Z9 RAW files not optimally supported by Adobe

[bleirer]

Int

Interesting thread in Nikon Cafe. Assume it is ok to post. If not, please delete.

Nikon Z9 Raw Photo / NRAW Video Support | 07 July 2023

UPDATED: 07 July 2023 07 July 2023: Topaz Photo AI 1.4.0 now supports for HE* and HE compressed raw files via the intoPIX SDK. High Efficiency Raw Nikon's own lossless compressed raw file delivers a full resolution image at an average file size of 55 to 60 MB. The Nikon Z9 offers a new High...

www.nikoncafe.com

Interesting. Adobe listed as 'preliminary' support. Probably depends on the chip and OS.

 

[BillW]

Thom Hogan recommended not using HE Raw* a few days ago, stating the support is preliminary and not ideal.

I have been using HE Raw* for wildlife shooting and have found it works well for me. But I may be missing something in some cases.

Reader Questions Answered | Thom Hogan

Z System questions answered by Nikon expert Thom Hogan

www.zsystemuser.com

 

[John Navitsky]

he seems pretty thin on evidence: "Meanwhile, IntoPix, whose intellectual property underlies the High efficiency options, isn't doing anything to give converter makers useful information, at least not that I can see." 1) not sure how or if he'd be privy to said information, and 2) it's not clear there is actually any problem. this all seems very hand-wavy to me.

he does give a couple of examples about things he doesn't like, but it's not clear they have anything to do with the converter, or are just artifacts of the compression itself.

 

[John_DE]

I use HE* and have no issues at all over compressed lossless NEF with my Z9, using Adobe LR Classic. However, I process on an iMAC and a MacBook Pro which both have Intel processors.

 

[BillW]

I use HE* and have no issues at all over compressed lossless NEF with my Z9, using Adobe LR Classic. However, I process on an iMAC and a MacBook Pro which both have Intel processors.

I’ve converted HE Raw* files from my Z9 using ACR on an iMac (Intel) and a MacBookPro (Apple Silicon). Both have worked well.

 

[Roy]

Thanks - I've got used to saving in Tiff format with each new camera until Adobe photoshop catches up...

 

[bleirer]

Thanks - I've got used to saving in Tiff format with each new camera until Adobe photoshop catches up...

Aren't tiffs going to be a bigger file that regular raw? What is the benefit to saving in tiff?

 

[Ken Miracle]

"Z9 NEF files are not yet optimally supported by Adobe (Lightroom, Photoshop), especially the High Efficiency RAW." That was an original statement from Adobe that was later changed when they said they were now fully operational with both file formats. I have not experienced issues with either in LRC.

I just drag and drop my images from card to my iMac 27" desk top. The I open in Nikon NX studio software to see more meta data and wha the image looks like from my camera settings. NX Studio used to be crashy and slow with D850 files but a past update fixed that.

Z9 files have made NX Studio even after the recent update crashy and slow again. A friend who is a co owner of the camera stores that put on the photo symposium I was al all week last week ... has had the Z9 since November 2021 and suggested the following work flow. Drag and drop to desk top from card in card reader, then screen through with Photo Mechanics, then open the far fewer remaining files in Nikon NX Studio and you could do edits there if desired but he seldom does any, then he preserves what settings he had set in his camera along with the raw data by exporting the files as 16bit tifs to his desktop (a heads up they usually about twice as large as the raw file) and then importing to the tif to LRC. He then crops or does any other adjustments he wants to in LRC and frequently does a round trip at the end to Topaz Denoise or Sharpen AI plug ins as a final kiss.

I am in the middle of testing his suggested workflow.

I started with a few hours of shooting with Z9 and Z800pf on the way home from the symposium last Sunday. I did a drag and drop of well over 2,000 images to my desk top on Sunday night.

On Monday I downloaded the free trial from photo mechanics (the free trial is photo mechanics plus which I do not need but I just ignore the plus parts). I found one step confusing so called photo mechanics support in Oregon and the support person was understandable sharp and very helpful in guiding me to the application settings I need to change to fit my needs. It then rocked as a fast sort through culling option.

