Saint
Member
What do think they are charging customers for the LRF's in these units? It seems like every unit Pulsar is making these days come with a range finder, which probably is great for hunting, but does nothing for me really.
Thermal Optics for Wildlife Viewing
- Thread starter nmerc_photos
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Saint
Member
That XP35 was awesome, no eye strain at all. If it would have had a higher sensor, I would have been all over that, lol.
wildfowler
Active member
Armasight used to be a standalone company many moons ago.
Then FLIR bought the company when FLIR decided to expand their consumer thermal products line only to then discontinue their consumer thermal products line a few short years later.
It is my understanding that the name Armasight is now back in business.
FLIR had just introduced their Boson 12 µm core but never offered it with a 640 resolution system that had a reticle or a provision to mount it to a weapon before they pulled the plug on their consumer product expansion.
FLIR briefly made weapon sights using their 320 resolution Boson thermal cores. I have one of those also as well as that helmet sight I was talking about earlier. They were not terribly expensive for what you got at the time. But for today’s standards, there are better products that cost less than those did.
FLIR does have the Scion handheld scanner with the 640 core. I’ve never looked at it because I got a little put off at the fact that they abandoned what was otherwise a really good product they were offering.
I’ve honestly never had a desire to own a handheld thermal scanner because I have other thermal devices, but what y’all are wanting to do with them makes pretty good sense for something small and compact.
I have only looked through one thermal system that used a 256 resolution core. (it might’ve even been a 160 ) That was an old FLIR handheld. It was terrible. I actually had trouble spotting an armadillo, just a few steps away from me. The one time I looked through it.
At that time, FLIR was not known for having much to look at. This was probably 12-15 years ago, well before they bought Armasight.
I personally have always recommended a minimum of 320 and whenever possible step up to the 640. But that’s only because I really don’t have any experience with anything with less resolution than that.
But if all you were going to do is try and spot something that is frame filling photograph distance away then any of these should work, and something with the largest field of view would probably be desirable.
I think at short distance you wouldn’t have any trouble spotting something with a 256 sensor.
Additionally, there was another company was offering their version of a FLIR Breach with a 640 resolution sensor. I think it may have been the company AGM and they called it the Sting-IR. But someone posted a link for something else by that company and I didn’t see it on their website so I don’t know if they abandoned it or what?
I don’t think it was ever officially released, but there was product information online, and I even called and spoke to the manufacturer about it and was excited that it was going to be available since it had the same exact form factor as the Breach which is tiny.
I had actually forgotten the name Armasight. Anything that company had to offer was generally well respected and a good product. I had personally used one of their scopes for several outings and liked it.
Something small that can easily fit in a shirt pocket seems like the way to go for this purpose. Or worn around your neck on a lanyard so you don’t lose it.
I might actually put my breach on a lanyard and try it out a few times to see if it’s really helpful with my photography. I saw a bunch of Ruby throated kinglets outside my kitchen window in that tree line 30 yards away from my porch yesterday and of course, when I went out today with my camera, I didn’t see a single one and thought about this topic on this website.
Also, I wanted to say something about looking up at birds flying overhead at night.
Someone asked about that and yes, you can definitely see a flock of geese or any kind of birds flying overhead with a thermal camera.
If there is a solid cloud bank, you will have no trouble seeing the birds, but if it’s a clear night in particular, you can get a lot of feedback for lack of a better term when a thermal is looking straight up at a clear, blank sky. It can be difficult to see the birds under certain conditions.
Same thing can happen when looking up at through a tree with a clear sky in the background. I have honestly never looked up at the top of a tree to try and spot an animal during daylight hours, so I don’t know if this phenomenon only occurs at night or if it is a standard side effect of looking up at a clear sky?
It’s been cloudy ever since I’ve been participating in this topic in my area so I haven’t been able to go out on a clear day or night to try and verify this.
I just know there are certain times when I can look up and see a coon in the top of a tree and other times you get a lot of sky distorting the overall scene you are looking at making it more difficult to see the animal in the top of the tree. And if memory serves correct that happens more commonly when it is clear, but it might be associated with clear and low humidity?
Most of what I always tried to do with my thermal did not involve having the sky in the background.
Then FLIR bought the company when FLIR decided to expand their consumer thermal products line only to then discontinue their consumer thermal products line a few short years later.
It is my understanding that the name Armasight is now back in business.
FLIR had just introduced their Boson 12 µm core but never offered it with a 640 resolution system that had a reticle or a provision to mount it to a weapon before they pulled the plug on their consumer product expansion.
