Nikon 800PF Review For Wildlife Photographers (Official Discussion Thread)

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The monumental difference between the two systems you give is the price. Using prices from a well known retailer here in the Uk.

z9 + 800 PF = 11598
a1 + 600GM + grip and battery + 1.4tc = 19441
a1 + 600GM + 1.4 TC = 18977
Not sure how/why but like most equipment related threads this one turned into a Sony discussion. But since we're there I have to point out that the above comparison doesn't take into account a real world/all in cost of ownership, particularly of switching systems. From a Nikon perspective in USD the economics are more like:

1) purchase Z9 = $5500
2) some months later purchase 800mm PF = $6500

All in cost = $12k spread over several months

Comparable Sony kit:

1) purchase Sony a1, 600mm f4, 1.4x TC = $20,550
2) some months later forfeit half of personal net worth

All in cost = half personal net worth plus $20.5k

It is true that the Sony kit does have the benefit of 5 percent more reach, 1/3 stop of light, and almost certainly quicker delivery. :)
 
The reason you pay the extra is for f/4. That to me is worth every extra penny spent. And of course there is the A1 which for me is another step above the Z9 in a number of ways.

That said, the Nikon combo is incredible value if 800mm and f/6.3 fits you shooting style and subjects at hand. And despite my strong preference for the A1, the Z9 is still a very capable camera. Still in my top 3 or 4 that I've owned and certainly my top Nikon. I'd buy the 800PF as a secondary lens but certainly not my primary birding lens...not where I live. I've tried running f/5.6 and f/6.3 as my primary lens and was always left wanting for f/4 or f/2.8.
I totally agree that you're paying for the f/4 max aperture but the post was about the two ways to get to 800mm. Either use the Nikon 800PF or use a 600mm with a 1.4 TC which gives you a max aperture of f5.6, just one third of a stop above the 800PF which I don't think is worth the considerable extra cost. I was pointing out the price difference.
If that f/4 max aperture is important to you then of course the choice is made for you but you're 'only' getting 600mm not 800mm. To get to 800mm with the Sony system is very expensive currently. I can't see Sony bringing out an 800mm lens at the Nikon price point but you never know.

For my photography I currently use a 500PF and 95% of the time I have a 1.4TC on which gets me to 700mm at f/8. So I reckon an 800 f/6.3 will give me 2/3rds of a stop extra light, 100mm extra reach and I would hope to get an improvement in focussing perfomance by using a native Z mount lens instead of an adapted F mount lens with a TC at a price I can afford.
 
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Not sure how/why but like most equipment related threads this one turned into a Sony discussion. But since we're there I have to point out that the above comparison doesn't take into account a real world/all in cost of ownership, particularly of switching systems. From a Nikon perspective in USD the economics are more like:
To be fair it took 6 pages this time lol
 
Try that in YNP, in the middle of the Lamar Valley which is wide open except that there is a 10,000 foot mountain range to your east. The big yellow ball shows up and hour later. All the action the people with a 400 f2.8 and 600 f4 are photographing you are watching though you 8X binoculars.
Well I'm fairly sure I'll never be taking pictures in YNP but you never know for sure I suppose.

I'm in the UK shooting mainly in the Lincolnshire/Norfolk/Suffolk and Cambridgeshire areas. Most of it is dead flat so when the big yellow ball appears I'm good to go with 500pf and a 1.4tc at f/8. F/6.3 is going to be even better :)
 
...I'm in the UK shooting mainly in the Lincolnshire/Norfolk/Suffolk and Cambridgeshire areas. Most of it is dead flat so when the big yellow ball appears I'm good to go with 500pf and a 1.4tc at f/8. F/6.3 is going to be even better :)
If you wait for the big yellow ball you shoot, what, three days per year?
 
quick calculation using specs from a big box retailer's website:

z9+ 800 PF = 3725 g
a1+200-600 + 1.4x = 3019 g
a1 + 600 GM + 1.4x = 3544 g

the 800 PF is impressively lightweight but the z9's heft makes the total package a shoulder-bruiser (and the a1 + 600 GM + 1.4x is f/5.6).

