O
Well-known member
Get BOTH one for hiking the other for the business.
600mm PF or 800mm PF???
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O
Well-known member
There is a lot of quality information from very experienced people in this forum post, more than enough to guide you.
You have
choices - the tools are all very good and purposeful for what they do, its a matter of which tool you need for what purpose.
overthinking - sometimes clouds things unnecessarily for many of us especially when we have to many choices - options.
purpose - what % of your shots are currently super long distance, is getting closer and option.
light - are you a fair weather shooter, or do you shoot in all sorts of lighting conditions, low light overcast, dawn dusk.
weight - what is manageable or not now and later, if the 200-500 is to heavy then so will be the 800.
size - is bulk, for best outcomes a mono pod, tripod is essential be it a 800mm or 600 F4 Tc.
cost - is affordability a stretch or not, with resale cost in the event of changing should be considered. Can you go for the 600 F4 TC for the extra money, it will hold resale better than anything else. Handle low light better by far.
age - health and strength is it an issue or not.
options - there are many, rent borrow trial experience before you buy, even if you have to travel for a few days.
decisions - if you have 20 colored pens to chose from its harder than when you only have 2, i see camera gear as simply tools like tools for when i rebuild and car or truck engine.
cameras - 61mp in the Z7III with added stabilization may add 200mm of quality crop-ability to any lens if needed, i mean it doesn't have to be a Z9.
conclusion - Simple buy a lens if you don't like it sell it and buy another.
To me i would sell everything and buy the 400 PF with a 800PF its a very useful combination of tools, both tolerate a 1.4 Tc very well.
If you add a 61 mp sensor it will be a very us-full addition. The rest of my kit would be the 70-200 F2.8 FL and a 24-70 F2.8.
For the extra money the 600 F4 TC is a serious consideration especially in lower light.
The 800 PF is an amazing lens and i would even use it for things very close for that amazing compression perspective.
Only an opinion
"size - is bulk, for best outcomes a mono pod, tripod is essential be it a 800mm or 600 F4 Tc"
My quibble here is the word essential. Should probably be essential for some users since for many it is not.
I have never seen or handled a 600 f4 TC but since I used a 600 f/4E on a D6 and D850 without using a tripod or mono pod and got quite adequate images then I would expect the same could be done with the Z 600 f4 TC it is lighter.
I have never used a tripod or monopod with my Z9 and Z800pf except for some intial tests the first day I had the new replacement foot to see if the new foot would work and balance on mono gimbal and Flex Shooter Pro (lever) and it did.
Since then I have taken thousands of images with Z9/Z800pf without a tripod or monopod and many of them would have never been taken if I had been tied to a tripod or even a monopod.
O
Well-known member
Fantastic Ken, good to hear, i understand totally where your coming from, its just some people don't have the strength to hand hold, I do you do.
The OP indicated "Weight is also an issue as not young anymore, and the 180-600 is too heavy for hand holding"
200-500 is 2.2 kg, 200-500 is 2.3kg 800pf is 2.4 kg so it may be in there case at least a mono pod is essential or needed more so than for others to achieve the very best outcomes.
especially should the light be lower or the ISO is getting to high.
I mean we know a mono pod or tripod adds that bit extra sharpness and lets us use a little slower shutter speed and keeps the ISO at bay, LOL
i mean i even use a light mono pod with my DF D850 and 50 mm or 24-70 doing street come city photography, only because i want the very best outcome, its defiantly more noticeable especially if the light falls slightly.The 600 F4 Tc is so exceptional in low light, just amazing, the one thing to watch out for regardless of brand is generally in lenses with built in Tcs is that over time or heavy use its important to check the Tc alignment is keept in check, somthing experinced from time to time with the Canon built in Tcs, they sometimes need to be tweaked back on point after say 12 moths of hard use. That doesnt happen with everyone, its very much use dpendandt.
When i hike around Cradel Mountain with a 50mm or 24-70 on my DF or D3X or D850 i use a light carbon fibre mono pod, or more often super light small tripod.