FLIR briefly made weapon sights using their 320 resolution Boson thermal cores. I have one of those also as well as that helmet sight I was talking about earlier. They were not terribly expensive for what you got at the time. But for today’s standards, there are better products that cost less than those did.
FLIR does have the Scion handheld scanner with the 640 core. I’ve never looked at it because I got a little put off at the fact that they abandoned what was otherwise a really good product they were offering.
I’ve honestly never had a desire to own a handheld thermal scanner because I have other thermal devices, but what y’all are wanting to do with them makes pretty good sense for something small and compact.
I have only looked through one thermal system that used a 256 resolution core. (it might’ve even been a 160 ) That was an old FLIR handheld. It was terrible. I actually had trouble spotting an armadillo, just a few steps away from me. The one time I looked through it.
At that time, FLIR was not known for having much to look at. This was probably 12-15 years ago, well before they bought Armasight.
I personally have always recommended a minimum of 320 and whenever possible step up to the 640. But that’s only because I really don’t have any experience with anything with less resolution than that.
But if all you were going to do is try and spot something that is frame filling photograph distance away then any of these should work, and something with the largest field of view would probably be desirable.
I think at short distance you wouldn’t have any trouble spotting something with a 256 sensor.
Additionally, there was another company was offering their version of a FLIR Breach with a 640 resolution sensor. I think it may have been the company AGM and they called it the Sting-IR. But someone posted a link for something else by that company and I didn’t see it on their website so I don’t know if they abandoned it or what?
I don’t think it was ever officially released, but there was product information online, and I even called and spoke to the manufacturer about it and was excited that it was going to be available since it had the same exact form factor as the Breach which is tiny.
I had actually forgotten the name Armasight. Anything that company had to offer was generally well respected and a good product. I had personally used one of their scopes for several outings and liked it.
Something small that can easily fit in a shirt pocket seems like the way to go for this purpose. Or worn around your neck on a lanyard so you don’t lose it.
I might actually put my breach on a lanyard and try it out a few times to see if it’s really helpful with my photography. I saw a bunch of Ruby throated kinglets outside my kitchen window in that tree line 30 yards away from my porch yesterday and of course, when I went out today with my camera, I didn’t see a single one and thought about this topic on this website.
Also, I wanted to say something about looking up at birds flying overhead at night.
Someone asked about that and yes, you can definitely see a flock of geese or any kind of birds flying overhead with a thermal camera.
If there is a solid cloud bank, you will have no trouble seeing the birds, but if it’s a clear night in particular, you can get a lot of feedback for lack of a better term when a thermal is looking straight up at a clear, blank sky. It can be difficult to see the birds under certain conditions.
Same thing can happen when looking up at through a tree with a clear sky in the background. I have honestly never looked up at the top of a tree to try and spot an animal during daylight hours, so I don’t know if this phenomenon only occurs at night or if it is a standard side effect of looking up at a clear sky?
It’s been cloudy ever since I’ve been participating in this topic in my area so I haven’t been able to go out on a clear day or night to try and verify this.
I just know there are certain times when I can look up and see a coon in the top of a tree and other times you get a lot of sky distorting the overall scene you are looking at making it more difficult to see the animal in the top of the tree. And if memory serves correct that happens more commonly when it is clear, but it might be associated with clear and low humidity?
Most of what I always tried to do with my thermal did not involve having the sky in the background.
wildfowler
Active member
I always hated marketing.
I noticed that it seemed like you’d have a hard time buying one of those products without getting an LRF with it.
I hunt with my gear and personally don’t have a use for a LRF in something that’s not a scope.
I’m not sure if the one I personally looked through did or not because the owner didn’t specify anything about that to us when we were using it. But both of our scopes do have an LRF so I guess there was no need to talk about it.
nmerc_photos
Well-known member
For Pulsar specifically, you can see most of the modern models have a $500 difference between LRF and non-LRF.
IE XP50 when I bought it at retail last year was $4K with LRF, $3.5K without.
I did find it pretty useful even when not hunting. It's nice to know how far away a subject is, and make a determination whether it's worth it to try and get closer or not. It's also just a cool little showoff thing for "ooh" and "ahhh" when you're around a crowd who isn't used to thermals or range finders.
Still learning but here are a few quick shots from this morning with my AGM TM10-256. I heard some small birds in the bushes at the lake so those are pics 1&2. Pic #3 is a bird in the bush outside my house, maybe 20ft away.
I took some shots while looking in the trees at the park but must have to play with the settings. I'm using the red highlight option on the b&w background. A few trees in the shots had red marks from the sun being out. That can be confusing.
