Why do mirrorless cameras struggle with red?

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Maljo said:
Have not noticed any problem with focusing on red birds or red anything, actually.
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I have no explanation, but I guess it’s just me and Jeff that are experiencing this Lol It happened yesterday as a matter fact, and like I said earlier in the thread, I shoot with these cameras, most of the time seven days a week whether doing macro or wildlife or whatever so familiarity with these cameras is something I could do blindfolded at this point. One thing that I’ve been reading about is some articles about people that are colorblind. It states that they can’t differentiate any contrast between red and green because it’s so close in the spectrum of colors so maybe its something along those lines. I mean the cameras will grab a warbler, eye in the middle of a thicket, but sometimes not grab focus on the cardinal 20 feet away with a green background. Honestly, the distance doesn’t seem to make a difference as well because it doesn’t matter if it’s 20 feet away or 60 feet away whenever it happens and just will not acquire focus unless helping it. Thats on all three Sony bodies I have including the new A7R5, which does seem better at focusing in general than the A1. It’s like I stated on here as well a few months ago that the A1 cameras will drop focus regularly when a bird gets near the water but no one on here claims to have ever experienced that. So maybe it’s just me lol.
 
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sh1209 said:
I have no explanation, but I guess it’s just me and Jeff that are experiencing this Lol It happened yesterday as a matter fact, and like I said earlier in the thread, I shoot with these cameras, most of the time seven days a week whether doing macro or wildlife or whatever so familiarity with these cameras is something I could do blindfolded at this point. One thing that I’ve been reading about is some articles about people that are colorblind. It states that they can’t differentiate any contrast between red and green because it’s so close in the spectrum of colors so maybe its something along those lines. I mean the cameras will grab a warbler, eye in the middle of a thicket, but sometimes not grab focus on the cardinal 20 feet away with a green background. Honestly, the distance doesn’t seem to make a difference as well because it doesn’t matter if it’s 20 feet away or 60 feet away whenever it happens and just will not acquire focus unless helping it. Thats on all three Sony bodies I have including the new A7R5, which does seem better at focusing in general than the A1. It’s like I stated on here as well a few months ago that the A1 cameras will drop focus regularly when a bird gets near the water but no one on here claims to have ever experienced that. So maybe it’s just me lol.
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I had my R7 out yesterday and, fortunately, a couple Summer Tanagers were in the area. In the below shots, image 1 took a couple attempts to lock in focus on the bird. Once it locked in it stayed with it as I shot a couple short bursts. In the second photo, the camera locked in almost instantly. The 3 differences I see in the situations.
1) the bird in number 1 is closer to the leaves and the leaves are a darker green.
2) photo 2 not only is there more separation between the bird and the background, the leaves behind him are more of a yellow color instead of dark green.
3) the second image, the bird and the branches he is on are more vertical or diagonal while the bird in photo 1 is more horizontal. I have heard mirrorless AF systems sometimes get tripped up with horizontal lines.
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jeffnles1 said:
I had my R7 out yesterday and, fortunately, a couple Summer Tanagers were in the area. In the below shots, image 1 took a couple attempts to lock in focus on the bird. Once it locked in it stayed with it as I shot a couple short bursts. In the second photo, the camera locked in almost instantly. The 3 differences I see in the situations.
1) the bird in number 1 is closer to the leaves and the leaves are a darker green.
2) photo 2 not only is there more separation between the bird and the background, the leaves behind him are more of a yellow color instead of dark green.
3) the second image, the bird and the branches he is on are more vertical or diagonal while the bird in photo 1 is more horizontal. I have heard mirrorless AF systems sometimes get tripped up with horizontal lines.
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That’s what I’m experiencing as well if I’m understanding you right as whenever the bird is closer to the foliage. If the green is more at a distance, it doesn’t seem to have that problem, but if I have a cardinal facing me, sitting among the leaves, it struggles quite frequently.
 