But that doesnt mean other peopl do, my girlfrend laughs at me, she uses her phone and does macro and landscapes with stunning results.
Happy days
Yeah I was thinking more of a "laundry list" for anyone not the OP. If 180-600 to heavy for OP to hand hold then a bunch of lenses will be. Someday I will probably be restrained by age, injury etc. to needing support and I have a closet full of it in waitingFantastic Ken, good to hear, i understand totally where your coming from, its just some people don't have the strength to hand hold, I do you do.
The OP indicated "Weight is also an issue as not young anymore, and the 180-600 is too heavy for hand holding"
200-500 is 2.2 kg, 200-500 is 2.3kg 800pf is 2.4 kg so it may be in there case at least a mono pod is essential or needed more so than for others to achieve the very best outcomes.
especially should the light be lower or the ISO is getting to high.
I mean we know a mono pod or tripod adds that bit extra sharpness and lets us use a little slower shutter speed and keeps the ISO at bay, LOL
The 600 F4 Tc is so exceptional in low light, just amazing, the one thing to watch out for regardless of brand is generally in lenses with built in Tcs is that over time or heavy use its important to check the Tc alignment is keept in check, somthing experinced from time to time with the Canon built in Tcs, they sometimes need to be tweaked back on point after say 12 moths of hard use. That doesnt happen with everyone, its very much use dpendandt.
When i hike around Cradel Mountain with a 50mm or 24-70 on my DF or D3X or D850 i use a light carbon fibre mono pod, or more often super light small tripod.
But that doesnt mean other peopl do, my girlfrend laughs at me, she uses her phone and does macro and landscapes with stunning results.
Happy days
I actually anticipated using support more often on the 600 f/4E than I ended up doing, hence the mono gimbal and Flex shooter pro.When I first got into photography ... the Canon Rebel I borowwed from my wife needed help with any long lens I tried vibration reduction was non existent in most lenses back then and high ISO performance was not impressive. The D4s was my first nibble at good high ISO performance. The Sigma 150-600 sport was the first lens I had with good VR then the Tamron 150-600 G2.
Now we have Z9 with in camera stabilization combined with Z800pf VR and it is amazing how slow shutter speed can be. With advances in high ISO performance and simple easy to use noise reduction in post with Light Room Classic if needed my hand holding years keep getting pushed out. Even then ... I still lift weights 3 days a week for a reason
That and all that target rifle and shotgun shooting experience almost assuredly helps me instinctively support the lens/camera as efficiently as the situation allows.I have not done night photography, long exposure around water etc. or macro stuff for several years those were other needs for good tripods and good heads. If I ever wane in my infatuation with birding and bird ID photography I would bet my support stuff comes out of the closet.
O
Well-known member
Great feed back mate.Yeah I was thinking more of a "laundry list" for anyone not the OP. If 180-600 to heavy for OP to hand hold then a bunch of lenses will be. Someday I will probably be restrained by age, injury etc. to needing support and I have a closet full of it in waiting
When I first got into photography ... the Canon Rebel I borowwed from my wife needed help with any long lens I tried vibration reduction was non existent in most lenses back then and high ISO performance was not impressive. The D4s was my first nibble at good high ISO performance. The Sigma 150-600 sport was the first lens I had with good VR then the Tamron 150-600 G2.
Now we have Z9 with in camera stabilization combined with Z800pf VR and it is amazing how slow shutter speed can be. With advances in high ISO performance and simple easy to use noise reduction in post with Light Room Classic if needed my hand holding years keep getting pushed out. Even then ... I still lift weights 3 days a week for a reason
I have not done night photography, long exposure around water etc. or macro stuff for several years those were other needs for good tripods and good heads. If I ever wane in my infatuation with birding and bird ID photography I would bet my support stuff comes out of the closet.
I am not quite ready to re invest into all the new glass and prefer renting for a while longer, for several reasons, one being i am still looking to try and get back my MO JO for photography as Austin Powers would say.
The other is if and when i get back into it with passion will it be Nikon Canon Sony Fuji 35mm MF Drones, or Phones and drones, who knows.