Best to All,
Vinny
I took some shots while looking in the trees at the park but must have to play with the settings. I'm using the red highlight option on the b&w background. A few trees in the shots had red marks from the sun being out. That can be confusing.
Best to All,
Vinny
Attachments
Saint
Member
I want to thank Wildflower and nmerc for all the information. I just bought the Pulsar Merger LRF XT50, can't wait to try it out. The information and photos in this thread have been awesome, thank again nmerc, awesome review of your experiences.
nmerc_photos
Well-known member
dang you don't mess around! straight to one of the highest spec'd and most expensive units out there
can't wait to hear your review once you get to play with it
arbitrage
Well-known member
Update on my journey:
I have returned the AGM 10-256. Just felt with such a wide FOV and lower end sensor it was hard to pick out things unless they were fairly close.
I have kept the Topdon as I felt I could see things easier with it. This is a much narrower FOV which does require more scanning and I used it mostly in vertical/portrait orientation as I walked trails scanning both sides. The Topdon FOV is very similar to one's normal vision FOV so it is easier to tell what tree or bush I'm actually looking at. I also liked its "Bird" mode which really darkens everything else except for the brightest areas. AGM doesn't have that type of mode.
But...
I ordered an Amazon Warehouse (slight damage to box) for 50% off the AGM 15-384. Being 50% off it isn't the V2 of course but for the price I'm going to try it out.
If the AGM 15-384 is satisfying then I will return the Topdon. If not, I will keep the Topdon and return the AGM.
I might even be happier with the AGM 19-384 or 25-384 as I sort of prefer the bit narrower FOV but no good deals on those and I'm not looking to spend the big bucks on the Pulsar at this time.
I have returned the AGM 10-256. Just felt with such a wide FOV and lower end sensor it was hard to pick out things unless they were fairly close.
I have kept the Topdon as I felt I could see things easier with it. This is a much narrower FOV which does require more scanning and I used it mostly in vertical/portrait orientation as I walked trails scanning both sides. The Topdon FOV is very similar to one's normal vision FOV so it is easier to tell what tree or bush I'm actually looking at. I also liked its "Bird" mode which really darkens everything else except for the brightest areas. AGM doesn't have that type of mode.
But...
I ordered an Amazon Warehouse (slight damage to box) for 50% off the AGM 15-384. Being 50% off it isn't the V2 of course but for the price I'm going to try it out.
If the AGM 15-384 is satisfying then I will return the Topdon. If not, I will keep the Topdon and return the AGM.
I might even be happier with the AGM 19-384 or 25-384 as I sort of prefer the bit narrower FOV but no good deals on those and I'm not looking to spend the big bucks on the Pulsar at this time.
Let us know how the AGM 15-384 works for you. I will probably be ordering the V2 in a few weeks but just not quite there yet.
Krishnakotti
Well-known member
arbitrage
Well-known member
Yes. That is the one I still have. But may replace with the AGM 15-384.
It is a much narrower FOV than the AGM but I found it easier to see things and figure out which bush/tree they were actually on.
The faster 50hz refresh compared to the AGM 10-256 allowed me to pan around quicker but it does take more time to scan a given area with that narrower FOV.
I'm hoping the higher resolution and 50hz refresh on the AGM 15-384 with the wider FOV will be the best of both worlds.
jcnemy
Member
A little late to the party here...did some research last week and totally overlooked checking out the forums here...so this post is very timely since I purchased the Topdon TS004 as mentioned in several post here.
Initial use really has me doubtful on this unit. Yes, the FOV takes a bit to get used to and if I had read this post before purchasing, I may have skipped this unit...but hindsight is always 20-20.
Biggest complaint so far is the lack of picking up subjects. I tested on a known located great horned owl and after I was able to locate it with my naked eye, it did not register at all with the TS004...and that was using all the various modes. He did re-perch several times and again and it didn't pick up any heat signatures. I could see its silhouette...but it looked like a part of the branch. This was about 30 minutes before sunset on a cold day...probably in the single digits. So - suspecting the owl was fluffed so much, his insolation prevented any heat from escaping?
Anyways - like Arbitrage....I'm still testing/using it to see if it's my technique or my expectations require a more capable, and I'm sure more expensive unit. I suspect this adventure reeks of 'you get what you pay for' and if to meet expectations and requirements....buy once and cry once.
nmerc and others - thanks for all the awesome info and observations...very helpful!!! Just wish I saw this sooner...but definitely monitoring this post for updates and hope to add some as well!
Initial use really has me doubtful on this unit. Yes, the FOV takes a bit to get used to and if I had read this post before purchasing, I may have skipped this unit...but hindsight is always 20-20.
