Z9 vs 500 F/4 - Help me spend my money :)

[abc123brian]

When I used the 200-500 as my main lens, then saved my nickels and dimes until I could buy the 500 f/5.6 PF, it was the biggest improvement in image quality I had yet experienced in my 50+ years as a photographer. I can only assume the same would be true with the 500 f/4. Just my 2 cents.

I wonder if some of that is related to sample variation because I had both the 200-500 and 500pf and they were both had excellent IQ. The 500mm was a bit better, but the weight and size along with AF improvement was the reason I used the PF instead.

 

[wotan1]

The obvious and most happy solution is to sell your home, sell your family into slavery and buy the z9, a spare z8, z 600mm tc and the F mount 500mm just for fun anyway.

Pick up a few other z lenses while you are at it.

Only then will you achieve true happiness.

 

[KCPhoto]

If your choice is either/or and if the list of equipment in you signature line is accurate by all means the lens will make the biggest difference in the quality of your photography.

Another option to consider is to get a 500PF. That would still be a significant upgrade to your kit and used ones can be had for less than half the going price of the f4E(used). You can hang on to the savings and continue to save for the eventual step into mirrorless.

I have certainly thought about a stopgap-type compromise like the 500PF. I know there are better copies of the 200-500 out there than the one I have, so it likely would be far more eye-pleasing out of the gate but I do think I will still long for that f/4 goodness. So therein lies the muddiness again. I have seen a lot of EXCELLENT photos by you with your 500PF, which I assume has gone to the wayside as I don't see it in your posts much anymore and it was for sale at some point.

Maybe a compromise; get the Z9, FTZ2, sell/trade the 200-500, get the 500pf. The 500, FTZ, plays very nice with the 500pf. The 500F4 E or G will continue coming down in cost.

Several suggested this compromise. It is certainly in my thoughts and is part of the initial muddying in the first place, I just left if off the "options" in my OP.

I ended up with an OMDS OM-1 and 300mm f4 as I got them both new for a great price (almost 1000$ less than a Z8).
Got a good upgrade in both camera body (black-out free EVF, 25 fps, animal detection AF) and in lens (faster AF, brighter lens, sharper image quality). This allowed me to get keepers in the past months that I wouldn't have gotten if I stuck with my original choices.

As such, I think that if you get hung up on either the Z9 or 500mm f4 E you are making a mistake.

If you get the Z9, you'll still be limited with the 200-500mm f5.6, which, though not a bad lens by any means, it is slow to grab initial focus, has average performance at longer distance and has quite a bit of focus breathing (I'd say it's a ~450mm when fully zoomed and focused under 20m).

If you get the 500mm F4 E, you'll get a stunning lens but you'll be missing out on all the bells and whistles that high end Z mirrorless brings and that allow you to get more keepers and make shots easier. You'll also need to adapt to monopod/tripod with gimbal shooting...

I think the smartest thing you can do is this:
Get a Z8 and FTZ now as it's got a great price these days.
Put the 1500$ or so you saved over getting the Z9 back in the savings process.
March or April 2024 sell the D850 and 200-500mm f5.6 and with what you saved above and in the mean-time get a Nikon 400mm f4.5 and the Z 1.4x TC.

P.S: but if it must be a Z9 or 500mm f4E, then get the Z9 and save for the 500mm f4E as by the time you have the money for it, you might find better deals for Z-mount telephotos.

1. I do see a lot of great images from that OM-1, but I have no plans to jump ship from Nikon or have a dedicated one-genre setup in my bag.
2. I am not interested in the Z8 in general as I love the vertical grip. It rarely leaves my D850. With the Z9 its built in so there is one less seam for environmental protection, and gets more custom buttons

If you want both, I believe the 500F4 will continue to lose value faster than a used Z9 will.

This a strong piece of my equation as well. It makes the 500PF as a placeholder while I save up again for the 500 f/4 more attractive.