840mm/5.6800mm/6.3
A1Z9
Price$6,498$5,499
Weight737g1340g
Grip Price$398$0
Grip Weight290g0
Extra Battery Price$78.000
Extra battery weight85g0
1.4tc price$548.00n/a
1.4tc weight167gn/a
600gm price$12,998n/a
600gm weight3040gn/a
800pf Pricen/a$6,499
800pf weightn/a2385g
$20,520$11,998
4319g3725g
 
Some shooters may find a Net weight of lens + Camera above 3 or 3.5kg to be too much handhold for sustained results. There is restriction on using the 800 PF with a Z6 or Z7. No further comment on the weights of other mount systems, except to say that it is hard to believe anyone can be serious this is the criterion to incur all the overheads of switching systems! To avoid an extra 600-500g of camera weight, throw away access to some interesting and above all unique Nikon fit lenses.

The dictum hasn't changed in decades - Marry the Lenses, Date the Cameras

Lastly, there's the news from Nikon HQ, which officially confirms their 2021-2025 strategy prioritizes pros/hobbyists to "Deploy advanced features from the Z9 across the lineup". Presumably this implies new Z cameras with stacked sensors to handle the Z9 software and imaging rates. A D850 equiavlent? the much rumoured Z90? Z7 III?

Personally, I hope a Z6 III with a 24mp stacked sensor and expanded menus will fill the lowlight niche rather snugly. A Z6 ready to shoot currently weighs 675g NET.

Not sure how/why but like most equipment related threads this one turned into a Sony discussion. But since we're there I have to point out that the above comparison doesn't take into account a real world/all in cost of ownership, particularly of switching systems. From a Nikon perspective in USD the economics are more like:

1) purchase Z9 = $5500
2) some months later purchase 800mm PF = $6500

All in cost = $12k spread over several months

Comparable Sony kit:

1) purchase Sony a1, 600mm f4, 1.4x TC = $20,550
2) some months later forfeit half of personal net worth

All in cost = half personal net worth plus $20.5k

It is true that the Sony kit does have the benefit of 5 percent more reach, 1/3 stop of light, and almost certainly quicker delivery. :)
 
Not sure how/why but like most equipment related threads this one turned into a Sony discussion. But since we're there I have to point out that the above comparison doesn't take into account a real world/all in cost of ownership, particularly of switching systems. From a Nikon perspective in USD the economics are more like:

1) purchase Z9 = $5500
2) some months later purchase 800mm PF = $6500

All in cost = $12k spread over several months

Comparable Sony kit:

1) purchase Sony a1, 600mm f4, 1.4x TC = $20,550
2) some months later forfeit half of personal net worth

All in cost = half personal net worth plus $20.5k

It is true that the Sony kit does have the benefit of 5 percent more reach, 1/3 stop of light, and almost certainly quicker delivery. :)

This is absolutely true and probably why Sony comments popped up. If you went from Nikon to Sony recently and still own Nikon gear, like me, you probably owe it to yourself to consider options and what’s the right system for one’s needs going forward.
‘And that Nikon set-up at $12k makes a very compelling case since it’s the same price as the600 f:4 I am gearing up to buy. Should I run 2 systems (it would be the same price), go back to Nikon or go all-in Sony as I was planning to do before this announcement (well actually the announcement didn’t change my views but Steve’s rave comments had me stop and think).

So I have been pondering for the past few days, helped in that endeavor by catching Covid for the first time and being out of commission for 3 days (when I am not sleeping or coughing my chest out, re-watching all of Steve’s videos has been quite therapeutic too). So hopefully you’ll humor me as I share my fever-induced meandering.

I have decided (i think) to stay my course for now but this reasoning only applies to me - and it boils down to this : I really love the A1, the more I use it, the more right it feels. I started using it (minus the grip) for street photography 2 weeks ago with the baffling Tamron 28-75 f:2.8 G2 and it really has blown me away. The ability to see the effect of my b&w tweaked profile in real time in the viewfinder is truly game changing and being able to use zebras to expose faces right is truly liberating in that kind of use. And the body is as small and light as my Xpro1 while the Tamron zoom is as good as primes from 35mm to 75mm (and really close from 28 to 35mm).
‘I knew the A1 worked great for my wildlife needs but I am shocked by how versatile it is for all my other needs - something the Z9 unfortunately wouldn’t do as well (size, weight, no zebras and the rebranded Tamron zoom is a G1 which is not optically on par). The Z9 ergonomics didn’t work well for me when I tried it but I could live with them for wildlife photography if I had to - but for street photography, the A1 is amazing

I also like the 3rd party lens options for Sony but Nikon has done a great job with their affordable primes so although a factor, it’s not a major one.

