z9 Failure

[simo]

WOW

What ever happened to photography

For me I think things have gotten somewhat to technical, to customizable, to complicated, i need to concentrate before hand more on this computer to take my images than i do on actual photography, unfair to say this, yes but sorry that's the way i feel.

Only an opinion

Fair enough, but photography can be done with a film camera too.
Is our choice to do it with these new machines , or not. . I like have High tech in my hands, so I can live with it, they help me to make my artwork.
I'm just a bit annoyed to see again that we are the testers of something very very very expensive. And warranty is not forever (here in Australia especially)

 

[StarDust]

As I posted earlier in this thread, my Z9 was one of the 4 Bricks after the Velocity Invitational event 2 weeks ago – Sammy’s Cameras in San Francisco has received the camera back from Nikon and is shipping it to me. Sammy’s sent me a summary of the repair as stated by Nikon – Reviewing the list below it looks like a lot of the internal components were replaced – when reading the list below keep in mind, I had the camera for 10 days prior to its catastrophic failure

Moderate Repair Service

RPL Image CTL PCB
CKD Bayonet Mount
CKD Auto Focus Operation
CKD View-Finder
CKD VR System
CKD Flash Operation
General Check & Clean

Honestly, I am not sure what most of the components listed above are, but … I’m hoping that Nikon didn’t take a “shotgun approach and replaced everything, but actually diagnosed the problem and repaired/replaced it accordingly.

I’m going to give Nikon the benefit of the doubt, but after such a massive failure my confidence has taken a hit

All what this means is that they replaced the mother board .

The remaining lines are SOP.

All the Z9s that failed during updating the FW and I came across in dpreview forum have exactly the same report (copy/paste kind of report).

Just like I expected, nothing about the root cause of the failure of 4 z9s within proximity.


We will continue to live this mysterious and credible thing

 

[Parfumeur]

FWIW, I had similar issues under v2.11. Th eZ9 would freeze and could only be restarted by a reboot (removing the battery and reinserting). I think my issue was a bad card. We do swap / share cards and some cards have been in Sony or Canon, prior to formating in the Nikon. I think Nikon tried to solve that issue with the full format option (whatever that is) in v 3.00. I do a lot of culling in camera and chimping during breaks, so that also taxes the card (I use ProGrade Cobalt, the shared cards are Sandisk Extreme PROs) . Shooting at 20fps sport events. When it froze I was culling, and the screen appeared to have what old TV had when the vertical oscillator would go on the fritz. Other times it froze after 1-2 second of shooting ( I forget in the heat of the moment, but I think they were also Extreme PRO's. Shot over the week-end two shows with v3.0, and all went well, but no shared cards this time, just the ProGrades 325GB Cobalts (overkill for me!, as I shoot only stills).

 

[John Navitsky]

hard to say, but it seems financially imprudent to replace parts that don’t need replacing

 

[Parfumeur]

Today it is cheaper to just replace the whole PCB than diagnose. Maybe PCB's are reconditioned later. Maybe the recon is better, once burnt in, discrete devices will last. Failure usually occurs at the start of PCB life. This is why you burn in discrete devices. These recond then maybe get used in repairs.... as they are truly tested. Lots of 'maybes' <g>

 

[O]

“Brick” as Bill and I used the word described a camera that progressively lost its ability to utilize its commands and features. By the time the weekend was over both cameras were totally dead, black, absolutely no response to any user input. In effect a “Brick”. Bill’s camera was less than ten days old and my z9 was purchased in late August. For anyone interested you can return to earlier entries in this post and go over our inputs for our history. Dennis Gray

I don't know why anyone would even question you as the operator or disbelieve the issue could happen at the cause of the camera, even if the camera was in the hands of a totally illiterate non photographer and clueless the camera should NOT do what it did, to me it sounds just like when my computer has a update and sometimes it turns the computer into an unfriendly disjointed dysfunctional monster, so down to the shop i go, we find the last up date remove it and revert back to the previous program, no such luck it seems with the Z9 when it has an issue, what scares me is that its happened to a newbie and the effects are cumulative and diminishing.

