z9 Failure

[O]

With a computer if there is a bad floppy disk the write operation will eventually time out. With a hard drive if a bad sector is encountered during a write operation the drive controller will map out the bad sector and write data to the good sector. With a SSD a similar process takes place as bad segments are removed from use and new ones added from the "pool".

With digital cameras my experience has been that there is no write error recovery coded in the firmware. I suspect that this is because the engineers think it is important to alway finish writing a file to the memory card before the camera is powered off. This is a safety feature but if there is a bad segment on the memory card there is not the internal logic on the card or with the camera to go to a different segment on the card.

A card only needs to have bad segment in the data area or in the FAT to have a problem. If may be less than 1% of the memory card and so the card may work for a very long time until the card writes to that particular segment. I have found similar problems with bad memory controllers in computers or bad static and dynamic Ram in devices where unless a program ran that used the bad sections, there was no problem evident. With the bad memory controllers there was a batch of more than 10,000 Toshiba laptops where the processor chip was not soldered correctly and the entire motherboard had to be replaced. Not an easy problem to diagnose as the failure depended the applications use of the Ram.

With my D500 I had two XQD cards that had problems and I had them replaced by their manufacturers. With the Z9 many people have had problems with 8k video which puts maximum demand on the memory card and only the Delkin Black and ProGrade high capacity CFexpress cards are entirely without issues.

What your saying makes a lot of sense and i hope part or all of what your saying helps understand the issue, my worry is, why isn't it fixed, why has it dragged on, how come Sony doesn't seem to have the issue, on a side note I also note from the beginning Sony sold and still sell their own cards, as is now Nikon doing.
Is it for technical assurance or profit making or both ??

Only an opinion

 

[John Navitsky]

What your saying makes a lot of sense and i hope part or all of what your saying helps understand the issue, my worry is, why isn't it fixed, why has it dragged on, how come Sony doesn't seem to have the issue, on a side note I also note from the beginning Sony sold and still sell their own cards, as is now Nikon doing.
Is it for technical assurance or profit making or both ??

Only an opinion

what issue?!

 

[JamesFarrell]

i shoot several thousand images in a setting, always 20fps lossless compressed raw. delkin black 650gb. i haven't seen any problems with any fw version that couldn't be attributed to user error. shoot primarily 70-200s and 100-400s.

personally i don't think shooting these bursts raises temperatures with a good cfe-b card. maybe if i was using one of the old lexar cards or similar, but i don't consider this "hard use".

i know this thread is full of impending doom, but i'd warn that reports on the internet tend not to be a great way to assess risk.

get good cards. follow good media handling practices. if you need a backup body have a backup body. if you need to run in backup mode, run in backup mode. save your settings. if you run into a problem, that's why you have the backup body.

and this isn't a z9 thing. those d5s and a1s are at risk too.

it's probably not time to throw our cameras into the volcano just yet.

ymmv

Thanks John for your post. Good info.

 

[BCDan]

With a computer if there is a bad floppy disk the write operation will eventually time out. With a hard drive if a bad sector is encountered during a write operation the drive controller will map out the bad sector and write data to the good sector. With a SSD a similar process takes place as bad segments are removed from use and new ones added from the "pool".

With digital cameras my experience has been that there is no write error recovery coded in the firmware. I suspect that this is because the engineers think it is important to alway finish writing a file to the memory card before the camera is powered off. This is a safety feature but if there is a bad segment on the memory card there is not the internal logic on the card or with the camera to go to a different segment on the card.

A card only needs to have bad segment in the data area or in the FAT to have a problem. If may be less than 1% of the memory card and so the card may work for a very long time until the card writes to that particular segment. I have found similar problems with bad memory controllers in computers or bad static and dynamic Ram in devices where unless a program ran that used the bad sections, there was no problem evident. With the bad memory controllers there was a batch of more than 10,000 Toshiba laptops where the processor chip was not soldered correctly and the entire motherboard had to be replaced. Not an easy problem to diagnose as the failure depended the applications use of the Ram.

With my D500 I had two XQD cards that had problems and I had them replaced by their manufacturers. With the Z9 many people have had problems with 8k video which puts maximum demand on the memory card and only the Delkin Black and ProGrade high capacity CFexpress cards are entirely without issues.

