getting that one. As far as your #2 and #3 points, Nick, it was later afternoon but pretty cold out, thinking maybe lower single digits.

The other issue I've seen with mine is some pretty bad banding, or vertical lines. Only thing that helps is a restart. Is this normal or do I have a bad sample?

 

[arbitrage]

I find red hot to be the worst one for trying to find birds. I have a couple of thoughts about your situation:

1. The TM10-256 is just the cheapest, most easily affordable thermal. I wouldn't expect good results with it.
2. It looks to me like the whole scene was heated up - were you in broad sunlight? If so, that result is similar to what I'd expect even with a more expensive monocular.
3. Did you try different angles of view? Often times if my whole image is showing heat, I need to tilt the monocular up or down to try and cut away some of the sun.

Which setting (white, black, red, color) do you find the best? I've mostly been using red with the 15-384.

Got to say though...nothing compares to the Topdon Bird mode....would love AGM to add something like that.

 

[nmerc_photos]

Which setting (white, black, red, color) do you find the best? I've mostly been using red with the 15-384.

Got to say though...nothing compares to the Topdon Bird mode....would love AGM to add something like that.

Whoops sorry, I confused myself. Red hot is the one I use the most. I thought in your reply, you suggested that he stop using red hot (which would have been in screenshot).

So to confirm - red hot is what I usually use.

 

[wildfowler]

Yeah, the TM10-256 has left me quite underwhelmed with thermals, pretty sure as soon as the TM15-384 is back in stock at B&H I'll probably be getting that one. As far as your #2 and #3 points, Nick, it was later afternoon but pretty cold out, thinking maybe lower single digits.

The other issue I've seen with mine is some pretty bad banding, or vertical lines. Only thing that helps is a restart. Is this normal or do I have a bad sample?

View attachment 108715

The last photo. The banding as you describe it is something that happens when the thermal has been in use for a while.

Check you owners manual. There should be function called “NUC” or possibly called “flat field correction” that can be set to occur automatically to correct what you’re seeing on screen.

 

[MikeJ]

Sounds about right, @wildfowler, since a reboot fixes that banding. I'll dig into the owner's manual to see if I can find that flat field correction.

 

[ABaumgardner]

Which setting (white, black, red, color) do you find the best? I've mostly been using red with the 15-384.

Got to say though...nothing compares to the Topdon Bird mode....would love AGM to add something like that.

I'm not sure if I'm yet ready to spend thousands on a higher end unit, but I'm also not sure if I want to spend $1000 on the AGM if it's perhaps only marginally better than the much cheaper Topdon. I think I'd almost prefer to see if I can find some utility with a cheap model and if so then splurge later. Your AGM is the first version, right? Not the V2?

 

[arbitrage]

I'm not sure if I'm yet ready to spend thousands on a higher end unit, but I'm also not sure if I want to spend $1000 on the AGM if it's perhaps only marginally better than the much cheaper Topdon. I think I'd almost prefer to see if I can find some utility with a cheap model and if so then splurge later. Your AGM is the first version, right? Not the V2?

My 15-384 is the V2 with the user replaceable batteries. My 10-256 I had and returned was the V1.

 

[jcnemy]

Some examples of what I found yesterday morning via the AGM 15-384...

Thermo view of the hummer nest way up there!!

Thanks for posting additional example outputs from the 15-384! Still on the fence if I'm going to re-engage in this adventure or nor or wait until later. I suspect there's a solid use-case for thermals during spring/summer, but my photographic interests may have me focus elsewhere. Still monitoring this thread and appreciate all the observations and feedback!

 

[ABaumgardner]

I bought a Topdon TS004 to try it out. I'll report more later, but I'm expecting my experience to be less successful already since I live in the desert. Just out a few minutes with it at about 58 degrees right at sunrise I noticed that once I tilt it up beyond just a few degrees Red Hot becomes mostly useless. Major edges of everything become red, even edges in shadows. My assumption is because more of the cooler sky is in the view everything else starts to look hot by comparison. Is this behavior when looking up typical of even the higher end models?

Some good rain and cloudy periods up coming so I intend to try it out then and well before dawn. Red Hot is picking up some small birds so far with my brief test if I keep it mostly level with the ground. Bird mode has not made any birds pop yet, although I did see how well it could work using a family member as a guinea pig. There may have to be a much stronger temp differential with the environment to make it work on smaller targets. Will report more later in case it helps anyone else. The FOV of the Topdon seems ok to me for where I would generally use it, but I could see it being more tedious in dense forests.

 

[Webbie!]

After I pass away, and someone is helping my wife go through all my stuff, that person is going to say, "Wow, your husband had a lot of camera equipment and paraphernalia!" To which she will reply, "Yes, he was a member of that damn Backcountry Gallery Forum."

I couldn't stand it ... I just Ordered a Topdon TS004.

 

[Frogger]

You and me both.