I think less is more and with all the updates who knows if its that.

Bottom line the more noise the quicker we may see a solution, its very sad, we the customer or in fact even Nikon don't deserve this.

Sometimes profiting, to much cost cutting, underdevelopment can bring unwanted consequences all round.

I can understand issues do happen, but it should not be with the Z9, D6, level, not fundamental issues like this.

Your camera at this level should be as reliable as high quality para shoot.

I know Nikon will make good unless things have changed now their rich again.

Only an opinion

 

[O]

Today it is cheaper to just replace the whole PCB than diagnose. Maybe PCB's are reconditioned later. Maybe the recon is better, once burnt in, discrete devices will last. Failure usually occurs at the start of PCB life. This is why you burn in discrete devices. These recond then maybe get used in repairs.... as they are truly tested. Lots of 'maybes' <g>

Absolutely, i found this with my top of the range German washing machine company, one or two small components were known to be suspect and an issue on the mother board as they had used an alternate cheaper chip making company in desperation to get around the then supply issue of their traditional supplier, they also had changed their control panel and touch pad parts that also brought random failure issues into the stream less so with the mother board.

They said Its quicker and cheaper to simply R and R the board a simple slot in and out and get things going, they bin the suspect board, its cheaper to make a replacement than fix one that may have something missed.
I do believe in other more complicated expensive situations switching out and then refurbishing is not un common, but hey in the case of the Z9 i don't want your 500,000 shot refurbished mother board in my Z9 ...........!!!
Electronics does ware out.

Only an opinion

 

[O]

Fair enough, but photography can be done with a film camera too.
Is our choice to do it with these new machines , or not. . I like have High tech in my hands, so I can live with it, they help me to make my artwork.
I'm just a bit annoyed to see again that we are the testers of something very very very expensive. And warranty is not forever (here in Australia especially)

Yes and Photography is going to be done from Video, why because the internet platforms say so..............8 out of 10 people want to watch a video clip rather than read or look at stills.

 

[tickle_my_nikon]

I had the camera for 10 days prior to its catastrophic failure

Moderate Repair Service

RPL Image CTL PCB
CKD Bayonet Mount
CKD Auto Focus Operation
CKD View-Finder
CKD VR System
CKD Flash Operation
General Check & Clean

This confirms what I've been reading about with the Z9 in general, although I never experienced it before I sold mine.

It's safe to assume that when people are experiencing a complete lockup with the camera that the Image Control PCB responsible for autofocus is internally crashed. Could be from overheating, bad software, memory issues... we don't ... and won't ... know.

This would include most situations where the camera tells you it needs to be powered off and turned back on.

Repeated crashes apparently fries the board. Could indicate severe thermal issue. The internal software would crash repeatedly if it's buggy, but it wouldn't brick the camera.

Sounds like a serious defect to me. I haven't seen people complaining about the Z7ii this way.

 

[O]

Agree we will probably really never know the real truth, and does that even matter.
I feel sorry for Nikon but gee whiz more so for the customers that have to deal with this.

Nikon must know what the issue is and how to fix it, the question is will there be a recall for certain batches ??

I think it will be fixed and dealt with and soon forgotten it ever happened.

 

[O]

All what this means is that they replaced the mother board .

The remaining lines are SOP.

All the Z9s that failed during updating the FW and I came across in dpreview forum have exactly the same report (copy/paste kind of report).

Just like I expected, nothing about the root cause of the failure of 4 z9s within proximity.


We will continue to live this mysterious and credible thing

SOME FEEDBACK

At the camera club last night..........i spoke with some friends who have the Z9
No one has a real issue however some said....

During the update process the camera may while processing appear momentarily to be switched off as the screen goes black, the owner may feel the camera is finished, hence they turn of the camera not realizing it was still deeply processing, in that case it may cause issues of corruption or even cause some damage to the mother board, a bit like Windows update saying don't switch of your computer or loose power during the up date as it could damage your computer, i think we have all seen that warning.