When I used the 200-500 as my main lens, then saved my nickels and dimes until I could buy the 500 f/5.6 PF, it was the biggest improvement in image quality I had yet experienced in my 50+ years as a photographer. I can only assume the same would be true with the 500 f/4. Just my 2 cents.

Thank you for sharing from your 50+ years. That is what I love about this forum, there are so many people that help, way before they begin to criticize, when compared to all the other places out there.

 

[NorthernFocus]

...I do think I will still long for that f/4 goodness. So therein lies the muddiness again. ...

Doesn't sound muddy to me. Sounds like you've got your answer. If you truly long for the IQ of the 500 f4 not sure what there is too think about. Buying a new body isn't going to get you there.

I've owned one or two camera bodies of every generation that Nikon has released since the D70 including now both Z8/9. And have owned super tele lenses from the cheapest to the most expensive. In my experience there is no other piece of hardware that will make as big a change in you photography as high end glass. Newer camera bodies might make shooting easier/more fun. But they don't give that step change difference in output like you get with a big prime lens. That said, when I got the 500PF I ended up selling the 500 f4 due to lack of use.

 

[jcollins]

The question I asked myself when choosing to upgrade -- what will keep me the happiest for the longest time? I chose to get a Z9 because a cheaper body would compromise on too many things (heat management, dual CF express for burst, vertical grip, battery life, bird subject detection, etc) and because I felt like the feature set of the Z9 is at a point where it feels "feature complete" *to me*. Then I compromised with a 180-600mm lens because I can work around many of the drawbacks of the f/6.3 aperture at 600mm, e.g. via positioning in the field to increase background/foreground separation.

We're only in the first generation of Z lenses, and it's entirely possible that within the next 4-5yrs they release new versions of the 400 and 600 primes. At that point, the first generation Z primes may fit in your budget as well, and the built in TC seems like an excellent value proposition over what you're considering at the moment. A quick look online shows the AF-S versions for the 600mm were released in 1996, 2001, and 2007.

edit - I don't know if anyone has suggested this yet, why not rent both and see how they perform? I find my dreams are often rosier than reality, and I've often found my mind has changed after getting hands on experience.

 

[KCPhoto]

edit - I don't know if anyone has suggested this yet, why not rent both and see how they perform? I find my dreams are often rosier than reality, and I've often found my mind has changed after getting hands on experience.

Oh, trust me, renting would be optimal. But even here in a fairly large population of about 3 Million in our metro area, there are no local rental houses with Z9 or f/4 e fl. Renting online would put me about $750 bucks in by the time I was done with both for the 1 week minimum. At about 15% of the cost of either, that is far too big a dent in my saved up funds for me to justify. In the end, I will be happy with either, I just have to decide.

 

[Rassie]

How good is good enough?
Z8 or Z9 will be a vast improvement in capability compared to D850.
500mm F/4, sure, just about as good IQ as you can get.

In your shoes, I would seriously consider the Z8 or Z9, plus the Z 600mm PF. If that does not work, then Z8 or Z9 plus 500mm PF. That way you get a darn good lens and the latest, most capable camera tech at a reasonable cost. Seriously, once you're into mirrorless I would be surprised if you ever looked back at a DSLR. Any lens you have, whether F-mount or Z-mount, will perform better on a mirrorless body than the F-mount lenses do on a DSLR body. What I'm saying here is that I think an F-mount 500mm PF or a Z-mount 600mm PF on a mirrorless body may give you very similar sharpness compared to an F-mount 500mm F/4 lens on a D850, mainly because of the better focusing accuracy of the mirrorless bodies. No need for autofocus fine tuning on the mirrorless body either.

Yes, the 500mm F/4 will definitely have the edge in bokeh compared to the two PF lenses, plus the larger aperture allows more light in and that results in lower ISO for cleaner images in dim light. But today's AI noise reduction software is so good that I often now shoot at significantly higher ISO's than what I was able to do a year ago.