My last reason is actually that I have never been comfortable with focal lengths 800mm and up - although Steve’s video makes a very compelling case about the VR performance, I have to wonder how much of his success comes from his being… well, Steve… as opposed to coming from the lens. Finding a small BIF in the sky with an 800mm lens remains a tall order for me, whether PF or not. And the more time goes, the more I like to include environmental elements in my shots. So I am not sure the 800mm lens would actually make me more successful for my type of shots. And in a pinch, the 600 f:4 turns into a handy 840 f:5.6 with hardly any loss.

Or maybe it’s the fever making me delirious and tomorrow I’ll wake up having placed orders for all Nikon gear and not remembering it at all (maybe I can use that excuse to order the 600GM right now…)
 
Some shooters may find a Net weight of lens + Camera above 3 or 3.5kg to be too much handhold for sustained results. There is restriction on using the 800 PF with a Z6 or Z7. No further comment on the weights of other mount systems, except to say that it is hard to believe anyone can be serious this is the criterion to incur all the overheads of switching systems! To avoid an extra 600-500g of camera weight, throw away access to some interesting and above all unique Nikon fit lenses.

The dictum hasn't changed in decades - Marry the Lenses, Date the Cameras

Lastly, there's the news from Nikon HQ, which officially confirms their 2021-2025 strategy prioritizes pros/hobbyists to "Deploy advanced features from the Z9 across the lineup". Presumably this implies new Z cameras with stacked sensors to handle the Z9 software and imaging rates. A D850 equiavlent? the much rumoured Z90? Z7 III?

Personally, I hope a Z6 III with a 24mp stacked sensor and expanded menus will fill the lowlight niche rather snugly. A Z6 ready to shoot currently weighs 675g NET.
The Nikon 500 PF has singlehandedly kept me in the Nikon camp to date. I've been testing the Z9(my first Z) all the while continuing to consider the switch to Sony. But with the release of the 800 PF and the prospect of the 400 down the road it looks like I'll stick with Nikon. In the short term I'll carry on with the D850 as second body and hopefully a viable MILC alternative won't be too far away. Though I'm still contemplating the a1/200-600 as a second system rather than waiting for a future Nikon Z. Used a1 prices are creeping downwards :unsure:
 
I can just imagine Canon shooters sitting back and laughing at the Nikon and Sony guys going back and forth here. It used to be Canon and Nikon folks going at it and now it seems to be Sony against everyone else. There certainly seems to be a lot of "justification of gear purchase" on this forum. Probably because of the large investments some make for birding. It seems like every post becomes a "Sony vs" debate. Nothing wrong with being a happy Nikon, Sony or Canon (or whatever) shooter and leave it at that. I love talking about gear as much as the next guy but sometimes you can't continue to read some of these threads because of the back and forth it becomes something totally different than what the thread was posted for. Some threads ask for debate but most don't but end up that way anyway. No it isn't wanting to live in echo chamber. Sometimes you genuinely just want to comment on the thread subject and not get into debate why I or you decided it was best to shoot with something different. I mean how many "that's why I left/switched ....." posts are left every day here? I can't tell you how many times I talk to my screen saying "I don't care" when reading posts. LOL Come on guys, there are many reading this just happy to have a camera never mind $50,000 in gear.
 
If you wait for the big yellow ball you shoot, what, three days per year?
Lmao! A little more than that.

If the light is really bad then I don't tend to bother with photography. Happy to go for a walk and scout out some new areas or just bird watch with my binoculars.
I'm really very fortunate in that I'm retired and my time is my own. Photography is just a hobby now and not a living so I don't care if I get pics or not. It's bliss really :)
 
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No question the high cost of the alternatives to reach 800mm is a big factor for many (let's not assume it is for all).

