z9 Failure

[Viathelens]

I've been following this thread as a Z9 owner. As others have said, we probably will never know what really happened. However, simple logic seems to say that it was not the camera, the cards, or the batteries but a failure of the software for an unknown reason. I've had this happen to me in the past, although not permanently. A friend and I were at the beach in Oregon, both using Nikons but different models and shooting near each other. All of a sudden my camera went dead. I took out the battery, replaced it, and turned the camera on and it was still dead. About that time my friend started walking toward me and said, as she neared, "can I use your second camera, my camera is dead." I told her my camera was also dead. None of the other photographers in the group were near our location and did not seem to be having any problem. We waited several minutes and then took the batteries out and put them back in and both cameras started up fine without any more issues. Obviously something in the air around or above us affected the cameras temporarily. I got my Z9 in March and have used it without any issues to shoot several times, including 19 days in Africa. What we are now using is a computer that happens to take photographs and it is susceptible to outside influences around us.

 

[pnbarne]

Random thought: A friend from many years ago was a US Navy radar technician. When they were in port in Virginia they would turn their microwave radar toward the traffic cops that haunted the perimeter of the base looking to nab sailors. It pretty much fried police radar of the day. Spurious emissions can come from all sorts of electronic devices but radar is often intermittent as it sweeps and is mostly line of sight which might explain only some cameras being affected.

 

[DavidT]

I am curious but didn't notice what Nikon did as a repair to the camera. Also, did the firmware 3 fix the issue?

 

[O]

I'm not sure where the battery components are made, but I thought almost all battery cells were made in China. Nikon's batteries are made by Samsung through their acquisition of Sony Battery Manufacturing Company a few years ago. I had a spec sheet from Nikon showing the EN-EL15 being made by Sony Battery.

Eric, I gladly bow to your knowledge and pearls of wisdom, but here, if it helps add light, this is where i got it from, plus i was told from a credible source.

The gist of what i was given to believe was at the time, that the "cells were made in Japan then shipped to China to be finished"

D850 Battery EN-EL15a 1900mAh 14Wh has stamped on it as does the EN-EL15 Cell made in japan then further processed in China, Nikon Corp Japan.

EN-EL18 a battery as well as a selection of other batteries from memory are stamped Cell made in japan then further processed in China, Nikon Corp Japan.

The Z9 battery EN-EL 18d is stamped made in Japan on it.

The EN-EL 14a has simply made in Japan on it.

I don't know if its still the current status anymore or Made in Japan is just a change in language for reasons being.......... financial, tax, legal, foreign trade eligibility, contractual, cost, liability, political grounds, environmental emissions credits, quality who knows ?

The world has been changing in its global trade, to day its getting harder to really know where or who makes things half the time despite branding or the labeling, things are always changing LOL.

Only an opinion

 

[O]

I've been following this thread as a Z9 owner. As others have said, we probably will never know what really happened. However, simple logic seems to say that it was not the camera, the cards, or the batteries but a failure of the software for an unknown reason. I've had this happen to me in the past, although not permanently. A friend and I were at the beach in Oregon, both using Nikons but different models and shooting near each other. All of a sudden my camera went dead. I took out the battery, replaced it, and turned the camera on and it was still dead. About that time my friend started walking toward me and said, as she neared, "can I use your second camera, my camera is dead." I told her my camera was also dead. None of the other photographers in the group were near our location and did not seem to be having any problem. We waited several minutes and then took the batteries out and put them back in and both cameras started up fine without any more issues. Obviously something in the air around or above us affected the cameras temporarily. I got my Z9 in March and have used it without any issues to shoot several times, including 19 days in Africa. What we are now using is a computer that happens to take photographs and it is susceptible to outside influences around us.

Its interesting, having an open mind, who knows these days what it could be, its very real in densely populated areas that i have experienced.
Mobile phones are a clear example.

At a guess i also feel the issue with the Z9 being spasmodic is more software related that crashes the system and possibly causing damage, we see the warning on our computers do do not shut down or delete XXX as you may damage your computer, its like a missing link in the chain that renders the chain useless.