Every decision regarding photo gear today is a compromise unless one has unlimited funds. If you cannot afford both a Z8 or Z9 plus the 500mm F/4, I would forego the 500mm F/4 and very happily settle for one of those Z bodies and the F-mount 500mm PF or the Z-mount 600mm PF lenses. And save some money in the process. And save a significant amount of weight in the gear as well. Hand-holding one of those lenses is a breeze compared to the 500mm F/4.

Hence the question: How good is good enough?

 

[Dionigi Colombo]

The D850 is definitely the best all-around SLR ever produced. The Z8/9 would give you better tracking, a faster burst, and silent shooting which with some animals is really handy...but the separation of planes, the brightness, the blur, the quality of a 500 (although it's a length I don't like, I prefer 400 or 600) no machine will ever be able to give you
I would have no doubt

 

[markymark]

Wow... I didn't expect "when are you going to die" as one of the follow up questions. I am 45, so God willing, I have some time left.

………………

 

[wotan1]

You are going to be around a long time; the mirrorless is the future, there will be no more new DSLR bodies built and they are probably soon going to stop building F mount lenses.

The Z9 is an extraordinarily complex and nuanced machine. There is a learning curve before you can get the most out of this marvelous camera. I recommend you get started now.

Your existing F mount lenses will work better on the Z9 than on a mirrorless body. Both the VR and autofocus function better.

At the same time the native Z lenses offer significant improvements over their F mount counterpart. The mirrorless lens opening is significantly wider and mounts closer to the focal plane. They integrate better with the Z9's IBIS which makes VR work better.

In the end though whatever you choose will be the right choice for you. None of us can decide for you.

 

[fulltimewanderer]

KCPhoto,

Just another thought maybe rent a 500pf try it on your D850. See the image quality for yourself and see if it meets or exceeds your expectations. Also compare image quality of the 500pf to your 200-500. This comparison may solve your dilemma. If your pleased then I’d say trade/sell your 200/500 go the Z9, FTZ2, and purchase a new or used 500pf. Have fun and enjoy your choice

 

[bleirer]

I'm normally one to agree that the smart money bets on the glass. But the mirrorless revolution is just that, a revolution. So I'd guess in this case I'd go for the body first then transition to the z glass as soon as possible. Nice problem to have though.

 

[Phil Seu]

I understand what some people are saying about the glass being more important than the body and this may be true in general. BUT for any kind of photography of a fast moving subject, getting 45MP RAW files at 20 fps (maybe 30 with new firmware) versus 7 fps is truly a game changer. With my Z9, I am getting shots easily that seemed so difficult to get in the past before mirrorless. So the answer really depends on what you want to capture. For me, it is action shots of raptors: See my website for recent examples www.philseu.com

 

[Anjin San]

Well…depends on whether the advantages of the Z bodies appeal to you…if they do I would buy a Z8 though…unless the grip or longer np artery life appeals to you but the latter is easily overcome. The Z9 currently has slight better AF since it does bird subject ID but that’s coming to the Z8 soon. The issue with the 500/4 is that it’s still an F lens and while perfectly usable and will take great images…the Z counterparts are better pretty much across the board…and the reality is that F is destined for obsolescence these days. Depending on your age and needs and budget…that might or might not be a serious consideration. The reality is that the Z8/9 are better at AF, subject recognition, and FPS than any F body…but again better is the enemy of good enough and those other considerations might override. Personally…if the Z8 and Z9 had been available at the same time…I would have 2 Z8s instead of 1 of each…because I don’t shoot portrait much and have no use for the grip and its extra weight/size.

 

[Hooligans Imagery]

Well…depends on whether the advantages of the Z bodies appeal to you…if they do I would buy a Z8 though…unless the grip or longer np artery life appeals to you but the latter is easily overcome. The Z9 currently has slight better AF since it does bird subject ID but that’s coming to the Z8 soon.