My current stripped down basic kit serves me well. Like the Z9 but would maybe like something smaller and less overkill, more simple to use or relaxing to use.
The 800 is simply breath taking, loved doing close in shots with great compression, very useful tool.
The D4s i just love, lots of great results and memories.
Have a lot of respect for Tamron gear, soon to be in some cases Nikon in Tamron clothing LOl.
Only an opinion
Marcepan
Well-known member
How about sharpness comparisions 600 PF + TC 1.4 vs 800 PF?
Different sources and different opinion...
(Steve, Ricci, PL).
Generally (data from reviews) they are practically head to head (very strange for me) except F-stop of course.
Do You confirm this?
Different sources and different opinion...
(Steve, Ricci, PL).
Generally (data from reviews) they are practically head to head (very strange for me) except F-stop of course.
Do You confirm this?
O
Well-known member
600pf with 1.4 TC versus 800pf -
Sharpness wise the difference is very little with ever such a slightly better outcome from the 800 PF.
That said sharpness can also vary based on unit samples differing be it lenses or Tcs.
Sharpness comes more so from you mostly, not just the gear.
The tiny difference in sharpness between the two is the least important point, they are two different lenses or tools, one is 840mm at F5.6 with the TC1.4, the 800 is only at F6.3 at 800mm with the added potential of still using the 1.4 Tc taking you to 1120mm at F9.
The more important differences to consider between the 600 PF with a 1.4Tc versus a 800 PF really are -
size
weight
travel
agility
hand hold ability
what your mostly shooting
your skill sets, the largest difference in outcomes comes more from you
what camera your using 24mp 45mp in the future possibly 61mp
COST
to me, usually adding any TC be it mirror less or DSLR systems there is always a slight compromise or difference, just a little less so with mirror less TCs on native lenses.
Only an opinion.
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Marcepan
Well-known member
Alistair
Well-known member
The big difference between these two lenses in the field is that the 800mm is a fast lens (only 1/3 of a stop off the fastest way to get to 800mm) and the 600mm is a slow(ish) lens at 600mm and a very slow lens at 800mm. If you can forgo speed, the reward is smaller and lighter.
With regards to sharpness, from experience the 800mm produces very sharp images in the field. Especially in very fine detail. I don't doubt the charts that say the 600mm is sharper, but I doubt this will be apparent in the field.
With regards to sharpness, from experience the 800mm produces very sharp images in the field. Especially in very fine detail. I don't doubt the charts that say the 600mm is sharper, but I doubt this will be apparent in the field.
Anki
New member
I have the 800 5.6 and the 800 6.3, and many others. My golden rule is, you're never close enough. My other golden rule is use a tripod. I often want to be closer still. The one othe golden rule I have is stop settling for lenses I don't want. The 200-600 with a TC is not an 800mm, or even a 600mm prime. I have a lot of lenses I would never buy again. And they're not for sale. Get the great stuff and quit wasting your money (like I did).
Marcepan
Well-known member
For wildlife i definitely prefer lenses with F4 and F2.8 - I like fast action and good light (sunrise, sunset).
I considering 600PF, 800PF only for aviation - usually many light and only handhold shooting (absolutelly no tripods, monopods and often 6-8h shooting).
I considering 600PF, 800PF only for aviation - usually many light and only handhold shooting (absolutelly no tripods, monopods and often 6-8h shooting).
Dawatm
Member
I don’t care about the weight as much from a carrying/physical perspective. But, for many of us that travel to locations that require the use of small planes and have very real weight restrictions, a pound here and a pound there quickly make a difference. Reductions in length and volume also make a difference.
Oh…I do lots of that already. I average 175 miles a month on the bike and for almost 70 am still pretty fit…but hiking with a lot of gear ain’t the same as hiking with a lot of gear 20 years ago.
Per charts, they are both extremely sharp. Practically flat line at 1. The 800 has a very very slight drop-off very close to the edge of the sensor, most likely cannot be seen even with peeping. The 600 has a slight drop for the 30 line meridonal half way between the center and the edge of the sensor. Again, probably can't be seen except in the MTF apparatus. These are some of the sharpest teles made by anyone.