Other issues have been largely related to cards, the Z9 is sensitive to certain brands and types of cards that can effect stability.

In several cases the Angel Bird card was an issue causing strange things to happen with settings or blackouts ??? this was also an issue with some other brand and type of cards.

Certain situations have occurred with lens communication........but little information is at hand.

Equally there are many Z9 owners with no issues and are very happy, i feel it appears the current issue is spasmodic and not wide spread.

Wright or wrong its only a feed back........

Only an opinion

 

[John Navitsky]

Other issues have been largely related to cards, the Z9 is sensitive to certain brands and types of cards that can effect stability.

In several cases the Angel Bird card was an issue causing strange things to happen with settings or blackouts ??? this was also an issue with some other brand and type of cards.

i think this is more about the cards than the z9.

i was skeptical of the angel bird when it first came out. basically the company put some of these in the hands of some folks on social media which immediately got a lot of people to get them.

i'm immediately suspicious of this kind of "influencer" approach because imo it's misleading. they're making it look like this is carefully selected product by a knowledgeable person when in reality, it's just advertisement.

and... immediately reports of problems came in. the folk(s) that were pushing them were "oh, the company is great, they found the problem and replaced the card" and "they were able to fix this with a (cfe card) fw fix".

meh. these things don't say "great company" to me, quite the opposite.

buyer beware.

fwiw, it does seem like angelbird got most of those issues ironed out, but i'm unenthusiastic about them due to all that

 

[StarDust]

SOME FEEDBACK

At the camera club last night..........i spoke with some friends who have the Z9
No one has a real issue however some said....

During the update process the camera may while processing appear momentarily to be switched off as the screen goes black, the owner may feel the camera is finished, hence they turn of the camera not realizing it was still deeply processing, in that case it may cause issues of corruption or even cause some damage to the mother board, a bit like Windows update saying don't switch of your computer or loose power during the up date as it could damage your computer, i think we have all seen that warning.

Other issues have been largely related to cards, the Z9 is sensitive to certain brands and types of cards that can effect stability.

In several cases the Angel Bird card was an issue causing strange things to happen with settings or blackouts ??? this was also an issue with some other brand and type of cards.

Certain situations have occurred with lens communication........but little information is at hand.

Equally there are many Z9 owners with no issues and are very happy.

Wright or wrong its only a feed back........

Only an opinion

I am talking about the 4 z9s . The topic of this thread. We need some kind of a formal report explaining what happened.

you are derailing the thread

 

[PeterKelly]

I am talking about the 4 z9s . The topic of this thread. We need some kind of a formal report explaining what happened.

you are derailing the thread

Formal report from Nikon?
I really don’t think we will ever see that. Unless it’s truly a systemic problem (which doesn’t seem to be the case - so far) Nikon will replace the motherboards on affected cameras and the most we will get is “ defective motherboard - replaced “

 

[StarDust]

Formal report from Nikon?
I really don’t think we will ever see that. Unless it’s truly a systemic problem (which doesn’t seem to be the case - so far) Nikon will replace the motherboards on affected cameras and the most we will get is “ defective motherboard - replaced “

I agree but then we will never know how 4 Z9s fail within proximity in space and time.

 

[Winston Churchill (Sir)]

Sjit happens - no product is fail proof unfortunately.
But if I have a camera fail on me in 10 days I would insist on a replacement - and not a repair.
Apple did that for me as I said I wont have a month old Laptop with replaced parts. Not at the price it costs these days

 

[O]

All what this means is that they replaced the mother board .

The remaining lines are SOP.

All the Z9s that failed during updating the FW and I came across in dpreview forum have exactly the same report (copy/paste kind of report).

Just like I expected, nothing about the root cause of the failure of 4 z9s within proximity.


