Z9 vs 500 F/4 - Help me spend my money :)

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KCPhoto

KCPhoto

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Premise: I have the money for EITHER a Z9 OR 500 f/4 (hopefully E FL), but not both.

Ok all, (disclaimer) I am going to ask a question I might generally chuckle at if I saw on here because I know there is likely a string of questions headed my way with so many variables like what, when, who, how, hobbyist/pro, potato, pataaaato, etc.. But I AM going to buy a new piece of gear and need some constructive nudges. I currently have a D850 with decent (24mm up to 500mm) coverage for whatever I shoot, whether the grandbaby, sports, or a hunting raptor. So, on to the meat of the question...

Upgrade to Z9 or get a 500 f/4 and restart the savings process for Z9 later down the road?

Since obviously, either is going to be a dream to have on hand, this is where my thought process becomes blurred.
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A snazzy new Z9, "in theory," helps ALL my existing glass and has far superior video capability, which I would like to explore, and the ever-debated YSWYG view-finder. Theoretical glass gains come from:​
  1. improved AF accuracy, full AF sensor coverage, substantially improved focus modes w/ subject detection
  2. higher frame rate for more opportunities in sports and wildlife
  3. no worries about calibration (especially in zooms that can vary from end to end) *even from a tripod, I have never been blown away by my 200-500 unless in live view
Getting the amazing 500 F/4 can be a game changer for its extra stop, sharpness, weather-sealed build, and AF performance compared to 200-500, which seems to be almost always at 500mm for me. The F/4 glass was my original plan for my saved funds. The water got muddied when I thought about what the Z9 brings to the table in a more across-the-board and future-looking approach. I know, I know, the D850 can and does produce amazing quality, and when it locks focus, generally speaking, it matches the IQ of the Z9. Alongside that, more practice and shooting leads to better tracking by the guy behind the viewfinder who now could be producing creamy 500 f/4 goodness. See how it goes off course in my brain? Agghhhh, help me get the water more clear!!!​
 
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No doubt the Z9. Why get a Z8 with limitations over the Z9, mismatched Cards, Heat issues in both Stills and more so in video, much weaker battery and what looks like Nikon potentially forking the firmware between the Z8 and Z9. The Z8 will eventually get the Bird Subject Detection but they said sometime 1st half of 2024, that could be 8 months after the Z9 got it. So long waits for features that likely go to the Z9 first (Flagships always do) and also likely not all will trickle down to the Z8.

Then there is spending money on old F mount glass. Get the camera with the best AF around, adapt any f mount glass you have, they generally are sharper (no need to AF fine tune and you get critical sharpness with AF right off the sensor) and AF faster even adapted with the Z9. Sell off what you don't need and put towards Z glass. Plus, the 500f4 price can be used towards the FAR FAR superior 600PF or 800PF unless you have to have f4 for light gathering. You can also sell the 200-500 for $700-$900 and get a 180-600 for $1000 or less out of pocket till you can afford the prime you want.
 
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HR will kill me for asking but how old are you? What’s your time frame. If 10 years or more Z9 for sure. Adapt your glass until you can fund more. Example might be 400 f4.5 and 1.4 TC is something people consider as well.
 
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The D850 is my all time favorite camera! For everything! Wildlife, landscapes, etc. And you can get a great one for little money these days! And - my "photo changing" lens? The 500 f4! Master those two and then consider what is available when the time comes..................... GREAT DSLR glass is still superb! And it doesn't get much better than the D850....JMHO.

This would be the least expensive route.....and still be an upgrade.
 
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If your choice is either/or and if the list of equipment in you signature line is accurate by all means the lens will make the biggest difference in the quality of your photography. That said I would only go for the f4E. It is somewhat sharper, much lighter weight, and has a longer time horizon with support for maintenance/repairs. I don't even own a DSLR any more and am sorely tempted every time I see a 500 f4E for sale. I had the f4G and sold it intending to upgrade to the E version but it just never worked out.

Another option to consider is to get a 500PF. That would still be a significant upgrade to your kit and used ones can be had for less than half the going price of the f4E(used). You can hang on to the savings and continue to save for the eventual step into mirrorless.
 
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Of course, much depends on what you shoot and where.

I have a Z9 and a Z8 and do mostly wildlife, landscape and other nature work. I think there are significant gains from a Z9/Z8 body over the D850 (which I used for a number of years) if you do a significant amount of wildlife work, especially BIF or other fast action, or sports. I've not used the 500 mm f4. For weight reasons, I preferred the 500 mm PF.

And a Z 180-600 would improve on the 200-500 in a number of ways. Or if the budget allows, you could consider a Z 600 mm PF or Z 400 f4.5. The 500 mm PF works well on a Z body with the FTZ/FTZII adapter -- I used mine on my Z bodies until I got the Z 600 mm PF -- and used ones are available at attractive prices.

So I'd consider getting a Z8 and Z 180-600. With the current prices on the Z8, that would not be much more than a Z9.
 
