Z9 vs 500 F/4 - Help me spend my money :)

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You are absolutely correct. The lens bought at $9500 for a 300 f/2.8 or $11,000 for 500F4 still in mint condition and performs immaculate. Why would we accept under I/3 when it still sells at original price years later. Never sell the classic/exotic lenses. Cameras are drastically changing every two years, such as the Sony A9ii redefining the landscape only to be blown away by the A1. Then the Z9 ascending to the top of BIF with the firmware updates. Epic glass will last decades.
I can always buy another 300 2.8 VR II if i need to replace it or need the parts LOL.

I am a absolute F2.8 glass lover and in the long lenses a F4 prime lover.

How many people come up to you looking at your photo and ask what camera did you use.

Mirror less technology is great for so many reasons, the main one is marketing and harnessing the newer generations into photography, we are also all slowly being herded into the direction of is Videography were it will be mostly common place to make stills.

The market and industry is moving forward with AI and all that new mirror less technology which is brilliant, for now however i am happy swimming on the DSLR pool with a Z9 on my back, also where exotic DSLR gear is crazy in price and abundance.

When you in a audience blind test they cant tell in a photography which system was used that's the tell all.
My mates cleaned up with a D4S on a 400 2.8 G, another on the D850 with the 600 F4 FL, the mirror less exotics came 3rd 4th, the difference was simply the subject, the story, the execution, not the gear.

Mirror less glass is really great and so are the cameras, don't get me wrong, i have a Z9 as well as a D850 and rent a D6 from time to time as many of my day shooters may be Canon users and for a day need to shoot and cant get their head around a Z9 so easily or quickly.

Only an opinion
 
We should never feel left behind because we don't get into mirror less gear, we should be measured on our results not what we have.

Only an opinion
 
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Thank you to everyone for SO many responses. I knew when I asked the question that there would be two very distinct camps. I have ALWAYS believed that glass comes first. This is indeed the first time I can find any compelling argument against it. In the end I will end up with both mirrorless and long f/4 glass. I have met me, so I know where this ends :D and that is me being $10k or more lighter down the road.

After reading all the responses, I am about 5% closer to knowing what my move is. I tallied it up, removing all the suggestions for 600pf and the like, and the group is about 50/50 with many making arguments for why neither is a "bad" choice. I generally only purchase reputable used/refurb items. I see not much value in paying Nikon retail when it comes to these rugged tanks, especially bodies. My "choice" might very well end up coming down to coming across a deal too hard to pass on a 500 f/4 before Z9 or vice versa.

If I do end up Z9 (which is where I am leaning currently) I will most likely snag a 500pf as I have eyed them for a long time. They are almost cheap at this point. I know I will still long for that low light f/4 goodness. So, maybe in 18 months or so I will be saying something like "cheap" for the 500 f/4. I have watched them drop quite a bit in price over the last 12 months.

Pic: D500 and 200-500, just because

500_2689.jpg
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Hi KC, I have a used 500 f/4 that I would be willing to part with for pretty cheap. I tried to PM you but can't due to my low number of posts on this site. But if you PM me, I can provide a lot more detail on the situation. You can check out my IG @mark.noll.photography to make sure this is a legit offer and not a scam post (hopefully this is within the forum rules and I apologize if not, I just don't have the 10 posts needed to PM folks yet)
 
I have a Z9 and rely on my F mount teles most of the time. The only Z mount long tele I own is the 100-400mm S. I own and use the 300mm f2.8 and the 500mm f4 Nikon lenses, both the latest models. I also own and use the 300mm f4 pf and the 500mm f5.6 pf and use them when I am walking around or when I do not have the ability to use a tripod, blind and other things I normally use with wide prime tele lenses. My 500mm f5.6 pf gets used a lot due to its small size and low weight and great IQ.

What will work best for you depends on your age, health, budget, and types of shooting situations you will be facing most of the time. There is no right or wrong here. Buy what will work best for you. At 80, things are different for me than when I was 75.
 
I'll not invest in a new F 500 Lens today (already 10K), if you can find an used one, a 500 f/4 will definitely be a game changer compare to the 200-500 f/5.6 which is already an excellent lens for its price range. Probably time to move to the Z series anyway. keep in mind the weight if you need to hike a lot to get to your favorite spot this can be a concern, the Z series is lighter also. as we say, the best lens is the one you always take with you on the field.
giving your age, the Z move is probably the best option. good luck with this.

And a Happy New Year to all :)
 
Thank you to everyone for SO many responses. I knew when I asked the question that there would be two very distinct camps. I have ALWAYS believed that glass comes first. This is indeed the first time I can find any compelling argument against it. In the end I will end up with both mirrorless and long f/4 glass. I have met me, so I know where this ends :D and that is me being $10k or more lighter down the road.