Calson, you describe a very interesting possibility.

This is way out of my field of expertise, but if I’m understanding you correctly, the issue of “a bad segment on the card” at power down would apply to most cameras, and all card types, for the past twenty years or so, wouldn’t it?

If my guess is correct, wouldn’t we likely have seen the same issue in nearly all cameras and nearly all card types, with somewhat (broadly) predictable regularity?

Thanks for posting!

Dan

 

[frdjohns]

i shoot several thousand images in a setting, always 20fps lossless compressed raw. delkin black 650gb. i haven't seen any problems with any fw version that couldn't be attributed to user error. shoot primarily 70-200s and 100-400s.

personally i don't think shooting these bursts raises temperatures with a good cfe-b card. maybe if i was using one of the old lexar cards or similar, but i don't consider this "hard use".

i know this thread is full of impending doom, but i'd warn that reports on the internet tend not to be a great way to assess risk.

get good cards. follow good media handling practices. if you need a backup body have a backup body. if you need to run in backup mode, run in backup mode. save your settings. if you run into a problem, that's why you have the backup body.

and this isn't a z9 thing. those d5s and a1s are at risk too.

it's probably not time to throw our cameras into the volcano just yet.

ymmv

Well said.

 

[John Navitsky]

Calson, you describe a very interesting possibility.

This is way out of my field of expertise, but if I’m understanding you correctly, the issue of “a bad segment on the card” at power down would apply to most cameras, and all card types, for the past twenty years or so, wouldn’t it?

If my guess is correct, wouldn’t we likely have seen the same issue in nearly all cameras and nearly all card types, with somewhat (broadly) predictable regularity?

yes cameras in general are largely susceptible to problems like this.

what's different? first, hard to say if anything is different. we have no metrics, no root cause analysis, just anecdotal reports of various issues. and i'm not saying the people reporting the issues didn't have issues. i'm saying you don't know what was actually wrong and we don't know what caused it and you don't know how prevalent the issue is, no less how that compares to similar cameras.

second, you have seen the types of problems Calson describes. i'm sure everyone has seen frantic posts from people who report everything on their card being gone. or some stuff is missing. or the images are corrupted. this is one possible manifestation of this kind of issue.

come to think about it, you've seen all sorts of reports of all sorts of problems. screens going wonky, firmware bricking their camera, whatever. you probably didn't even really think too hard about what brand, what model. people do have problems. some media related, some not.

keep in mind, volume has recently ratcheted up a notch. i've had my camera since february and i'm pushing having nearly as many images shot with the z9 as i shot over the entire life of my d500, and i got the d500 as soon as it came out.

and... those images are substantially larger.

lots of bits flying around.

me? i'll buy good media. i'll do the full format periodically. and i'll do the quick format every single time i put the media in the camera.

 

[John Woodworth]

yes cameras in general are largely susceptible to problems like this.

what's different? first, hard to say if anything is different. we have no metrics, no root cause analysis, just anecdotal reports of various issues. and i'm not saying the people reporting the issues didn't have issues. i'm saying you don't know what was actually wrong and we don't know what caused it and you don't know how prevalent the issue is, no less how that compares to similar cameras.

second, you have seen the types of problems Calson describes. i'm sure everyone has seen frantic posts from people who report everything on their card being gone. or some stuff is missing. or the images are corrupted. this is one possible manifestation of this kind of issue.

come to think about it, you've seen all sorts of reports of all sorts of problems. screens going wonky, firmware bricking their camera, whatever. you probably didn't even really think too hard about what brand, what model. people do have problems. some media related, some not.

keep in mind, volume has recently ratcheted up a notch. i've had my camera since february and i'm pushing having nearly as many images shot with the z9 as i shot over the entire life of my d500, and i got the d500 as soon as it came out.

and... those images are substantially larger.

lots of bits flying around.

me? i'll buy good media. i'll do the full format periodically. and i'll do the quick format every single time i put the media in the camera.

John, I know you shoot for clients, so are you reacting to this “issue” by carrying a spare body? Or did you always carry one?

 

[John Navitsky]

John, I know you shoot for clients, so are you reacting to this “issue” by carrying a spare body? Or did you always carry one?

personally i only bring a second body for events where i’m the official photographer and that’s only occasionally these days. i haven’t seen any reason to consider my z9 less reliable than any other nikon pro sport body.