Absolutely we are using more sophisticated computers now to do photography, great if you can handle it, its also something that is the cause for a decline in global camera sales and the number of photographers as we knew it.

I for one find the new generation of gear not as enjoyable as i am not a Geek LOL, but that's me, and i hear it so often from people i know.
Others relish and love it and hats of to you, enjoy it.

I love to sail my yacht, adjust my sails, not get on board use my I phone and have siree take command through auto pilot and do all necessary where i just sit there and go for a ride.

Only an opinion

 

[O]

Formal report from Nikon?
I really don’t think we will ever see that. Unless it’s truly a systemic problem (which doesn’t seem to be the case - so far) Nikon will replace the motherboards on affected cameras and the most we will get is “ defective motherboard - replaced “

Any Company to day would be very wise in saying very little and very carefully because of the Internet, social media lash back and fake news spreading like wild fire.

Is the software when corrupted damaging the mother board or is it a faulty component on the mother board failing and corrupting the software, as you say we may never know.
Employees are guarded and will never say a word as it will be their job at risk.

If replacing the mother board fixes the issue without issues reoccurring then that's very telling.

Only an opinion

 

[Whiskeyman]

hard to say, but it seems financially imprudent to replace parts that don’t need replacing

Today it is cheaper to just replace the whole PCB than diagnose. Maybe PCB's are reconditioned later. Maybe the recon is better, once burnt in, discrete devices will last. Failure usually occurs at the start of PCB life. This is why you burn in discrete devices. These recond then maybe get used in repairs.... as they are truly tested. Lots of 'maybes' <g>

Possibly, but doing so in this case gets the camera back to the user quickly, and allows all of the replaced components to be shipped back to Mother Nikon Engineering to be very thoroughly inspected and tested. I'm not saying that this is waht happened, but in some conditions, it's what I'd do. In other conditions, I'd ask the consumer if they'd accept a brand new camera in exchange for the entire problem camera to accomplish an even more thorough inquiry and test of the camera and components.

 

[Whiskeyman]

Random thought: A friend from many years ago was a US Navy radar technician. When they were in port in Virginia they would turn their microwave radar toward the traffic cops that haunted the perimeter of the base looking to nab sailors. It pretty much fried police radar of the day. Spurious emissions can come from all sorts of electronic devices but radar is often intermittent as it sweeps and is mostly line of sight which might explain only some cameras being affected.

Back when I flew for a living, a few pilots I knew would turn a certain onboard system on for a moment (interrupting the TV channel transmissions in the area) so that their families would know to expect the pilot to arrive home a certain amount of time later. Those systems often produce enough power to cause electronic systems to have operational problems if operated in close proximity.

BTW, we were told to stop, but some kept on until our commander told everyone that all they were doing was announcing when the mailman needed to be gone from the house.

 

[agrumpybirdphotographer]

View attachment 48645
Long time reader/follower, first time posting...

I experienced a total freeze up yesterday while shooting BIFs at a popular South Florida wetland. I updated the Z9 firmware to 3.0 the day after it was released with no issues. Shot many 20 fps short bursts of BIFs throughout the morning totaling just over 600 images. Spotted a Great Blue Heron wading through the water with a nice reflection and fired off a brief burst.

The camera completely froze and the attached image was displayed in both the viewfinder and the rear LCD panel. Notice how the image is sliced vertically on the left third of the image.

I was unable to shut down the camera normally so I resorted to pulling the battery and reinserted it after a few moments. The camera seemed to recover and I was able to shoot a few more BIF sequences before calling it a morning. The images taken after the battery was reinserted appear to be fine as do all other images taken prior to the freeze up.

