Ideal resolution for Nikon FX and DX cameras

[RichF]

I have noticed a lot of discussions about a high MP Z8, interest in a Z9-lite APS-C camera, ...

For those interested in these cameras, what resolution would you like to see. Keep in mind that an FX camera has 2.25 x the area as a APS-C camera, hence 47 MP FX camera would give a 21 MP DX crop. If Nikon made a 30 MP APS-C camera, that would an equivalent sensor "spacing" as a 67 MP FX camera.

As we all know as we increase MP, diffraction limits have a lower aperture values (lower F numbers) and S/N decreases. As point of reference the Canon R7 is 32.5 MP with a 1.6 crop. That is equivalent to roughly the same sensor density as an 83 MP FF camera.

 

[John Navitsky]

Ricci said on recent video ( this one, i think

) that 45mp is kind of a sweet spot

 

[RichF]

Ricci said on recent video ( this one, i think

) that 45mp is kind of a sweet spot

which implies 20 MP DX is the sweet spot

 

[Nimi]

which implies 20 MP DX is the sweet spot

I don't think they'll sell a single one at that resolution. Minimum is 26, and my guess iss 33 is the right number.

 

[tclune]

I don't think they'll sell a single one at that resolution. Minimum is 26, and my guess iss 33 is the right number.

20 MP didn't hurt the D500 sales.

 

[Nimi]

20 MP didn't hurt the D500 sales.

2016. January 2016. Seven years ago.

 

[RichF]

I don't think they'll sell a single one at that resolution. Minimum is 26, and my guess iss 33 is the right number.

If the produce a DX sensor at 26-33 MP (say 30) that means they could also produce a 67 MP FX sensor. An 80 MP FX sensor would yield a 35 MP DX sensor.

 

[Nimi]

If the produce a DX sensor at 26-33 MP (say 30) that means they could also produce a 67 MP FX sensor. An 80 MP FX sensor would yield a 35 MP DX sensor.

Nikon doesn't make sensors. Most likely they'll use the new IMX671 sensor from Sony. Stacked, backside illuminated, 26mp.

 

[RichF]

Nikon doesn't make sensors. Most likely they'll use the new IMX671 sensor from Sony. Stacked, backside illuminated, 26mp.

As I understand it, they may not manufacturer their sensors, they engineer them and outsource the production.

 

[Nimi]

As I understand it, they may not manufacturer their sensors, they engineer them and outsource the production.

Nope, that's a myth. They buy off-the-shelf Sony sensors, like everyone else except Canon. Nothing wrong with that, Sony makes the best sensors for most applications. Fuji is a special case; Sony arranges some layers differently for their Xtran sensors, but the chasis is the same.

 

[NorthernFocus]

If the produce a DX sensor at 26-33 MP (say 30) that means they could also produce a 67 MP FX sensor. An 80 MP FX sensor would yield a 35 MP DX sensor.

Producing the sensor is only part of the battle. Getting that much data off the chip and processed is a big part of the challenge.

Nikon doesn't make sensors. Most likely they'll use the new IMX671 sensor from Sony. Stacked, backside illuminated, 26mp.

Now that Sony has surpassed Nikon in camera market share I wonder whether Nikon will continue to go elsewhere for sensors.

As I understand it, they may not manufacturer their sensors, they engineer them and outsource the production.

Historically that's been the case for the high end products. Not necessarily for the entry level cameras.

 

[Erik N]

Imaging Resource had a very interesting article a few years ago about Nikons sensor design (not the hardware).

 

[Nimi]

Now that Sony has surpassed Nikon in camera market share I wonder whether Nikon will continue to go elsewhere.

There is nowhere to go... Canon likes the closed-ecosystem they have, Samsung doesn't have large sensors that get around Sony's IP, Onsemi is exclusive to Arri, Tower doesn't have the IP. Atomos have been teasing with a new sensor, so maybe?

Nothing wrong with using Sony, even if they can't get the best that's reserved for Sony, and focusing on the processor, reliability and optics.

 

[Tom Reynolds]

I don't think they'll sell a single one at that resolution. Minimum is 26, and my guess iss 33 is the right number.

I think wildlife, particularly bird photographers like the extra MP so they can crop.

 

[Nimi]

I think wildlife, particularly bird photographers like the extra MP so they can crop.

Fuji just put out a camera with a 40mp APS-C sensor as well as pixel-shift that takes it to 160. The question, to which I have no answer is the DR and inversely the noise.

The most exciting new sensor out there, certainly the most expensive is the ALEV 4 which is also APS-C (well, S35) and only 15mp. Those are giant pixels which produce a 17 stop DR. The ALEV 3 and its derivatives (2 and 3 fused together) already dominate the Oscars and the 4 is supposed to be that much better.

 

[Tom Reynolds]

The SONY IMX671 sensor is used in the Fuji X-H2S is outperformed by the Sony Quad Bayer sensor in the OM-1. The Quad Bayer configuration is used by OM Systems to achieve greater autofocus accuracy and better low light performance.

 

[fcotterill]

Imaging Resource had a very interesting article a few years ago about Nikons sensor design (not the hardware).

Bob Newman a published emeritus professor of computer engineering was rather scathing of this article. But what ever the biases it is interesting and is relevant. Links to dpr threads in this thread

Nikon Z8 Rumour or Truth ? ?