Battery is relevant for Auto Capture though for some bird work, and if this isn’t relevant maybe Z6iii (late Jan looks likely) might be something that saves $$ but delivers what OP wants.
Bird AF to Z8 - probably but we don‘t know for sure. Nikon did pull that comment from their video.

 

[Anjin San]

No doubt the Z9. Why get a Z8 with limitations over the Z9, mismatched Cards, Heat issues in both Stills and more so in video, much weaker battery and what looks like Nikon potentially forking the firmware between the Z8 and Z9. The Z8 will eventually get the Bird Subject Detection but they said sometime 1st half of 2024, that could be 8 months after the Z9 got it. So long waits for features that likely go to the Z9 first (Flagships always do) and also likely not all will trickle down to the Z8.

Then there is spending money on old F mount glass. Get the camera with the best AF around, adapt any f mount glass you have, they generally are sharper (no need to AF fine tune and you get critical sharpness with AF right off the sensor) and AF faster even adapted with the Z9. Sell off what you don't need and put towards Z glass. Plus, the 500f4 price can be used towards the FAR FAR superior 600PF or 800PF unless you have to have f4 for light gathering. You can also sell the 200-500 for $700-$900 and get a 180-600 for $1000 or less out of pocket till you can afford the prime you want.

The disadvantages of the Z8 compared to the Z9 are…IMO…overrated unless those slight limitations matter to you. The SD second slot is a non issue since one can get 1.3TB CFe cards…and the overheating in video issue isn’t a problem unless you are filming Dr. Zhivago. Battery wise…Z8 batteries are a lot cheaper and smaller than Z9 batteries…and if you really need a bigger one Anker has a lot of solutions for that…I have never been limited by the Z8 battery. I would trade my Z9 straight up for a second Z8 and not think a second about it…because I have no use for the grip, don’t do portrait, like the lighter body, and the ‘disadvantage’ of the Z8 are irrelevant to my needs and wants. I do agree…in 2024 (in a few days)…buying F glass is not a good idea unless budget or specific crucial need is the bigger driv…..and I would never carry the size and weight of the 500/4 and the tripod it needs when the 600PF is so much lighter, doesn’t need a tripod, and all the other Z lens advantages.

 

[Anjin San]

Battery is relevant for Auto Capture though for some bird work, and if this isn’t relevant maybe Z6iii (late Jan looks likely) might be something that saves $$ but delivers what OP wants.
Bird AF to Z8 - probably but we don‘t know for sure. Nikon did pull that comment from their video.

Auto capture is gonna be on a tripod…so just stick an Anker battery in the stone bag and then battery is no longer relevant. Nikon has already said bird is coming to Z8…but TBH it is only marginally better than animal on birds if one does a fleet average of all the reviews. Better yes…but not significantly from what I’ve seen. And weight vs wanting a grip vs 30 minute video needs and other factors also come into play…for some the Z9 will be optimum but for just as many the balance will tilt to the Z8 because…needs and budget and other factors. And…we have zero idea whether OP actually cares a whit about auto capture anyway. But multiple opinions and viewpoints and all that give him food for thought.

 

[Anjin San]

The obvious and most happy solution is to sell your home, sell your family into slavery and buy the z9, a spare z8, z 600mm tc and the F mount 500mm just for fun anyway.

Pick up a few other z lenses while you are at it.

Only then will you achieve true happiness.

My bide won’t even be my Sherpa even if I offer to cook her another great dinner (she says I will do that anyway since I eat too…and she’s right there)…so she’s darned sure not going to let me sell her into slavery.

 

[Hooligans Imagery]

Auto capture is gonna be on a tripod…so just stick an Anker battery in the stone bag and then battery is no longer relevant. Nikon has already said bird is coming to Z8…but TBH it is only marginally better than animal on birds if one does a fleet average of all the reviews. Better yes…but not significantly from what I’ve seen. And weight vs wanting a grip vs 30 minute video needs and other factors also come into play…for some the Z9 will be optimum but for just as many the balance will tilt to the Z8 because…needs and budget and other factors. And…we have zero idea whether OP actually cares a whit about auto capture anyway. But multiple opinions and viewpoints and all that give him food for thought.