For myself opportunity cost is a big factor: not only the financial opportunity cost, which a competent economist could easily calculate given assumptions about future interest rates and/or rates of return, but for myself the cost of lost opportunities now, waiting for delivery of suitable equipment some vague time in the future. What photographs will I miss due to inadequate equipment, and what is the long-term value of those photographs? The time since the 600 GM became available, and especially the year since the a1 deliveries began, has been easily my most productive in 50+ years and there's no question I'd have missed many of these photos waiting for less costly alternatives from other popular brands. I don't buy roadmaps, promises or rumors. I buy tangible equipment, delivered.
 
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I think being a little overly enthusiastic about your gear brand is expected on any forum. However, please keep in mind that the reason so many choices exist is because everyone has different needs. For some Sony is better, others Nikon, still others some other brand. Enthusiasm for a brand by someone shooting something different than you are isn't an automatic attack on your gear decision. They simply have different priorities. Also, in my experience, the overlap in capability is enormous between brands. Give me any brand and I'll get pretty much the same shots I get now.

That's just my long-winded way of asking everyone to keep it civil - I have a feeling this thread is teetering on the edge.
 
I think being a little overly enthusiastic about your gear brand is expected on any forum. However, please keep in mind that the reason so many choices exist is because everyone has different needs. For some Sony is better, others Nikon, still others some other brand. Enthusiasm for a brand by someone shooting something different than you are isn't an automatic attack on your gear decision. They simply have different priorities. Also, in my experience, the overlap in capability is enormous between brands. Give me any brand and I'll get pretty much the same shots I get now.

That's just my long-winded way of asking everyone to keep it civil - I have a feeling this thread is teetering on the edge.

The fascinating thing to me with the 800pf announcement is that I can’t recall your being that worked up about any gear, ever. Not the D6, not the 500pf, not any of the z bodies (including the z9), not even the A1. The 600 f:4 GM is the only piece of equipment I can remember your showing some emotion about, and that wasn’t even close to your reaction to the 800 pf. By the end of video #3 I thought you were ready to date the lens :)

At a minimum that should mean everybody stop and pay attention, whether one shoots Nikon, Sony, Canon, Fuji or Olympus. Nikon has achieved something unexpected and surprising with this lens and as you say, thinking about what it means in each of our individual context doesn’t lessen anybody else’s choices.
 
I have to wonder how much of his success comes from his being… well, Steve… as opposed to coming from the lens.
Pretty much all of it I would say. His last video showing his shots and the methods behind them blew me away. That shot of the Heron was outstanding. To set yourself 4 or so hours and turn in a set of pictures as good as they were takes a lot of skill and experience. The lens? Well I guess it helped a bit lol
 
Lmao! A little more than that.

If the light is really bad then I don't tend to bother with photography. Happy to go for a walk and scout out some new areas or just bird watch with my binoculars.
I'm really very fortunate in that I'm retired and my time is my own. Photography is just a hobby now and not a living so I don't care if I get pics or not. It's bliss really :)
Anchorage isn't exactly on the Sun Coast. I couldn't find anything listing sunny days per year for Norfolk, UK. But I did find data claiming 1610 hours per year of sunshine. Presumably measure in hours because it's rare for the sun to shine all day? At any rate whoever it is that tracks such things claims that in Anchorage we get per annum 61 sunny days, 65 partly sunny day, and 126 days that the sun at least makes an appearance. Not additive of course. Oof. Now I'm depressed :( Need to spend less money on camera equipment and more on travel :rolleyes:
 
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Back to the 800 PF - this being the official designated thread AND before it gets bogged down as what derailed the Official Z9 thread ;) .....

The main handicap out in the wild, is it is very long niche prime. So one has to carry at least 1 extra shorter lens; ideally the 100-400, or something similar with HIgh IQ, decent speed.....and ideally some flexibility, which is the primary role of a zoom. The 500 PF is another option. This is also another hopeful potential in the 400 PF. Weight is the overriding factor when hiking. {Edit...} Weight being less constraining in a vehicle and/or hide, ideally I have the 180-400 TC and 70-200 f2.8E on a D5 and D850.

The higher ideal would be a 300-800 f4/6.3 Zoom weighing 2.5kg :D

Back to practicalities, the key plus of this 800 PF is its light weight with excellent optical qualities to get out to 800. I also greatly value the expended options to go to 1120 f9 and even 1600 f13 with the ZTcs
 
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