 

[Venkatesh VT]

No idea.

There's part of me (I used to do programming a couple of decades ago) that thinks maybe they kill off one bug and introduce another. I've done it myself LOL

I hate to say the "S" word, but my a1 bodies seem to have more complex software (they can do a lot more) and I've had zero lockups with them since their first firmware update a year and a half ago. They just work and have, overall, seen more use and abuse than my Z9. Of course, it might be hardware issue they are struggling with. Plus, random lockups terribly tough to pin down. Again, I want to stress that, so far, these lockups haven't really stunted my work and have only been a minor annoyance. 99.9% of the time (or more) my Z9 is fine.

Just want to keep it in perspective. And, for my use, I don't have to worry about blowing a paid gig

Same here Steve. My A1 never had a lock up since I bought it one year ago
My Z9 bought in Jun 2022 locked up yesterday for the first time giving an error message & came back to life after I switched it off & switched on
I am keeping my fingers crossed since we are going on a 8 day birding this month end
I am postponing my FW 3 upgrade for the present

 

[smithdg1]

So an update on my brick with what I hope will be a happy ending. My camera store went to bat for me and got a new camera so I didn't have to wait for service to fix the bricked one. I had already ordered a new/better memory card when I was first trying to diagnose the problem, so I've got that now, too. Now I just need some rain to hold off long enough to have some fun at my local wildlife park and really test it out. However, I did already shoot off a couple long bursts like an evil henchman firing his machine gun in the air. Just to make sure I could. I'll be keeping a close eye on it going forward, but I'm hopeful that I'll be in good shape now.

 

[cdcnpilot]

I have owned a Z9 since June and put about 300,000 shots on it - individual not burst. No issues whatsoever until V3 went on. I shoot figure skating and last week while in Boston, I found the focus lock was not locked, but drifting when I took my thumb off AF-ON button (yes, not on shutter release). For a skater spinning, I hold the button for a couple revolutions to make sure the skater is not moving, then release and keep shooting (single shots not burst). After a couple of pics, the focus started to drift and in each photo it got worse. I never saw this before V3 and so far, not getting any response from Nikon (calling back in today).

 

[John Navitsky]

I have owned a Z9 since June and put about 300,000 shots on it - individual not burst. No issues whatsoever until V3 went on. I shoot figure skating and last week while in Boston, I found the focus lock was not locked, but drifting when I took my thumb off AF-ON button (yes, not on shutter release). For a skater spinning, I hold the button for a couple revolutions to make sure the skater is not moving, then release and keep shooting (single shots not burst). After a couple of pics, the focus started to drift and in each photo it got worse. I never saw this before V3 and so far, not getting any response from Nikon (calling back in today).

there is definitely different behavior with regard to subject detection.

 

[cdcnpilot]

there is definitely different behavior with regard to subject detection.

I am not using subject detection, it is turned off. I find for figure skating, at the higher levels, the movements are too erratic and the subject detection jumping around is far too distracting.

 

[Wes Peterson]

I have owned a Z9 since June and put about 300,000 shots on it - individual not burst. No issues whatsoever until V3 went on. I shoot figure skating and last week while in Boston, I found the focus lock was not locked, but drifting when I took my thumb off AF-ON button (yes, not on shutter release). For a skater spinning, I hold the button for a couple revolutions to make sure the skater is not moving, then release and keep shooting (single shots not burst). After a couple of pics, the focus started to drift and in each photo it got worse. I never saw this before V3 and so far, not getting any response from Nikon (calling back in today).

So you stopped focusing and expected a moving figure skater to continue to be in focus????

 

[cdcnpilot]

Absolutely. You missed a key point, they are spinning on one foot - they are not moving laterally or back to front. The distance between the camera and the skater is not changing, so why would the focus change?

Having trouble uploading a picture - new here and must be size.

Kevin

 

[John Navitsky]

I am not using subject detection, it is turned off. I find for figure skating, at the higher levels, the movements are too erratic and the subject detection jumping around is far too distracting.

interesting. this is the first report i've seen for this kind of behavior with subject detection turned off

 

[cdcnpilot]

You can only see EXIF info for this image if you are logged in.

