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400mm F/2.8 Vs. 600mm F/4 - Which Is BEST For Wildlife And Bird Photography?
- Thread starter Steve
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I will be also happy to see all your gear not only the one you take in your trip. And why you decide to get one lens over another similar one. What changes you are planning to make for your equipment in 2025. I know I am curious, but I like to know about my favorite photographers their way of thinking about gear. But if this for you is too personnel, then I apologize for asking.
No more personal than talking about what's in a toolbox
One of the tricks is that I often don't take the gear I want to take, but instead the gear I need for a given project (book, video, etc). For instance, although I think the Z6iii is a great camera, it wouldn't be my first choice as a primary if I have my Z8/9 along on a trip. However, last summer I spent two months with just the Z6iii as my main camera since I was writing a book about it. Still, this is something to kick around a bit and see if I can come up with a video that people would watch.
Thank you so much for you quick response and thank you for everything! We appreciate all what you are doing in this forum and all the materials you are making to help us.No more personal than talking about what's in a toolbox
One of the tricks is that I often don't take the gear I want to take, but instead the gear I need for a given project (book, video, etc). For instance, although I think the Z6iii is a great camera, it wouldn't be my first choice as a primary if I have my Z8/9 along on a trip. However, last summer I spent two months with just the Z6iii as my main camera since I was writing a book about it. Still, this is something to kick around a bit and see if I can come up with a video that people would watch.
Lecycliste
New member
Neither. Most of my early work in the 2000s and 20 teens was with EF 400 f/4 DO IS and EF 500/4L IS V1. I usually had the EF 1.4X II on the 500/4L. I bought the 400/4 first, but even with the 1.4X, it wasn’t enough for solo bird closeups. The 500/4 with 1.4X filled the frame much better when all I had were the 8MP cameras like the EOS 1D II and EOS 20D that were the norm in digital photography’s early years. I couldn’t crop much so I had to get close for good bird detail back then. The 400/4 worked fine for a grizzly across a two lane highway in Jasper, but that and 500/4 bison closeups on Utah’s Antelope Island are somewhat rare situations.
Lately I’ve been using the RF 200-800mm f/6.3-9 IS and Lumix S 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6 ASPH. Zooms are a game changer for instant composition changes, and I‘m happy to not have to schlep the heavy 500/4 around. But in low light, f/4 or even f/5.6 make a difference.
The secret with any shy subject is to get close and shoot when they’re focused on an activity like feeding young or grazing. It also helps to visit the same location repeatedly and get to know where your target species hang out.
Lately I’ve been using the RF 200-800mm f/6.3-9 IS and Lumix S 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6 ASPH. Zooms are a game changer for instant composition changes, and I‘m happy to not have to schlep the heavy 500/4 around. But in low light, f/4 or even f/5.6 make a difference.
The secret with any shy subject is to get close and shoot when they’re focused on an activity like feeding young or grazing. It also helps to visit the same location repeatedly and get to know where your target species hang out.
maxxus46
Well-known member
I shot the 300GM for a few weeks with an A1. Great lens, but i had the 2x TC glued to it for wildlife, and no question the IQ did degrade. If one shoots at 300mm and 420mm @F4 often then this is a great lens. With the 2x TC though, IQ starts to take a hit as does the AF response. In the end I prefer my current 600pf over that combo because I didn't like having the 2x TC on 90% of the time. The 600pf is sharper than the 300GM with 2xTC attached, and less expensive. Furthermore, the difference been f5.6 vs f6.3 is negligible, a non issue. That's been my experience...YMMV
One day in a reasonable timeframe, I hope!
O
Well-known member
Excellent video Steve and fully understand it, However........
If i was a full on outright committed off the planet 24/7 deadly wild life photographer, i would just buy Both lens in a heart beat. That said while i do wild life i am not a full on hard shooter.
For my use, especially for what i do, the tool best suited is the 400 Tc F2.8,
often i am walking through a heavy canopy in the Forrest's, i usually sit and wait for subjects, often i don't need the distance covered with a 600mm and beyond, but that's me.
On the 400 if needed i can flick to 560mm F3.92, again i rarely need much more than 600mm anyway.
I can always add reach to the 400 but at times cant always move back.
With the benefit of crop-ability on 45mp and the optional Tcs the reach options is more than long enough for me.
But the real reason for the 400 is i can also have the dual purpose to do sports action, utilizing the tool far more, i cant with the 600.
With any F2.8 Lenses in the exotic area i shoot at F2.8 90% of the time, in the case of the 600 F4 its the same F4.
The 400 F2.8 F2.8 and versatility seems to fit my needs well, that absolutely doesn't take away anything from the 600 F4.
I rent either tool as needed, or for longer periods on rare occasions i borrow from a good colleague on the basis of (loose it or hurt it, i own it) which is perfectly fine.
Infrequent use for myself doesn't justify the cost for either Z400 or the Z600.