After reading all the responses, I am about 5% closer to knowing what my move is. I tallied it up, removing all the suggestions for 600pf and the like, and the group is about 50/50 with many making arguments for why neither is a "bad" choice. I generally only purchase reputable used/refurb items. I see not much value in paying Nikon retail when it comes to these rugged tanks, especially bodies. My "choice" might very well end up coming down to coming across a deal too hard to pass on a 500 f/4 before Z9 or vice versa.

If I do end up Z9 (which is where I am leaning currently) I will most likely snag a 500pf as I have eyed them for a long time. They are almost cheap at this point. I know I will still long for that low light f/4 goodness. So, maybe in 18 months or so I will be saying something like "cheap" for the 500 f/4. I have watched them drop quite a bit in price over the last 12 months.

Pic: D500 and 200-500, just because

View attachment 77824
Beautiful owl!
If you are thinking about adding a 500mm f5.6 pf, there's at least one on this forum. I'm shooting with a d500 and a used 500mm pf I got last summer and love it. My 500mm at $2k was more expensive than they are selling for now. I put $300 into servicing the lens at Nikon, and am a happy camper now.
Good luck.
 
I did a lot of investigation of possible lens choices to expand the telephoto/birding capability of the Z8/9. Here is a summary of what I believe to be some of the best choices.

1. Older, cheap exotics: You can find older top quality functioning F mount lenses for under two grand. The drawback is that these lenses tend to be very large and very heavy.
2. 500mm PF: this lens is really highly rated for quality and it is one of the most effective reasonably priced birding lenses in the F mount. They can be found used for roughly $1800.
3. Z 180-600 zoom: New design, amazingly inexpensive. Not an S lens but has had excellent optical reports despite some limitations. Lens is oversubscribed with a long waiting list. Cost about $1600. Lens is relatively large and heavy.
4. Z 100-400 mm zoom:: A well-regarded zoom option in a S lens. Many prefer this as a zoom option working with a longer prime. Most likely above 2 grand but might find some used slightly under.
5. Z 400mm f4.5: A prime quality lens that is optically close in image quality to the reference top quality prime the 400mm f2.8. I have this lens and it is incredibly sharp, will outperform other lenses so far on this list except for the 500mm pf. You can use it effectively with a teleconverter out to about 560 and less so out to 800mm using a 2x tc. Cost about 3 grand but you might catch a used one for a bit less.
6. Used late model F mount super primes including 400mm f2.8 and 600mm f4: These are state of the art top quality prime lenses that cost 14 grand or more. Look around carefully and you will find some of these available in the 5-6 grand range. These are lighter and more current than the older models but significantly heavier and lacking in features in the latest Z super primes.
7. Z 600mm f6.3 vr s: The apparent successor to the F 500 PF this lens is superb optically and has been compared favorably to the super prime 600's. I have one of these, cost is about $5600. Not as fast as the super prime 600. Get most of the optical performance of the $16 grand 600mm f4 at a third of the price. This is a very effective lens with a 1.4tc at 840mm and can be used out to 1200mm if the subject is large in the frame.
8. Z 800mm F6.3 vr s: An amazingly effective lens it is the equal or better in its optical range than anything else out there subject only to the super expensive and super heavy F 800mm f5.6. This lens sells new for $6500 but you can find used ones for $5500. I have one of these. Need to work in conjunction with a shorter lens for anything under 800mm but it will handle anything possible longer.
9. Z 400mm f2.8: Priced at about $14 grand it is the reference lens at this focal length. It can work both with an internal tc and external tc to provide options at various longer focal lengths. Choice between this and the next lens for the ideal birding lens.
10. Z 600mm f4 tc vr: At $16 grand it is the ultimate birding lens for many. Through use of teleconverters will rival the 800mm at all longer lengths. Many prefer this lens as it is both the best 600mm lens and also equal to the 800mm lens.
Makes logical sense with much of your assessment. Enjoyed your views.

The 100-400 is i feel really very much overpriced for what it is.

Older glass, i sold my big 600 F4 a few years ago, mostly due to infrequent use, I do find the 300 2.8 VR II i have offers F2.8, or F4 with a 1.4Tc, invaluable for most of what i do, yes 1.5 kgs heavier than the newer lenses but its F2.8, not F5.6 or F6.3, personally i don't have a strength issue and i throw my 300 2.8 around like a 28-300 LOL, it may not have the reach for many birders, that said, i am but not a major bird shooter, but for so much else F2.8 is a versatile very powerful light gathering tool with stunning background results, i use it 90% of the time at F2.8 therefor with very little ISO needed, the image quality is super tolerable to cropping, this married up to a 45 or if ever available a 60mp sensor is still great for what i do. Usually i will rent if i need anything different.