Really -- I have 2 Z9 bodies and so do each of the folk I shoot with. As I understand it Nikon has shipped over 40,000 Z9 so far (source DPReview LS). At least some 11,000 of these have been delivered in EEC/UK and far far far more to the US/Canada. I also have 400/2.8TC, 800/6.3 and all the...

bcgforums.com

These articles linked) summarize what's only partially known / surmised outside of NDA'a and the shroud of secrecy cloaking this hightech industry. For example, the D850 sensor, besides its Sony IMX-309-AQJ "silicon-core" has its dedicated microlenses. Complex assemblage with multiple inputs testifying to the long and costly R&D. The Z7 and Z7 II are built on the similar Sony IMX-309-BQJ. Nikon probably used the Sony company who fab's sensors, but Nikon invests considerable R&D in customizing its own sensors on licenced designs (Sony Sensor Division or Tower Jazz etc), which are optimized for efficiency with its EXPEED processors, made by Socionext, who recently advanced to TSMC’s 5-nanometer Technology.

Nikon appears to invest substantial resources into s in house design of its sensors. The evidence is also clear in the many patents it registers for sensor technology [this Hogan article also considers future sensor resolutions] This patent for example in March 2021: advanced stacked sensor with a global shutter.

List of all Nikon DSLR cameras and their sensor manufacturer/designer - Nikon Rumors

A reader linked in the comments (thanks El Aura) to this dpreview thread that contains a list of all Nikon DSLR cameras and the corresponding sensor manufacturer/designer. I always wanted to create such list for reference, so here it is – feel free to post in the comments section if any of the...

nikonrumors.com

And it's instructive to read the posts by User bobn2 - Prof Bob Newman - who explains some of what is entailed between the companies designing their cameras and fabs etc

Upcoming Nikon Z9 Sensor by TowerJazz (now Semiconductor)??: Nikon Z Mirrorless Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

Expert news, reviews and videos of the latest digital cameras, lenses, accessories, and phones. Get answers to your questions in our photography forums.

www.dpreview.com

Also see Thom Hogan's takes on the recurring question 'Who Makes Nikon's sensors?'

Who Will Make Nikon's Next Sensor? | Thom Hogan

Who will make Nikon's flagship camera sensor?

www.zsystemuser.com

 

[tclune]

2016. January 2016. Seven years ago.

And after Nikon had settled on 24 MP as the norm for the rest of their DX line. Entry-level photographers seem obsessed with which number is bigger: more experienced photographers seem to have a more nuanced appreciation of these things. Or so ISTM.

 

[Nimi]

And after Nikon had settled on 24 MP as the norm for the rest of their DX line. Entry-level photographers seem obsessed with which number is bigger: more experienced photographers seem to have a more nuanced appreciation of these things. Or so ISTM.

That's true. But Nikon wants to sell cameras and the best available APS--C is 26.1, so to answer the OP question, that's what they should go with.

We know that senaor size is secondary to architecture which has gone through profound changes recently and pixel density.

 

[RichF]

Has anyone heard any more info (rumors) about Sony semiconductors being spun off from the rest of Sony?

 

[Tom Reynolds]

At 20 MP Nikon would be competing with OM Systems. The OM-1 is currently selling for about $2K and OM Systems has a wide range of M43 lenses to pair with the camera. While it is true that an APS-C 20MP sensor has advantages over a M43 20MP sensor, I think that fact will be obscured by the lighter weight m43 lens lineup.

I am even questioning if a 24 or 26MP APS-C camera is enough of a differentiation to move a Nikon DX camera out of the m43 competition space. Canon introduced a 32MP 1.6 crop and I think that is telling.

 

[John Navitsky]

not sure if that’s a problem if it performs like a true d500 successor paired with s-line glass [ETA: as an actual d500 shooter i never felt like i needed more MP. but i can totally see they may need to up it simply as a keeping up with the Joneses kinda thing]

 

[Tom Reynolds]

not sure if that’s a problem if it performs like a true d500 successor paired with s-line glass

John,
I would have bought that mirrorless D-500 and continued with choosing between a 300 (450 FF equ) and a 500mm lens (750 FF equ), hopefully new S glass equivalents.

And that would have been a mistake.

What I should have bought is a mirrorless FF D-850 and could have one lens, a S-glass 500mm that is 750mm (FF equ) in crop mode.

What I did buy is a 20MP camera that does everything the Z-9 does, often better and pair it with a 100-400mm (200-800 FF equ) lens. That combo weighs less than 5# at a cost of less than $3500. Now, true, that 100-400 is not in the S-glass category but I could purchase a 150-400 F/4.5 that is 300-800 (FF equ) and still have only a 6-6.5# rig.

What I see is that a DX camera sans DX lens only has a slight weight advantage. In the past the D-500 had a f/s advantage over an ungripped D-850. Assuming that advantage goes away the market space for a DX 20MP camera is small indeed.

My bet, no DX Z-9 or 32+MP.

Happy Thanksgiving,
Tom

 

[Nimi]

Assuming Nikon is staying with crop sensor, the choice is clearly the new 26.1 APS-C from Sony. This is the first APS-C sensor from Sony in I think 4 years. At the same time, there is renewed interest in the format, they just showed off the 40MP APS-C in the Fuji, so maybe there is mid-30 MP sensor coming. The Canon version is physically larger, not sure whether it has higher pixel density (lower pitch).

Another approach to a lower the MP is to combine sites, as Sony did for its 12mp full-frame. It's the same sensor as the A1 except they combine 4 sites into 4 pixels to give it the low light performance.

 

[tickle_my_nikon]

Nikon answered your question with the Z9, which is their current flagship. They could have stayed with a similar megapixel to the D6. They could have gone somewhere in between. Instead, they used 50~, and are cropping down to:

45.