Z9 v A1 Autofocus

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i share the adoration for the z9/800 combination.

What I like best about it is what i discover in post. All kinds of interesting crop possibilities emerge and I find a lot of keepers.

Lately I have been pursuing shots of herons in flight. These birds look really interesting on the wing. Shooting with 800mm the hardest part is getting the bird into the frame and keeping it there long enough. I maybe hit it ten percent of the time.

Ah but when I do hit it shooting at 20 fps there is a parade of interesting shots to choose from.

Once the camera gets to the bird eye it tends to stick there and it leaves me a lot to work with In post.

I am away from Lightroom right now but I will post some images shortly.

I think Nikon has some great birding lenses these days.
 
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ajrmd said:
What you're observing is a phenomenon with all MILC's, namely that the AF occurs directly on the sensor at the lens' aperture. This is unlike the split beam AF of a DSLR where the AF module was separate and consisted of multiple crossed arrays. The exact integration Nikon's MILC cameras phase/contrast detection is proprietary as are all of the manufacturer's systems. Canon benefits from dual pixel AF technology and it may be one of the reasons that the Canon system seems to perform better. Anyhow, back to the issue with the MILC and the 800. Say you're lens AF is racked to some distant point and you aim it at a bird some distance closer. Because the bird is so OOF it doesn't even register as a possible subject and the AF system doesn't even look for it. Bumping the AF either manually or by aiming the camera at something closer with contrast will assist the camera in recognizing that there is a subject there. It is not a problem unique to Nikon, rather all MILC's I've used suffer from this to some degree made worse by FL and narrower aperture.
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Well said. Accessible synopsis explaining the primary source of "MILC AF Blues". As many photographers often advise, this blurry-subject problem is simple to preempt by manual refocusing, or use Memory AF Recall on a function button to focus closer.

I find using my D6 and Z9 together highlights the stark contrast in the underlying design differences between the DSLR and MILC On-Sensor Autofocus.
 
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bleirer said:
I think ergonomics is what one gets used to, because the z8/z9 requiring to hold a button to control iso or exp comp (no dedicated wheel) is super awkward to me. On the R5 the dials are where they've always been. One on top near the shutter under the index finger and one top back near the shutter under the thumb. A third wheel lower on the back. So couldn't be easier compared with cameras without the third wheel. Shutter speed and f number on the dials near the shutter and either iso or exp comp on the wheel a little lower.

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You don't have to hold the ISO or EC button on the Z8 or Z9, you can set it so that you just press the ISO or EC button and then release it and then use the dial to change the ISO. Go to f16 "Release button the use dial" and set to "ON". You now just press the desired ISO/EC button, release and the use the command dial to adjust. Easy peasy.
 
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kanonka said:
Yeah, I'm guilty here. I'm too short tempered. I guess, I was probably just expecting too much from Z9, like same effortless focusing as with Sony, so any extra required input makes me angry at it. With time it'll go down, but right now I'm disappointed. If I didn't use A1 for so long before, my view would be different, but having used it now it feels like stepping down. If not the lens, I wouldn't do that.
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Your problem is that you’re expecting a Nikon to work the same as a Sony…and not utilizing and learning the Nikon AF way. At this point in time…we’ve seen enough of both systems to say both are excellent…and occasionally one will hit and the other miss. The results of a single user either way don’t affect the overall fleet average. What’s most important is to learn the one you use and how it works. Sounds like you’re new to Nikon and there are reasons to choose any brand of gear…but expecting them to all work identically to your existing muscle memory is short sighted.
 
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Anjin San said:
Your problem is that you’re expecting a Nikon to work the same as a Sony…and not utilizing and learning the Nikon AF way. At this point in time…we’ve seen enough of both systems to say both are excellent…and occasionally one will hit and the other miss. The results of a single user either way don’t affect the overall fleet average. What’s most important is to learn the one you use and how it works. Sounds like you’re new to Nikon and there are reasons to choose any brand of gear…but expecting them to all work identically to your existing muscle memory is short sighted.
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That's a really good description. Each camera is a little different by intent. Nikon tends to be a little more hands on with the philosophy experienced photographers want to take more control.