I think the new Z options are fabulous, especially for weight size and TC tolerance, all these features make them very very attractive, but largely compared to any F2.8 glass makes them a little more fair light fair weather lenses.

My preference is the 400 F4.5, 500 PF or 600 PF but purely for size and weight for travel or lots of walking around. Nikon has done a great job in filling in this range or area, sadly with a little to much price.

For myself sharpness depends on the user, light is the best tool of all, like using a flash, in principal the more light makes more colour, contrast and detail as we know.

In fair conditions most lenses all seem very much the same, sharp and clear, not so in less ideal conditions, dawn dusk, overcast, night times under lights with heavy shadows.

When Nikon comes out with its 300 F2.8 PF it will be much lighter and possibly smaller BUT at a very very expensive price, why so, because can name its price as we always pay LOL.

If you want it you will pay for it, simple, LOL.

Only an opinion
 
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With photographing large mammals and most birds a DSLR was more than adequate. However, with small birds moving about where manual focus is not enough I would get shots where the face and eyes were not sharp. Big difference with the bird subject detection of the Z9 camera. Even with the 800mm PF and small birds moving quickly through branches the camera would lock focus in a second and I could shoot 100% hand held.
 
A question for all you 500 f4 owners that have ALSO shot 200-500mm and/or 500pf. How does longer distance to subject compare? Meaning take the same image, smallish in frame and compare finished image. I find my 200-500mm decently sharp even with small in frame close subjects. But lacking severely even with large subjects over about 75 yds. I have read a few posts over the years saying the f/4 and to some degree pf can help dramatically here even over good copies of the 200-500mm. Anyone here that can attest in the real world without the blanket statement "of course the more expensive glass is better"? Also, ruling atmospherics out as they would essentially affect them all 3 similarly.
 
@KCPhoto

As I wrote earlier, I photograph aviation. 99.99% of my photos are handhold. Usually at distances of 300-1000 meters. I shoot all three lenses. The difference between the 500 F/4E FL and the 200-500 5.6 is huge. This is a different class. AF, sharpness, contrast and cropping capabilities.
I crop a lot, and heavy, practically always, Even when use TC 1.4 III. I was considering 800 PF (I rent from nikon) , but I resigned for two reasons - in my tests 800 PF was weaker then 500 F/4E FL + TC 1.4 III, and I would lose F4 needed in worse conditions.

If we are talking about 500 PF, it is not the 500 FL class either. But it's definitely better than 200-500. The sharpness is better, especially at the edge of the frame, and the AF is faster and more accurate. But this is not the 500 F/4E FL. In nature, when there is little light... I would take F4.
 
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@KCPhoto

As I wrote earlier, I photograph aviation. 99.99% of my photos are handhold. Usually at distances of 300-1000 meters. I shoot all three lenses. The difference between the 500 F/4E FL and the 200-500 5.6 is huge. This is a different class. AF, sharpness, contrast and cropping capabilities.
I crop a lot, and heavy, practically always, Even when use TC 1.4 III. I was considering 800 PF (I rent from nikon) , but I resigned for two reasons - in my tests 800 PF was weaker then 500 F/4E FL + TC 1.4 III, and I would lose F4 needed in worse conditions.

If we are talking about 500 PF, it is not the 500 FL class either. But it's definitely better than 200-500. The sharpness is better, especially at the edge of the frame, and the AF is faster and more accurate. But this is not the 500 F/4E FL. In nature, when there is little light... I would take F4.
I can relate to your findings of the 200-500, 500pf 500 f4 FL, however i did find in my specific application recently the differnce between the 500 PF and 200-500 optically there wasnt as big a gap based mostly on having a good 200-500sample.

I am totally a F2.8 F4 Prime lover for all the reasons you mention, and the D850 - Z9 45mp resolution sensors further enhance the outcomes of this glass.

I think Nikon has launched a range of very diverse usable tools in the new Z System and in good light conditions there isnt a hughe gap these days opticall amonst them all including teh exotics.
That said there are still stunning prime lenses in the FX range that hold their own.

For myslef i need the verstility of the Zoom especially as i use my mdified 200-500 as a push pull, not possible in the new Z range.
While money is not a object, the princiapl is, at the time $1350-$1600 AUD for a 200-500 and $5500 to $6000 AUD for a 500 PF was simply a gouge as is much of the newer glass and cameras these days.

I still have the300 2.8 FR II falling in price rapidly, i sold the 600 F4 a while ago, i now only rent the 600 fl as needed.
But absoluitly as you say F2.8 or F4 in the primes are still the pick everytime especilly in falling or challenging light.

Only an opinion
 
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