We will continue to live this mysterious and credible thing

I think its the case at least prudent that Nikon will be very guarded or careful in saying anything prematurely or formally until they are confident in

what is the exact issue and particularly the extent
what is clearly the actual cause
what serial numbers or batches may be effected or potentially vulnerable
what are the consequences for the customer and Nikon's liability
what is the timeline to launch damage control procedures if at all needed
what if a part supplier component is the cause, therefor what is the solution, timeline and where does the liability start and finish
what is the course of action immediately for dead or faulty units arriving, a) R and R the mother board appears the single most effective broad brush solution known to date.
what is a reasonable time line to research serial numbers of units effected, all this is critical before making any announcement as social media and the internet is very very cruel.
what is the safest language used to describe the position (issue and solution)
Announcing the cause needs to be very carefully done and should go hand in hand with a solution.

I feel knowing the full extent of the issue is paramount.........this will take time, i suspect its known what the cause is but its not appropriate to announce things officially till a clear understanding has been established.

Only an opinion

 

[O]

Formal report from Nikon?
I really don’t think we will ever see that. Unless it’s truly a systemic problem (which doesn’t seem to be the case - so far) Nikon will replace the motherboards on affected cameras and the most we will get is “ defective motherboard - replaced “

Spot on, nice short summary, wish i could do that LOL

 

[agrumpyoldsod]

As I posted earlier in this thread, my Z9 was one of the 4 Bricks after the Velocity Invitational event 2 weeks ago – Sammy’s Cameras in San Francisco has received the camera back from Nikon and is shipping it to me. Sammy’s sent me a summary of the repair as stated by Nikon – Reviewing the list below it looks like a lot of the internal components were replaced – when reading the list below keep in mind, I had the camera for 10 days prior to its catastrophic failure

Moderate Repair Service

RPL Image CTL PCB
CKD Bayonet Mount
CKD Auto Focus Operation
CKD View-Finder
CKD VR System
CKD Flash Operation
General Check & Clean

Honestly, I am not sure what most of the components listed above are, but … I’m hoping that Nikon didn’t take a “shotgun approach and replaced everything, but actually diagnosed the problem and repaired/replaced it accordingly.

I’m going to give Nikon the benefit of the doubt, but after such a massive failure my confidence has taken a hit

Bill -- thanks for the information -- it sounds like you suffered a hardware failure and I hope that your camera works as it should again.
What was/is surprising that 4 cameras in the same party but from different sources all suffered failures at the same time.
I assume each of your cameras were sourced via Nikon USA and this would imply there could be a batch with quality issues.
NO doubt Nikon USA is investigating. If not they should.

Like others neither my pair of Z9 nor the upwards of a dozen owned/used by the folk I shoot with have suffered any technical issues and no issues since updating to firmware v3.0 and we have all shot many hundreds of thousands images.

Many of the so called bugs claimed on "most frequently" DP Review -- turn out to be either user issues or local technical issues (ie unique to that person's gear) -- most frequently folk have "messed" with the camera while the firmware is installing and/or the terminals on lenses/TCs/body needed cleaning.

In every case the guidance is clear - save your settings Before Updating the Firmware, install the firmware and leave the camera alone for a god 15 minutes - don't touch it, move it AND do not turn the camera on or off during the process, then Load your saved settings. Once done - you may wish to look at the changes/new menu settings and there are only a few.

Users should go into the G Custom Settings menus reconfirm their selection of roles they have programmed to each button -- in one case a shooter had allocated FX/DX switching to his Lens fn 2 button and this did not work "as previously" when he inserted a ZTC14 -- well I tested it with 4 lenses on 2 bodies and both the ZTC14 and ZTC20 and it worked perfectly as designed.