sh1209 said:
I have no explanation, but I guess it’s just me and Jeff that are experiencing this Lol It happened yesterday as a matter fact, and like I said earlier in the thread, I shoot with these cameras, most of the time seven days a week whether doing macro or wildlife or whatever so familiarity with these cameras is something I could do blindfolded at this point. One thing that I’ve been reading about is some articles about people that are colorblind. It states that they can’t differentiate any contrast between red and green because it’s so close in the spectrum of colors so maybe its something along those lines. I mean the cameras will grab a warbler, eye in the middle of a thicket, but sometimes not grab focus on the cardinal 20 feet away with a green background. Honestly, the distance doesn’t seem to make a difference as well because it doesn’t matter if it’s 20 feet away or 60 feet away whenever it happens and just will not acquire focus unless helping it. Thats on all three Sony bodies I have including the new A7R5, which does seem better at focusing in general than the A1. It’s like I stated on here as well a few months ago that the A1 cameras will drop focus regularly when a bird gets near the water but no one on here claims to have ever experienced that. So maybe it’s just me lol.
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Just because folks can post a picture of a red bird doesn't prove the problem doesn't exist. I'm sure you can post hundreds of sharp red birds. Maybe your definition of critical focus is refined, or we just pump the focus and try again when we miss the target, while you expect the camera to do its job reliably.
 
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bleirer said:
Just because folks can post a picture of a red bird doesn't prove the problem doesn't exist. I'm sure you can post hundreds of sharp red birds. Maybe your definition of critical focus is refined, or we just pump the focus and try again when we miss the target, while you expect the camera to do its job reliably.
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Exactly. I just posted some reasonably sharp red birds but the issue I've seen, and it's not a huge issue just something I've noticed under some specific circumstances, that eventually I can nail focus but the camera sometimes struggles to lock on when faced with this specific situation.
Jeff
 
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Just as an experiment I would try to under expose a little to se if that would make a difference. Red overexposes easily and maybe it’s having trouble because of lack of detail if it reads off of the monitor. Just something to try.
 
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sh1209 said:
I don’t know if any of you have noticed, but every mirrorless camera I have had, which includes both generations of Nikon, Z6&7, Z9, Sony A1, and now a A7RV. If you’re trying to photograph a bird such as a summer Tanager or male cardinal for example, all of these cameras struggle to lock on for initial focus. It doesn’t matter what setting or mode you are in. Perhaps it’s something with sensor technology because on DSLR cameras, there was never any difference whatsoever in being able to acquire focus on red subjects. I have went as far as even setting up a red stuffed animal in the house and one of a neutral color, and every camera I have tried shows a substantial difference in the initial acquisition of focus on red. I’m just curious if any of you have experienced this, and if you have found a workaround. The A7RV seems to be the best of the bunch but still exhibits this issue. I have had male cardinals sitting on a branch with no obstructions 10 yards away, and my Sony A1, unless I grab the focus ring, will not acquire focus. It’s just really strange to me and I don’t understand why.
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I've had m ore problems with the contrast detect AF with earlier mirrorless cameras than with anything else.
Now phase detect AF is coming back there seems less problems ... 🦘
 
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sh1209 said:
I only owned the Nikon Z9 for about four months, but it did do this with the 500 PF several times as did both versions of the Z6 and Z7. It is nearly every time you have a dark red subject with green foliage all around it. I don’t know if it just confuses the sensor or it just can’t process the contrast between those two or what. I don’t know how the conditions are where you live this time of year, but just humor me and try to find a red subject with green surroundings and you will certainly see this happen unless the firmware updates in the Z9 have corrected issues from the original version. I think my Z9 had maybe one update before I sold it.
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This happened to me just today, trying to photograph a Purple Finch (mostly red) against a green background. I had to manually get the focus close, and then the eye detection kicked in.
 
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This is interesting. In our driveway we get many Rainbow Lorrikeets feeding on the fruit fronds of Umbrella Trees. The birds have a red eye surrounded by a blue head. The fruit is red too. They are only 4-5m away from where I can photograph them off the deck of our house. With my a7iv and 100-400 GM it struggles to get eye focus. Does sometimes after a while but often never. I have tried a number of settings. Maybe this is the reason 🤔
 

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KP Birder said:
This happened to me just today, trying to photograph a Purple Finch (mostly red) against a green background. I had to manually get the focus close, and then the eye detection kicked in.
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Yeah it’s strange and very annoying when it happens. It so weird that the subject will be right in front of you and it’s like why the hell can’t you see that lol.
 