There are differences in the way the EVF works as well. The focus boxes are an overlay for the photographer and don't necessarily perform exactly the same as the camera. With Nikon cameras you'll have focus boxes that look like they missed the eye, but the head and eye are in perfect focus. With Sony you might have the box perfectly on the eye but focus may wander a little. And for both, the results are close to the same in spite of the differences through the EVF.
 
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EricBowles said:
Nikon tends to be a little more hands on with the philosophy experienced photographers want to take more control.
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I keep seeing this comment on forums and I don't agree with it at all. I feel Sony offers even more control with their AF options, more buttons and more customization to those buttons.
On top of that Sony makes some of their AF modes like Wide AF (non-tracking ) so good, with so little effort, that you don't necessarily need to make use of all the control offered through other AF options, including Tracking and non-tracking variation for all modes. But when you want more control, it is easy to setup the camera to take that control.

Nikon is a little less simple to use but they improved it a lot in the latest FW because they made AutoAF useable finally. But there is no way Nikon offers more control than Sony, they just force you to monkey around and "hand-off" etc...that to me isn't a positive at all (again though, this is much better on latest FW with useable AutoAF). With Sony you have the best of both worlds...choose what you like or make use of some hybrid approach like I do.

Real life example, when I borrowed the Z8 recently from my friend to test FW 2.0, I gave her the A1 and 400GM. We were mostly shooting flying ducks low on the water. Pretty fast ones at that like Buffleheads and Hoodies. I set her up in Wide AF non-tracking and told her to point and shoot. She was amazed at how easy it was and she has been refining her Nikon technique since she got the Z8 last summer. She is still happy with Nikon and I was the one who suggested she go for the Z8 in the first place as she was shooting Nikon DSLRs before and the Z8 was much better value than a new A1.
 
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arbitrage said:
I keep seeing this comment on forums and I don't agree with it at all. I feel Sony offers even more control with their AF options, more buttons and more customization to those buttons.
On top of that Sony makes some of their AF modes like Wide AF (non-tracking ) so good, with so little effort, that you don't necessarily need to make use of all the control offered through other AF options, including Tracking and non-tracking variation for all modes. But when you want more control, it is easy to setup the camera to take that control.

Nikon is a little less simple to use but they improved it a lot in the latest FW because they made AutoAF useable finally. But there is no way Nikon offers more control than Sony, they just force you to monkey around and "hand-off" etc...that to me isn't a positive at all (again though, this is much better on latest FW with useable AutoAF). With Sony you have the best of both worlds...choose what you like or make use of some hybrid approach like I do.

Real life example, when I borrowed the Z8 recently from my friend to test FW 2.0, I gave her the A1 and 400GM. We were mostly shooting flying ducks low on the water. Pretty fast ones at that like Buffleheads and Hoodies. I set her up in Wide AF non-tracking and told her to point and shoot. She was amazed at how easy it was and she has been refining her Nikon technique since she got the Z8 last summer. She is still happy with Nikon and I was the one who suggested she go for the Z8 in the first place as she was shooting Nikon DSLRs before and the Z8 was much better value than a new A1.
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That's all i do with my Z9 since firmware 4.10 even they added Bird SD, with Auto Area AF mode, is literally point and shoot 95% of the time. This is for initially recognition, acquisition and tracking. My hit rate of in focus shots is well over 90% Occasionally need 3D but very, very rarely. This is tracking swallows, terns, Kingfishers, diving Osprey.
 
EricBowles said:
That's a really good description. Each camera is a little different by intent. Nikon tends to be a little more hands on with the philosophy experienced photographers want to take more control.