Actually this is a good thought for me.
On the Z8 what I am curious though is how does one define $1,500 of value between the two. It has to be more than a grip since you don’t value it. What Firmware differences will remain, or is the play you have to wait for them, which is all it could be.

 

[Anjin San]

Actually this is a good thought for me.
On the Z8 what I am curious though is how does one define $1,500 of value between the two. It has to be more than a grip since you don’t value it. What Firmware differences will remain, or is the play you have to wait for them, which is all it could be.

Well…I got the Z9 because I wanted AF, FPS, and the other things it has that my Z7II doesn’t…but would have gotten the Z8 if both had been available at the time. Pre-ordered the Z8 for my second body because it and the Z9 operate so differently…and as I said I would swap the 9 for another 8 in a heartbeat. For me…the extra 1500 for the 9 isn’t worth it…because the things it has over the 8 I just don’t care about. My personal guess is that both will have the same firmware dpfeatures except for what hardware prevents…and tha5 the time lag between the two will diminish. And I would expect a Z9II bu late 24 or early 25 with more features…but for me the grip and weight would still most likely be the determining factor…as I don’t imagine that whatever additional features come in the Z9II I will care about. As I said… it’d eye AF is only slightly better than animal on the Z8…and not worth the weight or price difference for me…but that’s just me.

 

[wotan1]

If you go for the Z9 get a second battery. When I bought BH had a deal where they threw in a second battery with the purchase at no extra cost. I have never had a single battery run out in a day of shooting but you do need a backup. The Z9 battery is huge.

You will also need new CF Express Type B cards. The Z9 holds two of them. It is recommended you get either Delkin Black or Prograde Cobalt cards based on reviews. These cards are more expensive.

How high capacity you need depends on how you shoot. IF you are shooting single shot and taking your time the smaller cards will work. But if you start shooting 20fps RAW chasing flying birds around you could run into limits. The other day I was out chasing birds and experimenting with 20fps RAW shooting. I ended up filling a 165 GB card. Of course most of those shots ended up deleted.

I know that Steve Perry is big on high frame rate when shooting wildlife. See his videos n this site for why he prefers speed shooting to get more and better keepers.

Finally used 500 PF lenses can be found for around $1800.

 

[Ltgk20]

I understand the draw to better glass, and typically it's spot on, but the all over the frame tracking and subject recognition AF truly represents game changing capabilities. I don't shoot really high frame rates often, but when things are happening fast, 20 fps is a pretty big jump from 9. On top of that, as has been stated, everything I've read suggests the F mount glass performs better on the Z8/Z9 than on the native F mount bodies. If it were me, I'd be finding a way to get the Z9 and a better telephoto zoom and then pick up a long prime later. One other thing I'll mention, I've gotten completely hooked on silent shooting.

 

[EricKlees]

The disadvantages of the Z8 compared to the Z9 are…IMO…overrated unless those slight limitations matter to you. The SD second slot is a non issue since one can get 1.3TB CFe cards…and the overheating in video issue isn’t a problem unless you are filming Dr. Zhivago. Battery wise…Z8 batteries are a lot cheaper and smaller than Z9 batteries…and if you really need a bigger one Anker has a lot of solutions for that…I have never been limited by the Z8 battery. I would trade my Z9 straight up for a second Z8 and not think a second about it…because I have no use for the grip, don’t do portrait, like the lighter body, and the ‘disadvantage’ of the Z8 are irrelevant to my needs and wants. I do agree…in 2024 (in a few days)…buying F glass is not a good idea unless budget or specific crucial need is the bigger driv…..and I would never carry the size and weight of the 500/4 and the tripod it needs when the 600PF is so much lighter, doesn’t need a tripod, and all the other Z lens advantages.