The seconded claimed bug relates to AF and those that use the "hybrid" hand off from Auto-Area AF (without Subject Tracking) to 3D-tracking (which of course does not have subject/eye tracking by default). YES the behaviour seems to have changed (a tiny bit) and Yes it is still crazy to use Auto-Area AF without Subject Tracking enabled. That said some do and don't like the "new behaviour" -- well adapt. Hudson Henry has posted one vid and is preparing a series of more detailed vids on how he is adapting his hybrid shooting approach to shoot with v3.0.
My guidance is to read Thom Hogan's z9 book, and both of Steve Perry's books (one on the Z9 and the other on how Nikon Mirrorless AF works) and both explain precisely how each AF mode works in detail -- my conclusion is Fn 1 = single spot with AF-on. Fn2 = dynamic-medium with AF-on, Shutter = Area-C2 (or other set-up specific selection) with AF-on and The AF-on button - 3D-tracking with AF-ON. The hand off from half pressed shutter to 3D should only be used when your selected subject is under the focus point. Using Single Point or Dynamic Area options do not immediately hand off to 3D - but I have and can (just release the Fn button immediately prior to pressing the AF-ON button.
Some folk like Hudson seem to use a Lens button to trigger AF-ON and remove AF-ON from the shutter button -- based on his comments I expect that he still programs the rear AF-ON button to initiate 3D-tracking with AF-on.
Like most who make a living or spent lots of their time shooting wildlife -- we welcome the improved low light AF, the improvements for video shooter and the other changes v3.0 has provided. BUT -- Nikon still has a way to go to deliver all the other improvements we have requested.

 

[O]

Bill -- thanks for the information -- it sounds like you suffered a hardware failure and I hope that your camera works as it should again.
What was/is surprising that 4 cameras in the same party but from different sources all suffered failures at the same time.
I assume each of your cameras were sourced via Nikon USA and this would imply there could be a batch with quality issues.
NO doubt Nikon USA is investigating. If not they should.

Like others neither my pair of Z9 nor the upwards of a dozen owned/used by the folk I shoot with have suffered any technical issues and no issues since updating to firmware v3.0 and we have all shot many hundreds of thousands images.

Many of the so called bugs claimed on "most frequently" DP Review -- turn out to be either user issues or local technical issues (ie unique to that person's gear) -- most frequently folk have "messed" with the camera while the firmware is installing and/or the terminals on lenses/TCs/body needed cleaning.

In every case the guidance is clear - save your settings Before Updating the Firmware, install the firmware and leave the camera alone for a god 15 minutes - don't touch it, move it AND do not turn the camera on or off during the process, then Load your saved settings. Once done - you may wish to look at the changes/new menu settings and there are only a few.

Users should go into the G Custom Settings menus reconfirm their selection of roles they have programmed to each button -- in one case a shooter had allocated FX/DX switching to his Lens fn 2 button and this did not work "as previously" when he inserted a ZTC14 -- well I tested it with 4 lenses on 2 bodies and both the ZTC14 and ZTC20 and it worked perfectly as designed.

The seconded claimed bug relates to AF and those that use the "hybrid" hand off from Auto-Area AF (without Subject Tracking) to 3D-tracking (which of course does not have subject/eye tracking by default). YES the behaviour seems to have changed (a tiny bit) and Yes it is still crazy to use Auto-Area AF without Subject Tracking enabled. That said some do and don't like the "new behaviour" -- well adapt. Hudson Henry has posted one vid and is preparing a series of more detailed vids on how he is adapting his hybrid shooting approach to shoot with v3.0.
My guidance is to read Thom Hogan's z9 book, and both of Steve Perry's books (one on the Z9 and the other on how Nikon Mirrorless AF works) and both explain precisely how each AF mode works in detail -- my conclusion is Fn 1 = single spot with AF-on. Fn2 = dynamic-medium with AF-on, Shutter = Area-C2 (or other set-up specific selection) with AF-on and The AF-on button - 3D-tracking with AF-ON. The hand off from half pressed shutter to 3D should only be used when your selected subject is under the focus point. Using Single Point or Dynamic Area options do not immediately hand off to 3D - but I have and can (just release the Fn button immediately prior to pressing the AF-ON button.
Some folk like Hudson seem to use a Lens button to trigger AF-ON and remove AF-ON from the shutter button -- based on his comments I expect that he still programs the rear AF-ON button to initiate 3D-tracking with AF-on.
Like most who make a living or spent lots of their time shooting wildlife -- we welcome the improved low light AF, the improvements for video shooter and the other changes v3.0 has provided. BUT -- Nikon still has a way to go to deliver all the other improvements we have requested.