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BarkingBeans Coffee said:
HR will kill me for asking but how old are you? What’s your time frame. If 10 years or more Z9 for sure. Adapt your glass until you can fund more. Example might be 400 f4.5 and 1.4 TC is something people consider as well.
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Wow... I didn't expect "when are you going to die" as one of the follow up questions. I am 45, so God willing, I have some time left.
 
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Butlerkid said:
The D850 is my all time favorite camera! For everything! And - my "photo changing" lens? The 500 f4! Master those two and then consider what is available when the time comes..................... GREAT DSLR glass is still superb! And it doesn't get much better than the D850....JMHO.
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Ahh yes the muddy water... You bring me right back to my self questioning. Z9 AF (generally more keepers for EVERYTHING other than static subject) vs 500 F/4 when you get a keeper in outdoor sports or wildlife, it might just have that amazingness that only the big wide primes can deliver. I have a TON of non keepers in the wildlife space that the 500 wouldn't fix but stickier AF (and certainly better technique) might have. But I also have keepers that would be SO much sharper and better separation with that same 500.
 
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KCPhoto said:
Wow... I didn't expect "when are you going to die" as one of the follow up questions. I am 45, so God willing, I have some time left.
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Well for sure time to transition to Z IMO. Have you considered waiting for the Z6iii specs to see how that would do for you. Then decide the glass direction. There are so manying threads here on choices. Also see what happens with Z8 firmware update. I know it means waiting until 46.
 
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KCPhoto said:
Ahh yes the muddy water... You bring me right back to my self questioning. Z9 AF (generally more keepers for EVERYTHING other than static subject) vs 500 F/4 when you get a keeper in outdoor sports or wildlife, it might just have that amazingness that only the big wide primes can deliver. I have a TON of non keepers in the wildlife space that the 500 wouldn't fix but stickier AF (and certainly better technique) might have. But I also have keepers that would be SO much sharper and better separation with that same 500.
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If you're getting more than the occasional OOF shot with a D850 the camera is not the problem. If the 200-500 is and will continue to be your main wildlife lens a Z9 is not likely to significantly improve your keeper rate. Based on my own experience. YMMV
 
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Like stated earlier, if you're getting a 500mm F-mount lens, be sure to get the FL E version. I have the G versions of both the 500mm f/4 and the 600mm f/4, and their af tracking doesn't seem to be as fast as the FL E and Z glass.

But, back to your original question, what do you think you want? What do you think would cause you to enjoy this affliction more? And were you to get the Z9, would you have the funds to also get the FTZ II?
 
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Deciding between a 500mm F/4 and Z9 is certainly a difficult decision. You should see an improvement in IQ with the 500mm but it is a spending money on a lens that will require an adapter once you move to Z later on. If you buy the lens, how long will you need to save for a new body? If a few years, it could make sense to buy the lens. If you bought the Z9, how long before you could buy a lens? Is there a reason you want the Z9 over the Z8? If you would be able to buy your desired lens with 1-2 years of the new camera, I would probably go that direction so you would be buying into current technology. We all have different wants and needs, but I’d take a Z8 and 400mm F/4.5 and 1.4x TC as my preferred setup. This combination is so flexible and portable and is what I use most often with the exception of grabbing the Z9 to have the new bird AF mode for now.
 
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I would go for the Z9 as long as you are comfortable with a heavier camera body.

The Z9 has it all, fastest shutter speed, dual grip, more buttons and controls, the best autofocus options, fastest everything. The technology in this camera is truly amazing and it is still being improved through firmware.

F mount and DSLR's are going away and the used lenses are just going to get cheaper as time goes by.

I would caution against buying a used F mount lens at this point.

If you did buy one I would suggest a deal can be had on the 500mm PF, which is a very remarkable and highly respected lens. A lot of people are selling theirs to upgrade to the Z 600mm pf so there are a lot of them on the market for good prices.

As you can afford it, slowly add Z lenses.
 
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I have a D850 and a 500mm f/4E. I was very happy with that. I bought a Z9 about a year or so ago and used the 500f/4 with an adapter and was very happy with that. The D850 is now my backup. A couple weeks ago I received a Z600TC and I'm still very happy. I've been happy with whatever I was able to have in my hands. I love the Z9 and 600 (also the 100-400) and am planning to get either another one or a Z8 as I completely transition to mirrorless. The 500 f/4 worked great on the Z9. I often used a 1.4 TC since I mostly shoot birds. The 600 with the TC available at the flick of a switch is very notable. One question is... what can you afford? I have over $20,000 into the Z9 and 600. You can probably get the D850 and 500 for around a third of that. I'm planning to sell my DSLR stuff in the near future. I have a 14mm, a 24-70, a 70-200, a pack, batteries, memory, and a teleconverter as well. Let me know if you decide to go that way. Results of the equipment and my shooting/editing is at mrtk.smugmug.com. Good luck with your decision. Personally I would save up for the Z8/9 and all that goes with it.
 
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KCPhoto said:
Premise: I have the money for EITHER a Z9 OR 500 f/4 (hopefully E FL), but not both.
Click to expand...