I have not used the 800. I found the 600 to be an amazing lens.
I have both. The 800 is a better lens overall at 800mm and above. Sharper and better background.
Calson
Well-known member
I know that from my years with the 600mm f/4 lens that the majority of my shots were taken with the lens and a 1.4x teleconverter for a 840mm f/5.6 lens setup. I bought the 800mm PF lens and cover the 600mm focal length with a 60-600mm for video and a 400mm plus 1.4x teleconverter for stills.
I was able to use the 500mm PF with a 2x teleconverter mounted on a monopod but it was far from being an ideal setup. I would expect the same with the 600mm PF and a 1.4x teleconverter.
I use Adobe Bridge to create a focal length summary for the photos in a folder and use this to determine my shooting profile. If I saw that most of my pictures were taken at 600mm then a 600mm PF would be worth considering. But for me the majority are at 800mm or at 300-500mm focal lengths.
I think in terms of the best combination of a prime and a zoom lens for my needs. In the past it was a 600mm prime (with teleconverters) and a 80-400mm zoom lens. With the Z9 cameras it is the 800mm PF and the 100-400mm (with a 1.4x TC much of the time). The 180-600mm is a viable option when they start to ship in sufficient numbers to be available to purchase.
I was able to use the 500mm PF with a 2x teleconverter mounted on a monopod but it was far from being an ideal setup. I would expect the same with the 600mm PF and a 1.4x teleconverter.
I use Adobe Bridge to create a focal length summary for the photos in a folder and use this to determine my shooting profile. If I saw that most of my pictures were taken at 600mm then a 600mm PF would be worth considering. But for me the majority are at 800mm or at 300-500mm focal lengths.
I think in terms of the best combination of a prime and a zoom lens for my needs. In the past it was a 600mm prime (with teleconverters) and a 80-400mm zoom lens. With the Z9 cameras it is the 800mm PF and the 100-400mm (with a 1.4x TC much of the time). The 180-600mm is a viable option when they start to ship in sufficient numbers to be available to purchase.
Skye.prf
Member
I sold my 500 PF and bought the 800 PF (just before the 600 was announced)… on the field, a lot bigger than expected… for travel, a lot bigger than expected… while the global performance is outstanding, just too big and almost not be used as much as expected… so, it is relative to your own use… great… but quite big. Many people said « small for a 800 mm »… true… but still big!
Before I got the 800 pf I rented it for a weekend. I was put off by the size and decided not to buy it at the time.
Later I saw some images shot from the lens on this site. I also went back and carefully reviewed the images from when I rented it.
Based on new information I changed my mind and bought it.
I have dealt with the added size and weight in the following ways:
1. I accept the advice of Steve Perry that when shooting at long focal lengths a tripod/gimbal is much more effective. I try to use a tripod whenever I am shooting with nearby vehicle access and the 800's weight and size is not at all a problem in those circumstances.
2. I have also found that the 800 is pretty easy to manage on a gimbal. Just sling it over the shoulder with lens attached. Make sure everything is tight and use a backup security strap. I lose some stability but it is much easier to get around.
3. Carrying the lens and camera is pretty easy using a Blackrapid strap.
4. The 800 can be used handheld for short periods of time
This is personal experience of someone in his 7th decade and new to long lens photography.
Later I saw some images shot from the lens on this site. I also went back and carefully reviewed the images from when I rented it.
Based on new information I changed my mind and bought it.
I have dealt with the added size and weight in the following ways:
1. I accept the advice of Steve Perry that when shooting at long focal lengths a tripod/gimbal is much more effective. I try to use a tripod whenever I am shooting with nearby vehicle access and the 800's weight and size is not at all a problem in those circumstances.
2. I have also found that the 800 is pretty easy to manage on a gimbal. Just sling it over the shoulder with lens attached. Make sure everything is tight and use a backup security strap. I lose some stability but it is much easier to get around.