Most of my enthusiast mates and pro mates use the Z9 with the 600 FL, more than happy enough, the cost of the exotics or ROI here in Oz is hard to achieve for many photographers, see prices below.
That said at a shorter end i currently fill the many gaps often with the DSLR 300 2.8 VR II i have had for years, resale prices hardly makes it worth selling.
I am keen to see if the 300 F2.8TC comes out soon.
If i bought any of these exotics it would be the 400 F2.8 TC again (for my applications), 200mm is not a lot of sacrifice, F2.8 is not a lot of difference to F4 in terms of shallow depth of field compared to the 600 F4, the 600 with its extra length compresses the image more therefor F2.8 F4 appear very similar, but gee if in extremely lower light conditions...........be it psychosomatic or not F2.8 is so very handy.
The 400 Tc 600Tc are both stunning tools, both have a purpose - benefit unique to them, fitting that purpose to what you need is what really counts.
Steve's video on these Nikon 400 F2.8TC 600 F4 TC is simply excellent.
FWIW
The Ozi $ is $0.61 to 1 $ USD, pros don't have the work level compared to the USA, most rent as and if needed. Most are very happy with the DSLR 600 F4 generation on their Z9 Z8.
Only an opinion
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fcotterill
Well-known member
Yes, this conundrum for wildlife applies also to the 300 f4E PF together with all Nikon's iterations of their 300 f2.8.... All excellent optics, which fortunately pair well with the Teleconverters.
The shortcomings of the 300 f2.8 lineage for wildlife are most unfortunate, because many reviewers rate their 3D rendering as sublime with creamy bokeh. This makes them all superb portrait primes, when one can fill the frame.
I soon found out my 300 f2.8 was too short for most wildlife situations, except Animalscapes (where a zoom is better, parallel thread refers). A TC2 was standard on my 300 f2.8G VR II, but at the time this was the most affordable solution.
The 120-300 f2.8E SR Nikkor is rated among Nikon's best optics (judged across both the F and Z mounts) and handles TC's very well, but it weighs 3.25kg. should Nikon revisit this niche, hopefully it gets a radical weight reduction!
Lens choices for "animalscapes"
I'm trying to narrow down the best lightweight zoom lens for my preferred style of "animalscape" photos. Specifically, I'm referring to having a second body/lens that would accompany me when I'm out with my 500mm F/4 prime. The goal of this second lens is to be able to capture wide to mid-range...
bcgforums.com
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O
Well-known member
Your right, the DSLR 2 x TC III despite being better than the TCII does effect outcomes, with the mirror less TCs they seem to not be a issue as much if at all.
I have no issues with the DSLR Nikon 300 2.8 VR II, this tool is excellent, i have had outcomes with the 1.4 TC III that have been very acceptable.
Despite the 2 x TC III being a bit degrading, i find in good light and more so on lower resolution larger pixel pitch sensor cameras like a D4 D4s D5 D6 i have gotten very acceptable usable results, more so than on a D500 D7100 D800 D850, why, how who even knows.
For myself i will use whatever is available if needed, i rely on the composition to overrule any slight technical imperfections, if you know what i mean.
Most viewers don't look at something if its needle sharp or has Ca, they go for the connection and WOW.
Both sample images below are heavily cropped and down sized for this forum post.
The first image is 300 2.8 VR II with 2 x Tc III at high iso, i use this sample for camera club classes re discussing composition, connection. The front on shots of the same moments are on another hard drive somewhere.
The second shot is on the same lens 300 F2.8 VR II and 2 x TC III only a different camera, Its not a esoteric fine art state of the art shot but it evokes emotion, connects with a story, has a wow factor, the objective or brief was the connection of the riders name in a action moment with association - connection the surfboard brand name being, who is also the event sponsor, the objective was achieved, It had space to add any text for media purposes, again the image is also used for camera club classes.
There simple easy straight forward outcomes where the 2 x TC III actually got the job done.
I had lent the 600 F4 of mine to a dear friend in desperate need.
I even on one occasion broke the rule and had the 1.4 TC III on the 200-500, amazing, the light was coming from behind me right in the middle of the golden hour, it worked well even on the D850, the waves were lit up beautifully.
I find sometimes in good light if i go to F10 the 2 x TC III lifts the performance well. Its not Z TC standards of course.
Only an opinion
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@Steve Great info/video! One of these days I will add the 600 TC to my kit. Your Gura Gear backpack caught my eye, can I ask what size is the one in the video and do you recommend it?No more personal than talking about what's in a toolbox
One of the tricks is that I often don't take the gear I want to take, but instead the gear I need for a given project (book, video, etc). For instance, although I think the Z6iii is a great camera, it wouldn't be my first choice as a primary if I have my Z8/9 along on a trip. However, last summer I spent two months with just the Z6iii as my main camera since I was writing a book about it. Still, this is something to kick around a bit and see if I can come up with a video that people would watch.
Thanks, Steve. For those who can afford the cost and the weight of these 2 lenses this lays out the pros and cons pretty well. Bravo!