KCPhoto said:
Upgrade to Z9 or get a 500 f/4 and restart the savings process for Z9 later down the road?
Click to expand...

I was in a similar situation a couple of months ago.
I was coming from a D500 and Sigma 150-600mm C and had the money for a Z8 or a 500mm f5.6 PF but not both.
I ended up with an OMDS OM-1 and 300mm f4 as I got them both new for a great price (almost 1000$ less than a Z8).
Got a good upgrade in both camera body (black-out free EVF, 25 fps, animal detection AF) and in lens (faster AF, brighter lens, sharper image quality). This allowed me to get keepers in the past months that I wouldn't have gotten if I stuck with my original choices.

As such, I think that if you get hung up on either the Z9 or 500mm f4 E you are making a mistake.

If you get the Z9, you'll still be limited with the 200-500mm f5.6, which, though not a bad lens by any means, it is slow to grab initial focus, has average performance at longer distance and has quite a bit of focus breathing (I'd say it's a ~450mm when fully zoomed and focused under 20m).

If you get the 500mm F4 E, you'll get a stunning lens but you'll be missing out on all the bells and whistles that high end Z mirrorless brings and that allow you to get more keepers and make shots easier. You'll also need to adapt to monopod/tripod with gimbal shooting...

I think the smartest thing you can do is this:
Get a Z8 and FTZ now as it's got a great price these days.
Put the 1500$ or so you saved over getting the Z9 back in the savings process.
March or April 2024 sell the D850 and 200-500mm f5.6 and with what you saved above and in the mean-time get a Nikon 400mm f4.5 and the Z 1.4x TC.

This way, come next spring, you'll have the best of both worlds: all the bells and whistles of Z-mount mirrorless and a solid upgrade over your current wildlife lens. You will get more keepers and better shots than if you would have gone the "just Z9" or "just 500mm f4 E" routes.

P.S: but if it must be a Z9 or 500mm f4E, then get the Z9 and save for the 500mm f4E as by the time you have the money for it, you might find better deals for Z-mount telephotos.
 
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No question...go for 500 F/4E FL.
Z9 next time.

ultra fast AF, only 6 lb, and...outstanding, outstanding image quality...it is another league - when we compared with 180-600, 400 4.5 + TC 1.4 , 200-500, 800 PF.
Interestigly, even with TC 1.4III outperforms 800 PF (sharpness).
I use this lens about 8 years (D500, D850, Z9) mainly for aviation photos and nature photography.
 
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I prefer to buy first good lentes. if you are not thinking in a Z lenses (much more expensive), when you can afford the cámara, perhaps you will have the oportunity to get the same camera... or next version. the lenses change and improve less than cameras nowdays...
 
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What will you use the 500 F4 for? There are some things an F4 tele will do that slower lenses like the 500PF or slower Z lenses cannot do, but those things are only in low light. For example dusk/dawn shooting foxes or certain birds in a forest. On a tripod, taking a lot of shots at 1/10-1/25s at 12800 iso+, at that point a slower lens does not get a usable shot or does not acquire focus.
If you hike while shooting, and shoot in more light, it is not necessary. It is heavy (adapter + lens is about 3.3kgs), you can hand hold for a while but you will get tired. And the VR is not the same level as Z lenses. AF speed on the 500F4 is about as quick and accurate as Z lenses, but a lot louder.
It also takes the 1.4TC very well, I estimate a 10% loss in resolution.
If you want both, I believe the 500F4 will continue to lose value faster than a used Z9 will.
 
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Lot of good questions and thoughts on this thread far.

I currently use a Z9 with the 500 F/4E and it's pretty much all I shoot with and mostly birds. They are both great pieces of equipment but I had to choose one I would go with the 500 f/4E as it was the biggest wow moment for me out of all my gear purchases over the years.

I find the weight very manageable using the Z9/500 F/4E combo primarily on a monopod with the wimberly monogimbal and when hiking I rest it over my shoulder so that the weight is resting on top of my backpack making it no problem to walk around all day like that and did just that for the last two weeks on vacation. I had the 500 pf prior to this lens and thought I'd never get rid of the PF but once I got the F/4E and saw the benefits of the F4 in low light, the backgrounds! , and 1.4 TC capabilities I never used my PF again and sold it. The lens easily fits in a carry on which I usually just use my Shimoda action X bag for that. The used prices for this lens have dropped a lot in the last year as well making it a few thousand cheaper to acquire compared to what I paid a few years ago.

The D850 I've only used a couple times and loved it and if you're happy with that camera now all the more reason to go with the F/4E. I love the Z9 but I had a D5 before that which I still think about the great shots I got with that. So when I moved to the Z9 one of the immediate differences for me was the difference in MP allowing for more cropping since I primarily shoot birds and you already have the MP advantage with the D850.
 
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When I used the 200-500 as my main lens, then saved my nickels and dimes until I could buy the 500 f/5.6 PF, it was the biggest improvement in image quality I had yet experienced in my 50+ years as a photographer. I can only assume the same would be true with the 500 f/4. Just my 2 cents. :)
 
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