I have been playing around with the Topodon this week, and have a few observations that seem largely in line with what I've read here:

- it's way better than the Flir Scout I had and returned a year or so ago.
-despite it's lower level heat detection specs, it does what I consider a pretty amazing job at picking up small creatures. Hummingbirds clearly from 100 feet away. Squirrels from 100+ yards away.
-if the sun is out at all, forget it. Unless you are scoping a sand dune or looking for giraffes, the sunglight landing on leaves, branches, etc just creates too many differrentially heated surfaces and the view becomes much too busy to see smaller creatures stand out unless they are clearly moving in a still environment. However in overcast it works well.
-while the field of view is not wide, the fact that it more or less matches the field of view of my other eye is helpful for finding things that light up in the viewfinder with my actual vision.
-one issue I notice in wooded areas is if you get a color return from a smaller creature, it's hard to tell how far away from you it is. If you can't immediately see it with your eyes when you remove the unit, you have to kind of move around and triangulate to figure out if it's in the bush 30' from you, or 100' behind that bush.
-from what little I've used it it was well worth less than 400 bucks and I'm sure will have it's moments.

Here is a barred owl that I found while scanning around me with the unit this afternoon, it was about 40-50' away. Not exactly buried in the vegetation, but I could have easily walked past it had I not first seen a funny shape in white in the viewfinder, and then as i changed angle a little bit (or maybe the owl did) the pink lit up.

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[ABaumgardner]

@nmerc_photos , have you ever used the brightness and contrast controls in "User Mode" on your Pulsar units? I don't know if the Helicon XP28 has that feature, but it looks like the Telos XP50 does according to the manual. Is it useful at all as implemented?

 

[arbitrage]

I bought a Topdon TS004 to try it out. I'll report more later, but I'm expecting my experience to be less successful already since I live in the desert. Just out a few minutes with it at about 58 degrees right at sunrise I noticed that once I tilt it up beyond just a few degrees Red Hot becomes mostly useless. Major edges of everything become red, even edges in shadows. My assumption is because more of the cooler sky is in the view everything else starts to look hot by comparison. Is this behavior when looking up typical of even the higher end models?

Some good rain and cloudy periods up coming so I intend to try it out then and well before dawn. Red Hot is picking up some small birds so far with my brief test if I keep it mostly level with the ground. Bird mode has not made any birds pop yet, although I did see how well it could work using a family member as a guinea pig. There may have to be a much stronger temp differential with the environment to make it work on smaller targets. Will report more later in case it helps anyone else. The FOV of the Topdon seems ok to me for where I would generally use it, but I could see it being more tedious in dense forests.

In my limited experience with two AGM units and the Topdon I would say that once the sky is in the shot the usefulness of the thermal goes way down. Especially scanning high tree tops...the Topdon actually does better scanning tall trees agains the sky than either AGM unit. I've had mostly cloudy skies and have been going out before first light but when I have tried it with sunlight going through the trees it also seems much less useful as you get so many distracting signals from just sunbeams sides of trees in the sun vs those in the shade.

 

[nmerc_photos]

@nmerc_photos , have you ever used the brightness and contrast controls in "User Mode" on your Pulsar units? I don't know if the Helicon XP28 has that feature, but it looks like the Telos XP50 does according to the manual. Is it useful at all as implemented?

Yes, I regularly adjust the brightness and contrast controls on my Pulsar units. It can sometimes make a huge difference in being able to detect things.

 

[arbitrage]

Well today is the day I have to make my decision between the Topdon and the AGM 15-384 as it is the last day I can return my Topdon to Amazon.
I'm not sure why I'm still conflicted over the decision....I guess it is because the Topdon does pretty well and is half the price of the AGM. The Topdon "Bird Mode" is a big plus for it. But the FOV of the 15-384 is preferable. The 15-384's better sensor is nice to be able to tell what tree/bush you are actually looking at when you remove your eye from the scope and try with your camera. But the better sensor of the 15-384 can sometimes make it more difficult to quickly scan and realize a bird is there as there are many more brightness variations and trees can be much closer to the bird's brightness level than it is on the Topdon (especially if the Topdon is in Bird mode). I like the user replaceable batteries as one can imagine over time the Topdon's battery will loose capacity and charging performance and there will be no solution. I do like that the Topdon can charge off of any of my USB-C wall bricks and USB-C to USB-C cables where the AGM requires a USB-A to USB-C cable. One small negative for the Topdon is the eyepiece can dislodge easily and I've almost lost it a couple times. Currently I have it secured with Gaffer's tape to make sure I didn't lose it if I was going to return it. But if I keep it that will have to be the way I run it unless I crazy glue the thing on there.

I'm taking them both out one more time this morning and then will make my decision. If I really can't decide I guess I will return Topdon and continue using AGM...could still change my mind before the AGM's return window and reorder the Topdon if I really have buyer's remorse over the 2x more expensive AGM.