Then I came down with a cold Monday Night and got draggier than NX Studio

So later in the week for purposes of my testing and learning I opened the remaining few hundred images in NX Studio and it handled the fewer images much better after reviewing and learning about what camera settings etc. had worked the best for me and deleting some more images I then exported the remaining images as 16 bit TIF to my desk top into the same folder my raw files were in and imported the Tif and the raw files into LRC using my normal import process.

In between dealing with the cold and working on other projects I am still in the process of testing the work flow and have only edited about a third of the images in this test process.

So far I am finding in some cases the Tif files are ready to crop if needed and use as is where I had done my part in camera.

If I had goofed or for whatever reason the images need a bit more editing the Tif images are frequently still the best to use. And they work with the Topaz plug ins but only tested a couple that really did not really need Topaz.

However if a bit more editing is desired and I want to apply my develop presets (some of which utilize custom profiles) or I want to use LRC masking (local development tools) etc. then working on the raw files is better for me, most likely because some of my favorite home made or purchased presets/profiles are not fully compatible with the TIF files in LRC such as changing camera profiles, or using custom profiles such as color fidelity camera profiles etc..

So I will be buying photo mechanics for culling and the jury is still out on the Raw versus Tif processing in LRC but I do love the results of the Tif files when it works and I had done my part in camera up front so may continue to import both Raw and Tif into LRC for a bit and then just keep whichever one works the best for that image.

 

[Ken Miracle]

Aren't tiffs going to be a bigger file that regular raw? What is the benefit to saving in tiff?

Tif's are huge as noted in my previous comment. They have all the raw data and the in camera settings made with either the Z9 defaults or setting you changed such as those in the camera profile you used etc. pretty much anything that would be baked into a jpg..

 

[BarkingBeans Coffee]

Interesting thread in Nikon Cafe. Assume it is ok to post. If not, please delete.

Nikon Z9 Raw Photo / NRAW Video Support | 07 July 2023

UPDATED: 07 July 2023 07 July 2023: Topaz Photo AI 1.4.0 now supports for HE* and HE compressed raw files via the intoPIX SDK. High Efficiency Raw Nikon's own lossless compressed raw file delivers a full resolution image at an average file size of 55 to 60 MB. The Nikon Z9 offers a new High...

www.nikoncafe.com

This has been updated and has interesting tables now at the bottom.

 

[BarkingBeans Coffee]

So later in the week for purposes of my testing and learning I opened the remaining few hundred images in NX Studio and it handled the fewer images much better after reviewing and learning about what camera settings etc. had worked the best for me and deleting some more images I then exported the remaining images as 16 bit TIF to my desk top into the same folder my raw files were in and imported the Tif and the raw files into LRC using my normal import process.

@Ken Miracle I am curious why convert them all to TIFFs if using PM. Why not just the high ISO ones or the ones you feel will need Denoise?

If you came across something in LRC that you thought needed Denoise could you just export the tiff with your settings and then import that and continue?

 

[Ivan Rothman]

From the latest update given by Nikon Cafe, it seems that High Efficiency RAW is now supported by Adobe apps and by Apple Finder. I'll have to run a test to confirm. But not yet supported by FastRawViewer, a program I like to use. So for me, I'll probably continue to use Lossless Compressed unless I'm in a situation where I really need very prolonged bursts at 20fps or if I need to get more images on my memory card.

 

[BarkingBeans Coffee]

From the latest update given by Nikon Cafe, it seems that High Efficiency RAW is now supported by Adobe apps and by Apple Finder. I'll have to run a test to confirm. But not yet supported by FastRawViewer, a program I like to use. So for me, I'll probably continue to use Lossless Compressed unless I'm in a situation where I really need very prolonged bursts at 20fps or if I need to get more images on my memory card.

@Ivan Rothman I have had some back and forth with Walter from the NikonCafe. What he points out is that many such as Topaz rely on open source software and they would have to pay intoPix royalties. The developer of Fast Raw View has told me that the Nikon SDK is too slow so they show the embedded jpg instead. Since I would use this for culling, I may need to look at it again.