This issue appears to be happening to quite a few Z9's as is evidenced not only throughout this thread, but also in this facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/nikonz9

Here are the specifics as to what was configured with my Z9 at the time of the freeze-up (note that all items were purchased directly from B&H):
• Nikon Z9 (received in late January 2022)
• Nikon En-EL 18D Rechargeable LI-ION Battery (calibrated and fully charged)
• ProGrade Digital 325 GB CFexpress 2.0 Type B Cobolt Memory Cards (freshly formatted prior to yesterday's shoot)
• Nikon FTZ II, Nikon TC-17E-II, Nikkor 400mm f/2.8 E FL ED VR lens

Exactly the same thing happened to me this morning. Taking some BIF shots camera locked uo. Image in viewfinder seemed to be a cross (horizontally) between the image being taken and live view. Camera completely unresponsive. On turning the camera “off” the LCD was still on so only option was to pop and refit the battery after a couple of seconds which sorted it. No images were lost but the last one saved was as I saw in the EV at the time of lock up. I have no idea if it was the FW 3.0 update or not as I have only had it for a few weeks and went from v2 to 3 pretty much straightaway, so have nothing to compare against.

Seems to b happening to many people so hopefully Nikon will get a hold on the issue and correct it.

For completeness I was using:

Z9 c/w 500mm pf, FTZIi, EnEL18d and Prograde 165Gb Black CFx.

 

[agrumpyoldsod]

@Dennis Gray -- have all the issues with the Nikon Z9 the members of your group/party encountered been resolved and are all now clearly reportable as "technology" issues OR ...?

 

[frdjohns]

Back when I flew for a living, a few pilots I knew would turn a certain onboard system on for a moment (interrupting the TV channel transmissions in the area) so that their families would know to expect the pilot to arrive home a certain amount of time later. Those systems often produce enough power to cause electronic systems to have operational problems if operated in close proximity.

BTW, we were told to stop, but some kept on until our commander told everyone that all they were doing was announcing when the mailman needed to be gone from the house.

Now that is funny - early warning for Jodi.

 

[7News]

Exactly the same thing happened to me this morning. Taking some BIF shots camera locked uo. Image in viewfinder seemed to be a cross (horizontally) between the image being taken and live view. Camera completely unresponsive. On turning the camera “off” the LCD was still on so only option was to pop and refit the battery after a couple of seconds which sorted it. No images were lost but the last one saved was as I saw in the EV at the time of lock up. I have no idea if it was the FW 3.0 update or not as I have only had it for a few weeks and went from v2 to 3 pretty much straightaway, so have nothing to compare against.

Seems to b happening to many people so hopefully Nikon will get a hold on the issue and correct it.

For completeness I was using:

Z9 c/w 500mm pf, FTZIi, EnEL18d and Prograde 165Gb Black CFx.

UPDATE: I have since done a factory reset and then copied my previous settings into the Z9 and the issue has not been repeated. I've shot about 2000 BIF images since the lock-up several weeks ago with no issues. Some have thought my issue to be the firmware update or possible issues with the FTZII, or the cards, or the new "Full Format" option for formatting the cards, which by the way I actually did immediately following the firmware update. I've consistently used only the "quick format" option since the lock-up and have had no issues to date, but that's not to say for certain that it actually had anything to do with the lock-up. In summation, I did a factory reset, copied my original settings back into the Z9, and have only used the "quick format" option in formatting cards. Just an observation, not a foregone conclusion...

 

[agrumpybirdphotographer]

UPDATE: I have since done a factory reset and then copied my previous settings into the Z9 and the issue has not been repeated. I've shot about 2000 BIF images since the lock-up several weeks ago with no issues. Some have thought my issue to be the firmware update or possible issues with the FTZII, or the cards, or the new "Full Format" option for formatting the cards, which by the way I actually did immediately following the firmware update. I've consistently used only the "quick format" option since the lock-up and have had no issues to date, but that's not to say for certain that it actually had anything to do with the lock-up. In summation, I did a factory reset, copied my original settings back into the Z9, and have only used the "quick format" option in formatting cards. Just an observation, not a foregone conclusion...

Thanks for this, interestingly I too have been using the “Full Format” option on the ProGrade card so its an interesting similarity. From now on I’ll use the quick format only and see how it goes, if any further issues then I’ll do a factory reset like you and repeat. It did seem like a lock up while writing to the card TBH. Thanks again for your reply describing your experience thats very useful .

 

[Chris K]

Wouldn't it be a head-shaker if this issue could be caused by the new formatting feature writing a bad filesystem to the card?