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sh1209 said:
Yeah it’s strange and very annoying when it happens. It so weird that the subject will be right in front of you and it’s like why the hell can’t you see that lol.
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Interesting that we are not the only ones. Just yesterday I had a cardinal in the leaves and tapping the focus ring to get close worked. A few seconds later the bird went out on the end of a branch against a blue sky and it nailed the focus even the eye faster than I could react. I think it is something about red and green. Not sure what it is but for sure seems to be “there”.
Jeff
 
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jeffnles1 said:
Interesting that we are not the only ones. Just yesterday I had a cardinal in the leaves and tapping the focus ring to get close worked. A few seconds later the bird went out on the end of a branch against a blue sky and it nailed the focus even the eye faster than I could react. I think it is something about red and green. Not sure what it is but for sure seems to be “there”.
Jeff
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I think you are exactly right because the more green that’s in the scene, the more problematic it becomes, and it is very consistent
 
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I photographed my first and only Summer Tanager here in idaho this year and no problem with focus ... of coures it was a female and they are not red :ROFLMAO:

We get almost no red birds here like your Summer Tanagers and Cardinal. We had a male Summer Tanager Come through and I did not find out about it until late the next day and went for a look but no luck.
 
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I haven't noticed any issues with any of the mirrorless bodies I've shot (Z6, A9II, A1, OM-1) with red birds such as Northern Cardinals, Scarlet Tanagers or Crossbills. I was just shooting Scarlet Tanagers yesterday with the OM-1 and the AF behaved as expected locking onto the eye. Sorry, wish I could be of more help.
 
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I forgot about Crossbills they can be quite red but have not shot any yet this year but do not remember any issues last year.

Just a thought ... I do not know what the corresponding terminology is in Sony but in Nikon what impact of the picture control used could be ... including the settings within the picture control. Are those having trouble using different settings there than those not having issues? The picture controls and settings within have been reported to have various focus impacts in the past although I have not been aware of it ... I use Standard in Nikon with +1 on saturation primarily because it gives me the best natural colors for bird ID photos.
 
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Ken Miracle said:
I forgot about Crossbills they can be quite red but have not shot any yet this year but do not remember any issues last year.

Just a thought ... I do not know what the corresponding terminology is in Sony but in Nikon what impact of the picture control used could be ... including the settings within the picture control. Are those having trouble using different settings there than those not having issues? The picture controls and settings within have been reported to have various focus impacts in the past although I have not been aware of it ... I use Standard in Nikon with +1 on saturation primarily because it gives me the best natural colors for bird ID photos.
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I also use the standard profile in Sony. It’s certainly not the end of the world but odd no other color has any issues whatsoever.
 
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Wes Peterson said:
I shot cardinals against a green background all morning with a Z9 and adapted 600FL lens with a 2X TC..... Zero issues.
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Very strange and I honestly have no clue what causes it. I can have a male indigo bunting land in the same tree as the cardinal which to my eyes seems to have less contrast and it will immediately pick up the eye. It’s easily resolved with a quick bump of the focus ring but I’m the type of person that likes to know why somethings happening. Different lenses seem to make no difference nor the use of a tc. Whenever I experienced it in the Z9 500pf combo the body was on the first firmware and perhaps all the updates they’ve put into it have resolved most if not all issues. The A1 just got an update a couple days ago and I look forward to seeing if anything has improved.
 
sh1209 said:
Very strange and I honestly have no clue what causes it. I can have a male indigo bunting land in the same tree as the cardinal which to my eyes seems to have less contrast and it will immediately pick up the eye. It’s easily resolved with a quick bump of the focus ring but I’m the type of person that likes to know why somethings happening. Different lenses seem to make no difference nor the use of a tc. Whenever I experienced it in the Z9 500pf combo the body was on the first firmware and perhaps all the updates they’ve put into it have resolved most if not all issues. The A1 just got an update a couple days ago and I look forward to seeing if anything has improved.
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Just spitballing, what if you printed some targets. Small red circle in a large green field, small red in blue field, and so on. Move back until the AF fails and measure the target to camera distance. This would prove that red on green fails before other colors.
 
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bleirer said:
Just spitballing, what if you printed some targets. Small red circle in a large green field, small red in blue field, and so on. Move back until the AF fails and measure the target to camera distance. This would prove that red on green fails before other colors.
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I haven't tried that but have tried it with other dark red objects. All three bodies did struggle at times to focus.
 
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