Am I the only one who prefers DSLR?

[Ken Miracle]

I spent all day Saturday and Sunday out shooting wildlife with my new 500PF. I currently have a Z6 and D850 (sold the D500 a few weeks ago) and the Z6 never came out of the bag.

I have planned on selling the Z6 and upgrading to the Z7II with grip when it starts shipping however I am starting to second guess that decision.

Now I am thinking sell the Z6 and buy a D6. I am also interested in the D850 replacement that seems to be coming next year. I would either replace the D850 with the update or add it as an additional body.

I only have one native lens for the Z system (14-30f4) and would rather upgrade it at some point to the new 2.8 version. I am not invested in Z glass yet and would be more interested in the Z when the 100-400 and 200-600 come out over the next two years. I also wonder what new Z bodies will bring to the table.

I just really like looking through a DSLR, I like the feel, the buttons just everything about it. Frankly the only thing I don't like is not having 100% of the viewfinder focal point selection. Add in animal eye tracking like an R5 and I would be more willing to put up with a mirrorless camera viewfinder.

Am I stupid to invest in a D6 and the D850 replacement in 2021? Should I just not do anything and wait and see?

I mostly do wildlife, macro, landscape and just getting into astro photography (50 f1.2 coming out for Z is exciting which makes me consider just keeping the Z6).

I have a good bit of F mount glass that I wouldn't be in a hurry to have to replace. I am exactly one year into digital photography (I have bought all the cameras and lenses in the last 12 months) and in 2021 I plan on adding a 600 f4 of Nikon, Canon or Sony with a matching body.

Current gear:
Nikon D850 and Z6
Nikon 14-24 f2.8
Tamron 24-70 g2 f2.8
Nikon 105 micro
Nikon 70-200 f2.8 E FL
Nikon 300 f2.8
Nikon 500 PF
Nikon 200-500 f5.6
Nikon TC1.4 II
Nikon TC2 III

So am I nuts to keep investing in F mount with a D6 or should I just get the Z7II with grip (PS I would like an action camera that is good in low light, thinking mostly BIF and in non covid times shoot some local HS football)?

I appreciate your feedback!

I debated for some time read a lot of stuff here and elsewhere. The only mirrorless I have tried was an older fuji that worked great for a travel snapshot camera in Israel, Greece, Turkey and Italy and my wifes Z50 (with ftz and a Tamron 18-400 married to it) and she loves it for what she does. But I am a wildlife photogrpaher (90+ percent) with birds and birds in flight being the primary subjects. Given what I shoot I bought a used D6 from B&H last Friday. Fedex says it will be here tomorrow. So pretty committed to DSLR for now, with 2 D500's, D850 and now a D6 on the way.

 

[eaj101]

On the issue of F-mount lenses on the FTZ... there's a lot of comment about how bad the FTZ is, and Steve has actually measured an AF lag on some lenses between a DSLR and a Z, but... That's not my experience. For every lens I have that doesn't have the screw drive AF (and there's a strong rumor Nikon is coming out with a new FTZ that has the screw drive) I have found functionally no difference in using an F lens on a DSLR or a Z. Yes, the long tube addition is awkward and ugly, but it works and the F lenses on the Z7 behave no differently than they do on the D850 (strike that. I HATE the fact that I can't override the auto-switch on DX lenses). I've seen no indication, rumor or otherwise, that Nikon has brain-damaged the FTZ to make the performance of F lenses worse on the FTZ. The adapter is an empty tube that moves the mount to the appropriate distance for F lenses and seems to otherwise just pass signals from body to lens. As far as I'm concerned the huge library of Nikon F lenses available on the Z is one of the strengths of the Zs. (As for that matter Canon has done with what look like a great set of adapters from the EOS lenses to R bodies). Personally, I have no interest whatsoever at this point in replacing a 300/f2.8, 300/f4, 500/f4. 500/f5.6, 600/f4, 200/micro and PC-E lenses with either Z lenses or Sony lenses (assuming Sony ever got around to making them). And I can use them on my DSLRs and mirrorless. Frankly, I think that's Sony's challenge: to make the huge stock of existing Canon and Nikon lenses not part of the discussion. But you can take great pictures with all of them anyway.

 

[Ado Wolf]

Yes, Steve did measure the focus time and it was noticeably slower with the FTZ Adapter.

I compared my 200-500 + 300 PF on the D7500 (my camera) vs Z50 vs Z6 and noticed a considerable "lag" as well as "hunting".. which resulted in missed shots which I nailed with the D7500. It might not all be due to the FTZ, but also due to the AF system in the Z cameras.