3. Carrying the lens and camera is pretty easy using a Blackrapid strap.
4. The 800 can be used handheld for short periods of time
This is personal experience of someone in his 7th decade and new to long lens photography.
MatthewK
Well-known member
I'm with you, Pierre, and I think a lot of us former D500+500PF shooters were expecting a natural transition to the 800PF, but the reality is the 800PF is a much more different experience than anticipated. Don't forget, the jump from DSLR to ML cameras was a major change as well that required a change in how our cameras operated. To me, the 500PF and 800PF are not comparable at all, and that took a while to digest.
Ergonomically the Z800 is the most efficient lens I have ever owned. My 600 f/4E was touted for it's lighter weight etc.. but it was still a logistical challenge that had me work with Think Tank and MrJan gear to customize a rapid access carrier for the field. Even carrying it in the vehicle with camera attached or not was challenging.
Along came the Z800 on my Z9. I finally have the longer focal length I always wanted compared to the various 600mm f mount glass I had and far better than my 500pf was and in an amazingly ergonomic package. It comes with a n extremely useable case and that is how I carry it in the back seat of my suv with the Z9 in place. In the field I am on the move birding in all sorts of habitat and terrain and carry the Z800/Z9 combo baby carry style with a Black Rapids Strap attached for those times when I need my hands free.
One size does not fit all, for me 600mm is not enough focal length for others it will be.
I am 75 and I hand hold the 800 pf 100 % of the time. I did initial tests with it and 1.4TC on a tripod at home 5-1-22 and have not used it since. I also do not use the 1.4TC since going to DX with a one button toggle of the memory set button on the Z800 gets met to an effective 1200mm with plenty of resolution on the Z9 when that little bird in the bush requires it.
2 above should read monopod not gimbal.
macwalter
Well-known member
All good advice either way it seems to me. I am waiting today for the 600pf which I have been mulling over for months. I have the 500pf and it is a very good lens but I find myself preferring the 400 f4.5 due to its better feel and although the specs say otherwise I find it to be at least as sharp with the 1.4tc. I walk and only handhold and the 800pf is not a small handhold-able option. I also think overall 600mm is the sweet spot for birds in general and for me I can do small birds and birds in flight which I practice constantly. At around 3 lbs the 600pf is about perfect size wise and although it will not be as sharp as the 800pf when you use the 1.4tc you will be able to get good results in good light. I used the 400 f4.5 with the 2x tc at Bosque last year and although this is not a recommended option I was pleased with some of the shots I got. With practice you can handhold longer focal lengths and this gives you so much more freedom in the field. The accuracy of the z8-9 and the newer z glass makes a tremendous difference compared to my old beloved d850 and d500. There is simply no comparison For action especially. If you are concerned about size and weight as I am, the 600pf is the better compromise.
Calson
Well-known member
The 800mm PF works for shooting hand held only because I am using it with the Z9 camera with it subject and eye detection and there is no need to do a manual override of the autofocus as with my DSLR cameras and lenses.
I have added a telescoping ifootage monopod with a tilt head to me kit for use with the 800mm PF. This monopod allows me to adjust the height with one free hand while holding the 800mm and camera with my other hand.
I have added a telescoping ifootage monopod with a tilt head to me kit for use with the 800mm PF. This monopod allows me to adjust the height with one free hand while holding the 800mm and camera with my other hand.
Skye.prf
Member
Just arrived from Costa Rica with my 800 PF. In those 2 weeks, I took the best pictures I never been able to get... Food it very big when I Used it the first time, I got accustomed to use it faster than expected. BUT!!!! now... I am planing a trip to Africa.... 800 may be just too much lens... I sold my 500 PF because Bought the 100-400... 400 to 500 is not a big deal... but now... I am stuck with 400 (I have the 1.4) and the 800mm... Conclusion... if you track birds, 800! no doubt in my mind... 600 for more versatility? For now... I don't know what I will bring next fall... I do not plan to by another lens! (just adding that I bring my tripod based on the size of the lens... almost never use it!)