This is an example of what I was talking about.

Kevin

 

[John Navitsky]

@cdcnpilot out of curiousity, with fw 3.0, have you *tried* it with subject detection set to human (only)? it seems like with fw 3.0, it tries to stick to subjects harder and that has a side effect of making it drift it can't identify a subject. but i would suspect it's going to stick "in the area" when it thinks there is a subject there.

 

[cdcnpilot]

@cdcnpilot out of curiousity, with fw 3.0, have you *tried* it with subject detection set to human (only)? it seems like with fw 3.0, it tries to stick to subjects harder and that has a side effect of making it drift it can't identify a subject. but i would suspect it's going to stick "in the area" when it thinks there is a subject there.

Yes - I had it set to human 'eye'. As skaters go by the boards, anyone sitting close to the boards (no glass) it jump to a spectator. Don't get me wrong, it did work probably 90% of the time.

 

[John Navitsky]

Yes - I had it set to human 'eye'. As skaters go by the boards, anyone sitting close to the boards (no glass) it jump to a spectator. Don't get me wrong, it did work probably 90% of the time.

what size focus box? optimally you'd use a smaller focus box to try to isolate your subject somewhat

 

[John Woodworth]

View attachment 49716


This is an example of what I was talking about.

Kevin

I'd be interested in knowing your focus settings and use. The ones that work. Please share.

 

[Wes Peterson]

View attachment 49716


This is an example of what I was talking about.

Kevin

Cameras tend to not focus when you dont ask them too. Where is your hand on the lens? are you by chance holding the lens around the focus ring?

 

[cdcnpilot]

I'd be interested in knowing your focus settings and use. The ones that work. Please share.

Focus settings is 5x3 box, AF-C with subject detections turned off. It works perfectly - that is not the issue. The issue is the focus is not locked when AF-ON button is released. I have used this technique for 10 years with no issues. If I keep my finger on the AF-ON button, it works perfectly.

Cameras tend to not focus when you dont ask them too. Where is your hand on the lens? are you by chance holding the lens around the focus ring?

Forgot the lens part. I have two 70-200 f/2.8 E lenses (one is for backup). The issue happens with both lenses. Both lenses are set to 'Am' and my hand is not moving the zoom and not touching the button nor the focus. Could this all be pilot error? Anything is possible, but I would doubt that based on my experience doing this.

I just need to get Nikon to respond - which they have not done so far (reported it Nov 14). I called NPS today but had to leave a message. I really want this issue to be bumped up to level 2 at least.

I know V3 came out with a Focus Shift Shooting (which is off), but it is almost like that is happening.

 

[John Navitsky]

Both lenses are set to 'Am' and my hand is not moving the zoom and not touching the button nor the focus. Could this all be pilot error? Anything is possible, but I would doubt that based on my experience doing this.

it's possible. i have noticed MF seems to engage much easier with 3.0 than before. at least i think it does, i've certainly noticed it much more. as an experiment, af on something, then just lightly touch the af ring. mine immediately shows the focus peaking highlights indicating MF has been enabled.

i've taken to be extra careful not to touch the af ring. i do sometimes push or pull zoom during a sequence, but i have focus actively engaged so that's not an issue in my case.

 

[Wes Peterson]

Focus settings is 5x3 box, AF-C with subject detections turned off. It works perfectly - that is not the issue. The issue is the focus is not locked when AF-ON button is released. I have used this technique for 10 years with no issues. If I keep my finger on the AF-ON button, it works perfectly.




Forgot the lens part. I have two 70-200 f/2.8 E lenses (one is for backup). The issue happens with both lenses. Both lenses are set to 'Am' and my hand is not moving the zoom and not touching the button nor the focus. Could this all be pilot error? Anything is possible, but I would doubt that based on my experience doing this.

I just need to get Nikon to respond - which they have not done so far (reported it Nov 14). I called NPS today but had to leave a message. I really want this issue to be bumped up to level 2 at least.

I know V3 came out with a Focus Shift Shooting (which is off), but it is almost like that is happening.

focus shift feature has been with the Z9 since firmware 1.0. Turn on focus peaking. as John mentioned if you bump the focus ring you will know it immediately if peaking is turned on.
Honestly Nikon is just going to tell you to keep AF engaged..... and they are right.