There are differences in the way the EVF works as well. The focus boxes are an overlay for the photographer and don't necessarily perform exactly the same as the camera. With Nikon cameras you'll have focus boxes that look like they missed the eye, but the head and eye are in perfect focus. With Sony you might have the box perfectly on the eye but focus may wander a little. And for both, the results are close to the same in spite of the differences through the EVF.
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I don't really see the first point. I know Canon has anything a hands on photographer would want. I imagine other makers the same.
 
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I think the distinction between Sony, Canon, and Nikon is that Nikon requires the most user input to try to figure out what AF mode/combination is best. Both the Sony and Canon systems tend to have a default AF mode which works in almost every scenario.
 
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ajrmd said:
I think the distinction between Sony, Canon, and Nikon is that Nikon requires the most user input to try to figure out what AF mode/combination is best. Both the Sony and Canon systems tend to have a default AF mode which works in almost every scenario.
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Yep...that is pretty much how it goes. But Nikon on latest FW is much closer to the others than they were before. AutoAF is pretty good now. Not as good as the others but pretty good. Funny that back in the DSLR days Nikon was the king of AutoAF, set it and forget it. I think I did 95% of my BIF shooting in AutoAF on my D500/D850.
 
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I don’t think there’s going to be much difference to be honest. I have owned both and they both have plus and minuses. IMO Nikon has the best offerings for wildlife lenses at the moment but all the Sony lenses I own are absolutely incredible and very lightweight. Nikon has a better pricing strategy as well. IMO you can’t go wrong with either but can save some money going with Nikon. Just my two cents.
 
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Telscossie said:
Hi I wonder if anyone has tried both cameras with up to date firmware installed could tell me if they thought one was better than the other with the Autofocus regarding to Birds in flight . many thanks.
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Did you learn anything useful in this thread?

Z9 v A1 Autofocus

Has anyone got any experience with the Z9 and A1 with bird photography in mind with the latest firmware has been installed on both systems and which is better . many thanks
bcgforums.com bcgforums.com
 
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this topic can quickly degenerate into brand bashing. So try to stick my observations after extensive shooting with Z9 close to 400K photos.

Owning Z9 since Dec24, 2021. Camera improved a lot through firmware’s over years. Don’t own Sony.

Shot primarily with FTZ 500 PF till 2023 Oct snd Z600PF since then. Used big glass, zooms etc but lot lesser usage. Did bird photography mainly and wildlife lately. Shot bit of landscape, macro and stage photography as well. Used camera mainly during my morning walks to shoot birds for 150 to 180 days a year over last 3 years. No pressure of losing a photo as I can visit next day.

Camera has been customised extensively to suit my style of shooting and super comfortable with it. Shot both videos ( less) and photos.

Few observations on auto focus of Z9 camera based on latest firmware 5.0/ 5.1.

1. Auto focus works fairly well for most birds. Even in clutter it works well with right auto focus area.
2. If a bird has a pattern on head similar to eye, focus gets stuck on the pattern not eye. This has been observed with pied kingfishers found in India. Even if we move focus manually to eye, subject detection moves back to pattern at times.
3. Auto focus initial subject detection is slow at times even in clear light and subject at a fair distance, we can discern eye. Keep cycling to different areas. Not all subjects are cooperative to cycle from Auto area-AF to WC1(1*1) / single point.
4. Auto focus subject detection in low light or slightly difficult conditions is erratic. Tried with WC1(1*1) or single point. Tried keeping exposure normal. DX mode also doesn’t help.
5. At times with good light, Auto focus wanders off in burst, even after initially detecting eye before burst start. It’s not sticky.
6. Not shot a lot but my limited observation from few safaris, with mammals such as elephants, mongoose, bears and at times with tigers. Difficult to get eyes detected or make it sticky even in decent light and subject is big in frame. Instead of enjoying shooting, end up figuring best auto focus area etc in field. Cycle through different areas, focus dances around head or all over body.
7. At times I find subject detection works very well for videos.

We’ve to keep an extreme close watch on subject detection in field as it has a mind of its own to get best out of camera. Wish camera acquires subject more reliably, lot faster and more sticky. Who doesn’t?

Inspite of the above, got lot of good pictures over years.
 
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