Biggest complaint so far is the lack of picking up subjects. I tested on a known located great horned owl and after I was able to locate it with my naked eye, it did not register at all with the TS004...and that was using all the various modes. He did re-perch several times and again and it didn't pick up any heat signatures. I could see its silhouette...but it looked like a part of the branch. This was about 30 minutes before sunset on a cold day...probably in the single digits. So - suspecting the owl was fluffed so much, his insolation prevented any heat from escaping?
Anyways - like Arbitrage....I'm still testing/using it to see if it's my technique or my expectations require a more capable, and I'm sure more expensive unit. I suspect this adventure reeks of 'you get what you pay for' and if to meet expectations and requirements....buy once and cry once.
nmerc and others - thanks for all the awesome info and observations...very helpful!!! Just wish I saw this sooner...but definitely monitoring this post for updates and hope to add some as well!
arbitrage
Well-known member
I went to a known GHO nest last weekend with mom in the nest and within a couple seconds the Topdon located the male in a tree nearby and he lit up really well. This was at dawn with temps around 7C so maybe that made it easier??
Krishnakotti
Well-known member
I just ordered Topdon. I will update soon with my experience. I only want to use them for owls in night
TonyF
Well-known member
I bought a previous gen PF635 to get the bigger sensor/better range on moorlands and work OK on birds (within reason) at a good price. Nearly £600 pounds off in the UK. It would cost me almost double to get the same spec out of the latest range so I'm happy to take the internal battery gamble. UK importer (Thomas Jacks) is really good and responsive and will even support you if you buy from Uttings UK.
jcnemy
Member
Thanks for the feedback. Were you using the 'Bird' mode by chance? Maybe it was just too cold when I hadmy prime testing experience with the owl being super fluffed, insulating himself. I'm going to give it another week before I decide, but I have to be honest and possibly something I'll have to invest more, is really looking for an experience like nmerc's initial post...that obvious standout when scanning.
Congrats and look forward to hearing your feedback!
arbitrage
Well-known member
Yes, I'm pretty sure I was using Bird mode as I used that 90% of the time while doing my testing. But I often would flip through the other modes after finding something in Bird mode to see how it looked in those modes and it was always showing in the other modes. I just found Bird mode to be less distracting as it negates the smaller temp variations and just focuses one's attention on the real hot spots which in my testing were birds, squirrels, humans walking dogs and electrical equipment/street lamps.
jcnemy
Member
Good to know and agree...seems like the best mode for the most part.
Quick overall update: I took a quick hike around one of my routine stomping grounds with TS004, hoping to spot a GHO that's been in the area the past few months. The weather was much better, low 40s and most of the area was still shaded before the rising sun washed out everything....I was surprised, the unit picked up hiding rabbits in thick brush and many smaller birds perched eye-level....they almost looked like lighted Christmas ornaments when looking through the scope.
Didn't see the GHO, so could not compare and contrast it's a capability in that regards...but some promising results when used with ideal conditions....cooler, unheated areas which allow wildlife to pop and stand out.
Yeah, I know...I'm playing the role of Captain Obvious with that last statement.
deeno
Member
Thank you Captain Obvious for that actually
> cooler, unheated areas which allow wildlife to pop and stand out.
I am about as green as it gets to this and it is nice to understand expectations on the equipment since I don't have anyone locally to borrow/learn from
> cooler, unheated areas which allow wildlife to pop and stand out.
I am about as green as it gets to this and it is nice to understand expectations on the equipment since I don't have anyone locally to borrow/learn from
arbitrage
Well-known member
15-384 arrived yesterday so will take it out and test it alongside the Topdon this morning. Of course my A1II also arrived yesterday so I may be busy. 
jcnemy
Member
Yep, I hear ya. Still working on my tactics. Drove around this morning before sunrise and picked up a small mammal (possum, raccoon, or skunk) perfectly in a dark creek bed. Still need to see how to make it an effective tool when using during lighted hours...so it's figuring out how to decipher wildlife versus hotspots. Maybe that's impossible, but then again, taking pictures of wildlife you found in the dark is impossible as well.
15-384 arrived yesterday so will take it out and test it alongside the Topdon this morning. Of course my A1II also arrived yesterday so I may be busy.
Awesome and looking forward to your thoughts and such, especially since you've experienced the TS004.
arbitrage
Well-known member
So I headed out to my GHO nest with the Topdon and the "15-384"...stay tuned for why I put that in quotations.
I walked the trails through the woods towards the nest and was not impressed at all with the AGM. I got to the nest and saw the male GHO in the same tree he was last time. So I aimed the AGM at him and it didn't show anything. Topdon lit up his eyes at least. But it wasn't lighting up his whole body as it did last weekend. So I guess overnight temps or when he started roosting must have changed his heat.