For me, the 600PF is at the top end of my strength limit for hand holding. Even then I lean on things more often than pure hand holding. My 800PF is beyond my hand hold limit due to weight. I just don’t have the strength any more. So, if I could afford these lenses (or could justify the cost for my hobby) I would not be able to hand hold either one. This adds additional weight as I would have to carry a mono or tripod. I am really happy with the images with the 600PF. I can’t say the same for the. 100-400 but that is my go to lens when the 600 is too much.
Thanks, again, Steve. I appreciate the comparison video and too wo be interested in a vid on 400, 600, 800 vs 400 TC and 600 TC as an academic exercise.
It's the 30L+
And yes, highly recommend - it's my primary bag. I don't use it everywhere, but I use it almost everywhere (I have a waterproof setup I put together for the bottoms of wet zodiacs).
You can pick it up from Gura Gear:
Gura Gear
Use code bcg10 for a 10% discount
I find the Sony 200-600mm lens quite useful for Wildlife albeit a bit slow at f6.3 but tack sharp in the center of frame. You hit the nail on the head when you said, "Fill the frame" that is the key - fire and maneuver to the best position with the most advantageous lighting. Also, 50 mega pixels help in my crop when used with denoise like Topaz. I want the 600 f/4 but frankly that's a lot of glass to tote not to mention the $$$$.
@Steve Thanks, it looks great! I will order using your code.It's the 30L+
And yes, highly recommend - it's my primary bag. I don't use it everywhere, but I use it almost everywhere (I have a waterproof setup I put together for the bottoms of wet zodiacs).
You can pick it up from Gura Gear:
Gura Gear
Use code bcg10 for a 10% discount
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Thanks!
That fits the 600TC? Its interior dimension states 14cm high which seems to be too small for the 600TC with hood reversed, the hood being about 170mm in diameter.It's the 30L+
And yes, highly recommend - it's my primary bag. I don't use it everywhere, but I use it almost everywhere (I have a waterproof setup I put together for the bottoms of wet zodiacs).
You can pick it up from Gura Gear:
Gura Gear
Use code bcg10 for a 10% discount
It's got some give. It's tight for sure, but with a little determination I make it work
As soon as I saw your video on Z6III and read Nikon marketing stuff I knew what I wanted it for. Indoor low light and some outdoor people stuff for church. Smaller file size, bright viewfinder makes things easier and faster. Except for tests I have used it birding but only when both of my Z9's were at Nikon for service.No more personal than talking about what's in a toolbox
One of the tricks is that I often don't take the gear I want to take, but instead the gear I need for a given project (book, video, etc). For instance, although I think the Z6iii is a great camera, it wouldn't be my first choice as a primary if I have my Z8/9 along on a trip. However, last summer I spent two months with just the Z6iii as my main camera since I was writing a book about it. Still, this is something to kick around a bit and see if I can come up with a video that people would watch.
@Steve, I watched both videos today, what is in my Bag for Costa Rica and Africa, and they both are very helpful. I don’t know why I did not pay attention to them before. Thank you so much both videos have all the information we need.
That CR one will probably see an update this year when I'm down there - I think we'll also do a little CR Q&A with Dennis and I - should be fun
SoCalRick
Well-known member
I compared both the GG 30L+ and the basic 30L (w/o laptop sleeve) models at their ability to fit the 600TC with hood. While I was able to fit the 600TC in both bags, the base 30L definitely had more volume available to fit the lens in, because the laptop sleeve in the 30L+ cuts into the space available in the main compartment of the backpack. So I decided if I didn't need to carry a laptop in my camera bag, that I was better off going with the base 30L (and figure out another way to bring my laptop along when it's required.
Here are a couple of my posts that I made on this subject:
https://bcgforums.com/threads/gura-gear-30l-reg-30-l-question.33634/#post-397029
https://bcgforums.com/threads/big-prime-camera-bags-backpacks.34046/page-4#post-399853
Thanks Steve, I saw that the CR was when we were still working with DSLR. But it does not matter it is still apply to mirrorless. I will be watching for your next CR and Galapagos videos and I won’t miss them when you will announce Them. Excellent ideas for Q&A with Dennis.That CR one will probably see an update this year when I'm down there - I think we'll also do a little CR Q&A with Dennis and I - should be fun
Yeah, we always have a little tougher time filling the workshops when it's only Dennis running them and we thought if we have a video where we were taking turns answering CR photo questions it would help. Dennis is a fantastic photographer and teacher and I think this might be a way to show that to people.
I did my second professionally led photo trip to Costa Rica (Osa Peninsula) in 2018 with Matt Kloskowski. Dennis was our local guide, along with two of his local colleagues. Dennis grew up on the Osa Peninsula and was a terrific photographer and guide. His ability to spot animals and birds was amazing. He also gave me excellent advice on my photography, especially in the field.
I hope to do one of your trips Steve, as I have learned a lot from you through this site, your books, and your videos. And I would like to meet you. I would also not hesitate to do a trip in Costa Rica led only by Dennis.