What I didn't like as well is that my 200-500 became font end heavy due to the light weight of the Z and added distance of the FTZ.. became harder for me to stably hand-hold the 200-500 Zoom.

I do not believe that Nikon purposely "sabotaged" the FTZ adapter.. and it is still a good adapter.. but I rather stick to my DSLR till a professional DX Mirrorless body comes out. Sony just introduced their version: the A1..

 

[anthonyrobinson]

I have to disagree with eaj101. Unlike Steve, I didn't objectively measure anything, this is my experience of 'how it all felt', I have no experience with the gen II Nikon.

I have a Z 70-200 f2.8, recent got rid of my F-mount 70-200 f2.8, I used them both fairly extensively with my Z7, which I have owned from the day it has come out, and my recently sold Z6. I also heavily used a 300 f2.8 vr II with my d850 (and have done for many years) and with the Z cameras+FTZ when the Z camera bodies were released. There's no question that AF was better on the d850 with the 300 than the Z6 or the Z7 with the FTZ+300, I had attributed that to the camera rather than the adaptor. I was optimistic after the AF firmware update, because that did make the Z's a bit faster, but still a long way off the D850 - for AF-C on moving targets.

When the Z mount 70-200 was released, I instantly bought it, it was noticeably quicker than the F mount with FTZ, and I then got rid of my F monut 70-200, my keeper rate with the native lens was significantly better, but still a fair way off the D850 with the F mount.
The F mount 70-200 is no slouch, proven by its history and the fact it worked perfectly on my d850, so I can't believe that the AF speed difference is due to the Z lens vs F lens, therefore the FTZ is the only culprit, 'confirmed' in my mind by the fact these results replicated on the 300 f2.8 vr ii on Z6/7+FTZ vs d850, there's no other explanation.

I have therefore concluded the D850 and F mount lens >> Z mount with native glass >> Z mount with FTZ, measured subjectively via my semi-subjective benchmark of 'keeper rate' and my very subjective benchmark of 'how frustrated am I with my gear'.

 

[R.Philip]

Does B&H provide any details of expected delivery dates on items like this?

I just contacted B&H by email. I asked about a delivery date. The response, "I am sorry but Nikon does not have a firm shipment date on that lens." I mentioned my trip in May and the response, "I guess you should have it by then, but can't guarantee it."

 

[ruley74]

I just contacted B&H by email. I asked about a delivery date. The response, "I am sorry but Nikon does not have a firm shipment date on that lens." I mentioned my trip in May and the response, "I guess you should have it by then, but can't guarantee it."

Thanks pretty ordinary. When I got that response here in Oz I emailed then called Nikon Aust direct about the delivery. I ordered from my local dealer in Nov and original was told 3-6 weeks... I asked for a status update at the 4 week mark and that's when I got the unknown response. I then emailed Nikon Aust direct with and they responded with the same but opened the door for "any further info call or respond.... so I called. Explained my disappointment and asked that they contact Japan to get a production timeline etc. (being a Japanese company they are the king of planning and lean manufacturing) to there credit they got back to me and said they were expecting a shipment early Jan and mine was the first order to satisfy. 7th Jan it turned up in store so in the end it was just over 6 weeks from order date.

I think the problem is they're coming out in such small batches and if you're not high on the regional order list it may take a few batches to satisfy the order...maybe anyhow.

 

[R.Philip]

Thanks pretty ordinary. When I got that response here in Oz I emailed then called Nikon Aust direct about the delivery. I ordered from my local dealer in Nov and original was told 3-6 weeks... I asked for a status update at the 4 week mark and that's when I got the unknown response. I then emailed Nikon Aust direct with and they responded with the same but opened the door for "any further info call or respond.... so I called. Explained my disappointment and asked that they contact Japan to get a production timeline etc. (being a Japanese company they are the king of planning and lean manufacturing) to there credit they got back to me and said they were expecting a shipment early Jan and mine was the first order to satisfy. 7th Jan it turned up in store so in the end it was just over 6 weeks from order date.

I think the problem is they're coming out in such small batches and if you're not high on the regional order list it may take a few batches to satisfy the order...maybe anyhow.

Thanx Ruley....I started the ball rolling. My email to Nikon,
"I ordered a Nikkor 600mm f/4e from your dealer, B&H Photo. I have been in touch with them about this lens since early December 2020. I made plans for a once in a lifetime wildlife photography trip in May of this year and have been waiting on this lens. B&H's site says the item is on backorder and should be available in 2-4 weeks. Unfortunately, it has already been 10 plus weeks with the same message. In sales, expectations set by a retailer should be exceeded rather than continually unfulfilled. I'm very disappointed with Nikon at this point and am reconsidering my two decade plus faithful patronage of your company. From information I read on line, I am not alone in this regard. I would like this lens. If it is not forthcoming, your competitors clearly have comparable products; some of which outperform Nikon's. However, since all my photography equipment is Nikon, I prefer staying with Nikon. Thank you for your consideration. "

 

[R.Philip]

Im struggling with this as well... When I look at that new Sony 600mm lens and see it weighs 6.68 lbs I really wonder if Im going to be a Nikon shooter in the future... add in the fact that the Sony camera does 20fps....