But then I was getting confused as the zoom markings on the AGM were not starting at 1.0x but instead 1.5x. So instead of 1, 2, 4, 8x it was going 1.5, 3, 6, 12x. That didn't make sense, checked the user manual and it stated the zooms were 1, 2, 4, 8. So then I decided to look at the serial # label on the scope....well not surprised that instead of 15-384 it said 15-256...
. When I got home, I confirmed the box was for the 15-384. So my guess is someone pulled a switcheroo on Amazon and had both and sent back the 15-256 in the 15-384 box. I got this as an Amazon Warehouse deal at 50% off and of course there are no more of those at this time. Return is started and it will be heading back to Amazon. All I learned is the 15-256 has similar FOV as Topdon but doesn't work near as well as the Topdon. Would not recommend over the Topdon.
I wish I could try the 15-384 before my return window ends for the Topdon but I may just give up and keep the Topdon as it is working fairly well for what I want it for.
Oh well, on a brighter note the A1II could recognize the eye of momma owl lying down in the nest with only one eye visible where as the A1 couldn't recognize her at all.
I walked the trails through the woods towards the nest and was not impressed at all with the AGM. I got to the nest and saw the male GHO in the same tree he was last time. So I aimed the AGM at him and it didn't show anything. Topdon lit up his eyes at least. But it wasn't lighting up his whole body as it did last weekend. So I guess overnight temps or when he started roosting must have changed his heat.
But then I was getting confused as the zoom markings on the AGM were not starting at 1.0x but instead 1.5x. So instead of 1, 2, 4, 8x it was going 1.5, 3, 6, 12x. That didn't make sense, checked the user manual and it stated the zooms were 1, 2, 4, 8. So then I decided to look at the serial # label on the scope....well not surprised that instead of 15-384 it said 15-256...
. When I got home, I confirmed the box was for the 15-384. So my guess is someone pulled a switcheroo on Amazon and had both and sent back the 15-256 in the 15-384 box. I got this as an Amazon Warehouse deal at 50% off and of course there are no more of those at this time. Return is started and it will be heading back to Amazon. All I learned is the 15-256 has similar FOV as Topdon but doesn't work near as well as the Topdon. Would not recommend over the Topdon.I wish I could try the 15-384 before my return window ends for the Topdon but I may just give up and keep the Topdon as it is working fairly well for what I want it for.
Oh well, on a brighter note the A1II could recognize the eye of momma owl lying down in the nest with only one eye visible where as the A1 couldn't recognize her at all.
jcnemy
Member
That stinks! Yeah, sucks to be the recipient of a 'switch-a-roo'! At least I hope the return process is quick and easy for you.So I headed out to my GHO nest with the Topdon and the "15-384"...stay tuned for why I put that in quotations.
I walked the trails through the woods towards the nest and was not impressed at all with the AGM. I got to the nest and saw the male GHO in the same tree he was last time. So I aimed the AGM at him and it didn't show anything. Topdon lit up his eyes at least. But it wasn't lighting up his whole body as it did last weekend. So I guess overnight temps or when he started roosting must have changed his heat.
But then I was getting confused as the zoom markings on the AGM were not starting at 1.0x but instead 1.5x. So instead of 1, 2, 4, 8x it was going 1.5, 3, 6, 12x. That didn't make sense, checked the user manual and it stated the zooms were 1, 2, 4, 8. So then I decided to look at the serial # label on the scope....well not surprised that instead of 15-384 it said 15-256...
I wish I could try the 15-384 before my return window ends for the Topdon but I may just give up and keep the Topdon as it is working fairly well for what I want it for.
Oh well, on a brighter note the A1II could recognize the eye of momma owl lying down in the nest with only one eye visible where as the A1 couldn't recognize her at all.
With that - thanks for the feedback between the 256 and TS004. Nice to hear that the Topdon is being competitive and making a name for itself. Speaking of, I worked more on 'daylight' techniques and started to get an idea of how best to use it in and out of direct sunlight. Still really need more known subjects so I can get a better idea how they look through the thermal viewfinder. I'm going to stop by a reliable location where a barred owl likes his picture taken and get an idea of how this thing will work with the setting sun and then sunset. More to follow.
arbitrage
Well-known member
Well down the rabbit hole again....just saw the V2 15-384 show up on Amazon Canada for significantly cheaper than the V1 sells for ($1314 for the V2 vs $1646 for V1). So I ordered one and will be here Monday. Will see how this goes......I blame it all on Nick....LOL