Even if it's not the cause of the issue, I suggest ignoring the "full format" feature. A quick format wipes out the file allocation tables on the card, but doesn't touch the storage area. A full format also writes to every block on the SSD. There is no advantage to this full format; you aren't getting a "cleaner" card, you're not defragmenting anything, and you can't even guarantee you're wiping the storage so the images are irrecoverable. (Best practices for solid state disks is to NOT rely even on multi-pass wipes to sanitize storage due to how these devices handle lazy write operations. At work, we smash storage as the only verifiable means to guarantee destruction.)

What you ARE doing with a full format is prematurely wearing out your CFE card, as all SSDs have a limited number of write operations. I'm sure nobody is going to kill their card with a few full-disk formats, but it's not helping, and it does cause a bit of harm.

Quick format all the way!

 

[Steve]

Wouldn't it be a head-shaker if this issue could be caused by the new formatting feature writing a bad filesystem to the card?

Even if it's not the cause of the issue, I suggest ignoring the "full format" feature. A quick format wipes out the file allocation tables on the card, but doesn't touch the storage area. A full format also writes to every block on the SSD. There is no advantage to this full format; you aren't getting a "cleaner" card, you're not defragmenting anything, and you can't even guarantee you're wiping the storage so the images are irrecoverable. (Best practices for solid state disks is to NOT rely even on multi-pass wipes to sanitize storage due to how these devices handle lazy write operations. At work, we smash storage as the only verifiable means to guarantee destruction.)

What you ARE doing with a full format is prematurely wearing out your CFE card, as all SSDs have a limited number of write operations. I'm sure nobody is going to kill their card with a few full-disk formats, but it's not helping, and it does cause a bit of harm.

Quick format all the way!

In the past, I've had card fail. One of the "hints" that I've had happen is I'll get an error during format (likely due to a bad controller or something). I do wonder if there's an advantage to a full format from the prospective of an early warning system. Since a full format goes over the entire storage area, if there's a problem I would think it would more readily detect it and cause an error than the standard quick format. What do you think?

 

[John Navitsky]

In the past, I've had card fail. One of the "hints" that I've had happen is I'll get an error during format (likely due to a bad controller or something). I do wonder if there's an advantage to a full format from the prospective of an early warning system. Since a full format goes over the entire storage area, if there's a problem I would think it would more readily detect it and cause an error than the standard quick format. What do you think?

yes, this.

i don't think you need to do a full format all the time, but i would ABSOLUTELY do it when i press a card into service on a camera and perhaps periodically.

you're much better off finding a problem up front, then in the middle of shooting

 

[John Navitsky]

What you ARE doing with a full format is prematurely wearing out your CFE card, as all SSDs have a limited number of write operations.

while it is true there are a limited number of write operations, that number is crazy high compared to our actual use in cameras, or personal computers doing normal things, even if we do them "a lot". this is not something to worry about in practice imo.

the wear is more of a real problem for online computer operations where the storage is being written to nonstop 7x24

 

[Maljo]

I think I remember formatting hard drives the system recognizes bad sectors and locks them out. If this occurs with CF Express cards a full format once in awhile might preserve the card's integrity.

 

[Mark Garfinkel]

In the past, I've had card fail. One of the "hints" that I've had happen is I'll get an error during format (likely due to a bad controller or something). I do wonder if there's an advantage to a full format from the prospective of an early warning system. Since a full format goes over the entire storage area, if there's a problem I would think it would more readily detect it and cause an error than the standard quick format. What do you think?

A full format is always best as with thumb drives, most people will do a quick format for the times saving over a full format which can take up to 15/45 minutes depending of the size of the drive and the speed of the computer. Yes, thumb drives fail, and I have found on rare occasions that's when they do when you do a full format. There's a reason Nikon added the feature and glad they did.

 

[Chris K]

I think I remember formatting hard drives the system recognizes bad sectors and locks them out. If this occurs with CF Express cards a full format once in awhile might preserve the card's integrity.