Strange question

Approximately how many shutter actuation's can you reasonably expect from a Z9.
I have read in this forum that 500,000 actuation has been already achieved to date......which Has me puzzled, alos what are they doing to reach that in less than 12 months.

 

[agdoherty]

Strange question

Approximately how many shutter actuation's can you reasonably expect from a Z9.
I have read in this forum that 500,000 actuation has been already achieved to date......which Has me puzzled, alos what are they doing to reach that in less than 12 months.

There is no shutter, so life of the sensor basically is the limit. Or another physical failure of some kind.

20fps adds up fast if you aren’t careful, and when folks do something full time it adds up! I think that’s all there is to it. I think i shot 10k images my first week with the Z9 just figuring it out and trying all the features without even having a specific project. (Much more efficient use of data now of course)

If you ‘cheat’ and count frames recorded to the card, video is ~100k per hour at 30fps. I’m in the range of 10 million+ frames across 2 cameras by this point of the year in that case

 

[O]

There is no shutter, so life of the sensor basically is the limit. Or another physical failure of some kind.

20fps adds up fast if you aren’t careful, and when folks do something full time it adds up! I think that’s all there is to it. I think i shot 10k images my first week with the Z9 just figuring it out and trying all the features without even having a specific project. (Much more efficient use of data now of course)

If you ‘cheat’ and count frames recorded to the card, video is ~100k per hour at 30fps. I’m in the range of 10 million+ frames across 2 cameras by this point of the year in that case

Thank you for your reply.
Getting 500,000 actuation's in less than 12 months got my attention, as to whats that about and if they had a DSLR would they need a new shutter each 10 months say ?

As a friend said, it makes the Z9 or mirror a less camera a more cost effective camera if you intend keeping it for a long while, as when you get higher shutter counts on a DSLR it effects the resale quite a bit as well as becomes an expense.

I saw a small video on shooting a couple of birds standing and interacting on the shore line, they were just bobbing around with each other, the focusing points tracking them just kept the cross hairs fully on them, with the shutter going endlessly...it was a link from this feed some where ?, doesn't matter, the impression i got was how many frames and files were taken and then even why, it was bursts almost like a short video..........hence as you say, i to wondered if something may have to ware out, i suspect it would eventually be the sensor as its subjected to bursts of heat and then cools etc ?

Never the less mirror less seems to have some people doing a hell of a lot of spraying and shooting ? i wonder if it changes the way we do or did things.
Its clear it allows us to capture some incremental moments not previously caught before.


Only an opinion

 

[Yellow-1900]

For all Angelbird card user there is a new FW (AVX2.14) available together with Z9 3.0 update for the released cards to

• Improved performance and stability

may be another possible reason for frozen Z9. There was a general statement to upgrade to the latest FW first to me.

Update instruction and tool is available via the Angelbird support page (not a big deal for me to upgrade)

 

[MartyD]

For all Angelbird card user there is a new FW (AVX2.14) available together with Z9 3.0 update for the released cards to

• Improved performance and stability

may be another possible reason for frozen Z9. There was a general statement to upgrade to the latest FW first to me.

Update instruction and tool is available via the Angelbird support page (not a big deal for me to upgrade)

I think AVX2.14 has been out for at least a few months. What I don't like about Angelbird is that there are no dates on any of the firmware releases.

 

[EricBowles]

Thank you Eric, for further insight.
I was also of the opinion but could be wrong, that at some time the battery internals are made in Japan then shipped and finsihed in China then shipped to where ever.

I'm not sure where the battery components are made, but I thought almost all battery cells were made in China. Nikon's batteries are made by Samsung through their acquisition of Sony Battery Manufacturing Company a few years ago. I had a spec sheet from Nikon showing the EN-EL15 being made by Sony Battery.