How many frames per second is enough? At that rate, IMO I believe you will have too many images that are only minutely different. It will cause you to spend MORE time in front of the computer trying to cull through images to end up with the best ones. I prefer being out shooting.

 

[DavidT]

How many frames per second is enough? At that rate, IMO I believe you will have too many images that are only minutely different. It will cause you to spend MORE time in front of the computer trying to cull through images to end up with the best ones. I prefer being out shooting.

Looks like 30 is the new 14. Personally there is never enough. I don’t have to shoot at 30fps but I can. My car will do 100+ MPH, I don’t drive it that fast but I can. There are times and subjects that extra FPS helps capture the exact moment, expression, peak action that you likely won’t consistently get with a lower FPS camera. I would much rather have options then limitations.

 

[StefanSC]

My car will do 100+ MPH, I don’t drive it that fast but I can.

When I was a kid, the thing that impressed me most on a car was the top speed.
Then, in my early twenties, it was the 0-60 time.

Now I learned that what actually matters is useful performance, things like the 60 to 80 time in 5th gear, that you use everyday...

In my experience, Japanese camera makers are still kids . Focused on big numbers but missing the useful performance part ...

For example, I'd rather have a camera that can shoot at 10 fps but can buffer the 1-2s before pressing the shutter than the one that goes to 20fps... ideally, the buffered shots being at a different shutter speed than the one the camera is currently shooting.

 

[DavidT]

When I was a kid, the thing that impressed me most on a car was the top speed.
Then, in my early twenties, it was the 0-60 time.

Now I learned that what actually matters is useful performance, things like the 60 to 80 time in 5th gear, that you use everyday...

In my experience, Japanese camera makers are still kids . Focused on big numbers but missing the useful performance part ...

For example, I'd rather have a camera that can shoot at 10 fps but can buffer the 1-2s before pressing the shutter than the one that goes to 20fps... ideally, the buffered shots being at a different shutter speed than the one the camera is currently shooting.

That already exist but it’s 60 frames not 1-2. It’s the Olympus E1X.

 

[FB101]

I have to disagree with eaj101. Unlike Steve, I didn't objectively measure anything, this is my experience of 'how it all felt', I have no experience with the gen II Nikon.

I have a Z 70-200 f2.8, recent got rid of my F-mount 70-200 f2.8, I used them both fairly extensively with my Z7, which I have owned from the day it has come out, and my recently sold Z6. I also heavily used a 300 f2.8 vr II with my d850 (and have done for many years) and with the Z cameras+FTZ when the Z camera bodies were released. There's no question that AF was better on the d850 with the 300 than the Z6 or the Z7 with the FTZ+300, I had attributed that to the camera rather than the adaptor. I was optimistic after the AF firmware update, because that did make the Z's a bit faster, but still a long way off the D850 - for AF-C on moving targets.

When the Z mount 70-200 was released, I instantly bought it, it was noticeably quicker than the F mount with FTZ, and I then got rid of my F monut 70-200, my keeper rate with the native lens was significantly better, but still a fair way off the D850 with the F mount.
The F mount 70-200 is no slouch, proven by its history and the fact it worked perfectly on my d850, so I can't believe that the AF speed difference is due to the Z lens vs F lens, therefore the FTZ is the only culprit, 'confirmed' in my mind by the fact these results replicated on the 300 f2.8 vr ii on Z6/7+FTZ vs d850, there's no other explanation.

I have therefore concluded the D850 and F mount lens >> Z mount with native glass >> Z mount with FTZ, measured subjectively via my semi-subjective benchmark of 'keeper rate' and my very subjective benchmark of 'how frustrated am I with my gear'.

I have been trying to find a comparison of AF between the D780 (mirror up so focusing on sensor) and Z6 + FTZ but I can't find any. Since the on sensor AF of both cameras are supposedly identical, with the same single processor in both cameras, any difference would have to be attributed to the FTZ, not any inherent challenge between F lenses and Z body. If those two perform identically, then the observed issues come from Nikon's on-sensor AF algorithms that aren't optimized yet for F lenses.

I wish somebody had tried that test under controlled conditions but I can't find one anywhere.