That is true of some file systems. I can’t speak for every CFE card, but many SSDs self-heal without any OS (the camera in this case) interaction.

while it is true there are a limited number of write operations, that number is crazy high compared to our actual use in cameras, or personal computers doing normal things, even if we do them "a lot". this is not something to worry about in practice imo.

the wear is more of a real problem for online computer operations where the storage is being written to nonstop 7x24

That is true, but most SSDs these days are multi-level cells to some degree, so writing one location may in fact write to multiple locations. Writing to every addressable space can create 2-4x more write operations than it would first appear.

Again, I don’t want to spread FUD about solid-state storage failure rates, but all writing is wear, and there’s no real benefit to “zeroing” a SSD.

 

[smithdg1]

Thanks for all of the discussion and information here. My three week old z9 bricked this morning. I had the same issue where it would freeze randomly and be non-responsive each time I used it, but because it was random I couldn't figure out the cause. I was fighting the freezing all morning while shooting wildlife and came home and was able to record what was happening. Shortly after that it bricked. I was running 3.0 (updated firmware first thing after unboxing, so can't say if it was a new thing after the update), and they tried to use a different battery when I went back to my local camera store but that didn't help. So it looks like it's off to service for a new board.

 

[O]

Thanks for all of the discussion and information here. My three week old z9 bricked this morning. I had the same issue where it would freeze randomly and be non-responsive each time I used it, but because it was random I couldn't figure out the cause. I was fighting the freezing all morning while shooting wildlife and came home and was able to record what was happening. Shortly after that it bricked. I was running 3.0 (updated firmware first thing after unboxing, so can't say if it was a new thing after the update), and they tried to use a different battery when I went back to my local camera store but that didn't help. So it looks like it's off to service for a new board.

Imagine this happening on the first day of your very expensive African trip, that's not a cheap camera.

Am i right in assuming the bulk of issues have come from later or newer generation batches. Its seems to happen shortly after arrival or after a little use ??

Really sorry to hear this has happened, how disappointing, i hope this doesn't trend to the Z8.

Also once the motherboard has been replaced as the fix and the issue doesn't reoccur it points to a batch of faulty motherboards one would think, if it was upgraded software damaging the board it would be a wider spread issue.

Regardless of the circumstances Nikon in the past has always stood up and dealt with issues head on, i just don't feel comfortable if its an issue occurring outside warranty, that becomes a whole new drama but one very contestable in favor of the consumer under goods not being fit for the purpose.

I remember the oil ? on sensor issue which was a massive issue on the D600, it was an occasional issue on other previous models as well, Nikon just did the right thing even out of warranty, i hope they haven't changed.

Only an opinion

 

[ButlerKid]

@Steve - Has he gotten back to you with any updates? It would be nice if he were to follow up on this thread.....

 

[smithdg1]

Imagine this happening on the first day of your very expensive African trip, that's not a cheap camera.

Am i right in assuming the bulk of issues have come from later or newer generation batches. Its seems to happen shortly after arrival or after a little use ??

Really sorry to hear this has happened, how disappointing, i hope this doesn't trend to the Z8.

Also once the motherboard has been replaced as the fix and the issue doesn't reoccur it points to a batch of faulty motherboards one would think, if it was upgraded software damaging the board it would be a wider spread issue.

Regardless of the circumstances Nikon in the past has always stood up and dealt with issues head on, i just don't feel comfortable if its an issue occurring outside warranty, that becomes a whole new drama but one very contestable in favor of the consumer under goods not being fit for the purpose.

I remember the oil ? on sensor issue which was a massive issue on the D600, it was an occasional issue on other previous models as well, Nikon just did the right thing even out of warranty, i hope they haven't changed.

Only an opinion

Right! My original plan had been to wait for the Z8 instead of getting the 9, but I'm going to Australia next year and wasn't confident it would arrive in time. I would have gone full Karen if something like this had happened then.

 

[Steve]

@Steve - Has he gotten back to you with any updates? It would be nice if he were to follow up on this thread.....

I believe the camera is repaired and working again. It sounds like he is getting an occasional "error" message now and has to turn off the camera for it to go away.

FWIW, I just had a friend contact me and his newer Z9 is acting up a bit too. Right now, I'm trying to figure it out, but it looks like another imminent failure. Buttons not working or not doing what they are supposed to, pulling the battery brings it back so far.