Thanks.

 

[Ken Miracle]

@Ken Miracle I am curious why convert them all to TIFFs if using PM. Why not just the high ISO ones or the ones you feel will need Denoise?

If you came across something in LRC that you thought needed Denoise could you just export the tiff with your settings and then import that and continue?

That was way back in May and I only converted those to Tiff that I had not culled out in Photo Mechanic.

A lot has changed since may including firmware updates to the Z9, more experience with the Z9 and Z800mm pf and I discovered a new and far more efficient process with a change Adobe had made to LRC and no longer use this workflow.

I still drag and drop images from my card reader to my desk top. I use Photo Mechanic 6 for initial culling.

I still open images in NX Studio to check on full meta data and focus points etc. but I do not convert to Tiff.

I then import the remaining files into my Light Room Classic (LRC) catalog on my external hard drive.

A major change is that I have my LRC presets Global set to Camera Settings rather than Adobe Default. I primarily use Camera Standard with settings adjusted in it on my Z9. If I get my settings correct in camera then all I have to do in LRC is keyword, crop image as needed and export in the size, format etc. to fit where I am using the exported jpg, or tiff.

I still occasionally use Topaz plug ins for Denoise AI with LRC if needed. I have downloaded but not installed or used the new Topaz Photo A1.

I shoot a lot of birds for ID in a wide range of lighting conditions and ISO from 64 to 2500 and rarely up to 8 to 10,000.

So far I can not tell any difference between the lossless compressed and HE*. Like @Steve I still used lossless compressed most of the time until the last few weeks. I have now switched to HE* since I prefer the smaller file storage size.

And my hardware all works well with HE*

I use Delkin Black CFexpress b and process on an Apple M1Max Studio with 27" studio display and keep my images and LRC catalog on a OWC Envoy Pro SX w/thunderbolt OWCTB3ENVPSX04 4TB and back up with carbon copy cloner to 3 other external SSD drives.

 

[bjanes]

That was way back in May and I only converted those to Tiff that I had not culled out in Photo Mechanic.



And my hardware all works well with HE*

I use Delkin Black CFexpress b and process on an Apple M1Max Studio with 27" studio display and keep my images and LRC catalog on a OWC Envoy Pro SX w/thunderbolt OWCTB3ENVPSX04 4TB and back up with carbon copy cloner to 3 other external SSD drives.

Yes, we've been told for nearly a year now that Z9 High Efficiency files are not fully supported in LR/ACR until suitable camera profiles are available. But what profiles are missing? I just took a picture with High Efficiency * and I have all the camera matching profiles as well as the lens correction profile for my lens. What profiles are missing that preclude optimal processing? I see no difference between lossless raw and high efficiency * and @Steve reports the same thing. What am I missing?

Bill

 

[Ken Miracle]

Yes, we've been told for nearly a year now that Z9 High Efficiency files are not fully supported in LR/ACR until suitable camera profiles are available. But what profiles are missing? I just took a picture with High Efficiency * and I have all the camera matching profiles as well as the lens correction profile for my lens. What profiles are missing that preclude optimal processing? I see no difference between lossless raw and high efficiency * and @Steve reports the same thing. What am I missing?

Bill

As I said nothing that I have ever encountered with Light Room Classic ... the only thing others have reported were tethering issues and that is not something I do.

 

[John Navitsky]

Yes, we've been told for nearly a year now that Z9 High Efficiency files are not fully supported in LR/ACR until suitable camera profiles are available. But what profiles are missing?

and almost all that time they’ve been wrong. people misread the blurb from adobe. for most of this time what was missing was arm64 support (tablets, probably)

 

[Wes Peterson]

and almost all that time they’ve been wrong. people misread the blurb from adobe. for most of this time what was missing was arm64 support (tablets, probably)

And people keep promoting that false narrative and blaming Adobe for their own bad settings as evidence that the Z 9 isnt fully supported in Lightroom. People on this site have "muted" me when Ive told them otherwise. They just cant stand the idea they are doing something wrong. I think many of the Z 9 "failures" could be attributed to the same hubris.