Ok where to start. That 1.3TB card is $1550 bucks and you have to still by the new reader to get the speed out of it. Right there, your at the Z9 price. So why get a Z8 what gets features months later and likely not going to get all of them.

The hearing issues are in stills too using slot 1 or the type B card. It's not just in video and to the second shot with the SD card. But you'd spend $1500 on a benefit card that the camera couldn't benefit from teacher that a Z9 with significantly better battery life, better bird AF, no heating issues and get the firmware feature updates first and not ask of then will likely come to the Z8? That's not rational.

The battery difference is real. I have friends on a 3rd battery (2600 shots) at the end of a good shooting day and I'm still at 40% battery with 4000 shots.

The difference is irrelevant to you and that's fine. But the differences to a high speed action/wildlife/BIF shooter is real.

The lenses are different. I agree I'd never BUY an f mount lens once you have mirrorless. I own the 800PF and think people are crazy not to have one but f6.3 is different that fr if the guy shoots in early blue light or just before sunrise or after sunset or just wants to sit when it's cloudy out.

 

[Wade Abadie]

I wonder if you might consider a slightly different option….

Instead of either a Z9 or the 500 f/4, you might want to consider a Z8 (which is essentially a Z9 performance wise) and the new Z 180-600mm zoom. I’ve been shooting this combo for a couple months now and am thoroughly impressed with the IQ. I think the 180-600 is a hell of a lot of lens for the money ($1,700) and will run circles around your 200-500. Then you can still save for a used 500 f/4 if you feel the need.

For the record, I also own a 500 f/4 and love it. There is no substitute for fast glass in low-light situations. But it’s definitely not what I consider a portable lens (mine is the older “G” model which weighs 8.5 lbs). When I first purchased it, I schlepped it around on my shoulder all over the place. Now, the 180-600 has become my walking around lens, and the 500 is reserved for when I plan to be mostly stationary on a tripod.

Just my $0.02

 

[NorthernFocus]

Ok where to start. That 1.3TB card is $1550 bucks and you have to still by the new reader to get the speed out of it. Right there, your at the Z9 price...

That logic doesn't hold up. The card/reader is necessary for either camera if you plan to use CFE cards. The $1500 price difference doesn't go away. Plus with the Z8 there is always the option of shooting SD cards depending on what/how someone shoots.

So why get a Z8 what gets features months later and likely not going to get all of them.

Not everyone cares about all those features.

The hearing issues are in stills too using slot 1 or the type B card. It's not just in video and to the second shot with the SD card. But you'd spend $1500 on a benefit card that the camera couldn't benefit from teacher that a Z9 with significantly better battery life, better bird AF, no heating issues and get the firmware feature updates first and not ask of then will likely come to the Z8? That's not rational.

Not rational?

The battery difference is real. I have friends on a 3rd battery (2600 shots) at the end of a good shooting day and I'm still at 40% battery with 4000 shots.

Depends on how you shoot and how the camera is set up. Certainly doesn't have the battery life of the Z9 but a second battery weighs a couple of ounces and costs $70 or so. Not like the half pound $200 spare for the Z9.

The difference is irrelevant to you and that's fine. But the differences to a high speed action/wildlife/BIF shooter is real.

The lenses are different. I agree I'd never BUY an f mount lens once you have mirrorless. I own the 800PF and think people are crazy not to have one but f6.3 is different that fr if the guy shoots in early blue light or just before sunrise or after sunset or just wants to sit when it's cloudy out.

We all have different needs, different budgets, etc. And some of us even shoot the exact same subject matter with completely different equipment, technique, etc. And all those f-mount lenses didn't just turn to crap as soon as they started releasing Z-mount glass. Right now is a great time for people who haven't been able to afford big primes to pick them up for a reasonable cost. I shoot the 800PF and love it. But I often wonder if I shouldn't have picked up a used 500 f4E instead. Comparable size and more versatile with a TC in the bag.