 

[Nimi]

At least one LRC feature isn't supported yet on the Z9 - tethering. There is an unreliable, clumsy workaround using NX Tether and then autoimporting into LRC, but seems Iike tethering is not a priority for Adobe. Used to be 2-3 months after body intro.

 

[Roy]

At least one LRC feature isn't supported yet on the Z9 - tethering. There is an unreliable, clumsy workaround using NX Tether and then autoimporting into LRC, but seems Iike tethering is not a priority for Adobe. Used to be 2-3 months after body intro.

2-3 months is optimistic

 

[Nimi]

2-3 months is optimistic

Used to be that or better. We're now, what, a year? There is supposedly some beef between Adobe and Nikon, and Adobe and Sony. Or maybe Adobe is abandoning photographers.

 

[DRM]

That was way back in May and I only converted those to Tiff that I had not culled out in Photo Mechanic.

A lot has changed since may including firmware updates to the Z9, more experience with the Z9 and Z800mm pf and I discovered a new and far more efficient process with a change Adobe had made to LRC and no longer use this workflow.

I still drag and drop images from my card reader to my desk top. I use Photo Mechanic 6 for initial culling.

I still open images in NX Studio to check on full meta data and focus points etc. but I do not convert to Tiff.

I then import the remaining files into my Light Room Classic (LRC) catalog on my external hard drive.

A major change is that I have my LRC presets Global set to Camera Settings rather than Adobe Default. I primarily use Camera Standard with settings adjusted in it on my Z9. If I get my settings correct in camera then all I have to do in LRC is keyword, crop image as needed and export in the size, format etc. to fit where I am using the exported jpg, or tiff.

I still occasionally use Topaz plug ins for Denoise AI with LRC if needed. I have downloaded but not installed or used the new Topaz Photo A1.

I shoot a lot of birds for ID in a wide range of lighting conditions and ISO from 64 to 2500 and rarely up to 8 to 10,000.

So far I can not tell any difference between the lossless compressed and HE*. Like @Steve I still used lossless compressed most of the time until the last few weeks. I have now switched to HE* since I prefer the smaller file storage size.

And my hardware all works well with HE*

I use Delkin Black CFexpress b and process on an Apple M1Max Studio with 27" studio display and keep my images and LRC catalog on a OWC Envoy Pro SX w/thunderbolt OWCTB3ENVPSX04 4TB and back up with carbon copy cloner to 3 other external SSD drives.

You mentioned file size. Is there any difference between the ending size of a file if a photo starts out as a lossless compressed file vs an HE* file, post processing occurs, and then the end result is saved as a JPEG? Would the saved JPEGs be the same size or does the increased file size follow the file to the end?

 

[Ken Miracle]

You mentioned file size. Is there any difference between the ending size of a file if a photo starts out as a lossless compressed file vs an HE* file, post processing occurs, and then the end result is saved as a JPEG? Would the saved JPEGs be the same size or does the increased file size follow the file to the end?

I honestly do not know. The HE* files are smaller than the regular losless compressed raw. I do not save files as jpg since I just export them as jpg for use on line, sending to printer etc. and that size is determined when I export depending on what I am exporting from LRC for. If for some reason they are exported as a Tiff file that file is larger then the original standard raw file or the HE* files.

 

[Roy]

TIFF files are larger - But I love their reliability.
I strongly dislike the lossyness of JPG files and the internet is all they are good for...

 

[Ken Miracle]

TIFF files are larger - But I love their reliability.
I strongly dislike the lossyness of JPG files and the internet is all they are good for...

Actually jpgs are what my and many other pro printing labs request. If someone was trying to edit, and re edit etc. jpgs then every time a bit more degredation comes in the lossyness you mention I would imagine. If I do use the topaz plug in then Tiff is what I send to the topaz app and get back and store.

I have a pro friend who loved to shoot in Tiff and still bemoans that he can not do that with the Z9. He uses the same pro lab I do and sent them Tiffs right out of the camera for them to print ... they asked him to send them jpgs because they did not need the tiff files and they were huge So now he exports jpgs to them and keeps tiffs on his long term storage.