Anjin San
Well-known member
Thanks…I'm still thinking about going that way or adding AF On to the Fn.
Nikon Z9/8 Hybrid Handover Question
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fcotterill
Well-known member
Yes, this works seamlessly transferring active focus outwards, indeed as you describe from C1/C2 to 3D and then releasing the shutter button (or AFOn button). Many of us routinely shoot the Z9 this way using an "outwards" handover, which leverages focus persistence from tighter user-control over to camera-control.
The issue appears going the other way - an "inward" handover from camera-control to user-control. One factor that break Focus Persistence is if there's the slightest gap in keeping both buttons depressed at the same time. Custom setup is the second factor.
Consider an example of "inward" handover..... First grabbing focus with AutoAF mode (or 3D) on a running mammal or flying bird out in the open. It then moves rapidly across the camera into vegetation. This is where a "inwards" handover to a tighter C1 or C2 mode hinges on the correct Custom setup. In order for Focus Persistence to work, AutoAF or 3D must be set on BBAF (or Release) to maintain the AF Cursor position through the "inwards" switch. If AutoAF or 3D is set on Fn1 and one tries to handover to C1 or C2 set on BBAF, well then inheritance of the AF Cursor position fails (even if both buttons are pressed together). Basically focus persistence does not work. What we see is the active focus point jumps to where it was set previously - and typically off the subject.
This distinction can be dismissed as academic but here be dragons with respect to:
1. Executing the Custom setup without the slightest gap in AF activation during the handover, and;
2. Understanding the constraints on which AFmodes can be set to respective controls for "inwards" Focus Persistence to work.
If I lost it with 3D I'd start over, probably with C1/C2 on the shutter button (or possibly SP/Fn2 in your example of being in vegetation).
And yes both buttons need to be pressed for a brief period both button to ensure proper hand off (tho setting 3d+AF On eliminates the need to also keep holding the shutter halfway but again only after a proper handoff).
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You make a good point about making sure which buttons you have configured in order to take advantage of focus persistence. It has nothing to do with outward/inward handoff. It's merely a matter of how the buttons work. Try an outward handoff the same way that you describe with both focus area set up on Fn buttons. Doesn't work. For focus persistence to work there has to be a seamless transfer from one focus mode to the next. In order for that to happen the configuration has to be for one mode to take over for the other without a break. To achieve that one button has to override the other. There are only two ways to do that. AF-ON overriding shutter or any of the other buttons overriding AF-ON. Doesn't work with two buttons with equal rank because there's not a smooth(i.e. instantaneous) transition.
Thanks, this is the way it's working for me. You boiled it down nice and succinctly.
This is the best explanation I have seen! Can you comment on how the persistence setting impacts effective hand offs.
Secondly, are you saying that one sound not set alternate button choices like Fn1 to AF ON+ a different AF AREA MODE and simply continue pressing the AF ON button?
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Glad it helped, Karen. Not sure what you're asking on the persistence setting. It's either off or auto(on).
I use AF Area + AF-ON. If you use shutter button focus it's a mute point. But with +AF-ON it frees up you thumb so you can release BBF to rest you grip(nice if you have small hands). My hands aren't particularly small but I can barely reach the Fn buttons. Also if you have +AF-ON programmed you can use whichever focus mode you have assigned to the button independently. IOW rather than only using that button for handing off focus you can use it as your primary focus if the situation calls for it.
Just before this trip I changed my custom settings to the ones you use..... For the reasons you mentioned. Trip doesn't start until tomorrow. Looks like we MAY have nice weather next week. Fingers crossed....
A tale of 2 cams...
On the Z9 my fingers land on Fn1 & 2 comfortably. I can consistently push one or the other while maintaining half press on the shutter. And neither of those two Fn buttons are assigned to my primary AF mode. So I got used to not using the +AF On setting.
On the Z8, that's not the case so I'll probably be switching both cams to the +AF On setting. It really doesn't detract from anything and the buttons respond priority wise as you posted above regardless of whether the +AF On choice is made or not.
Have fun on your trip!!!
Another benefit of using +AF-ON is that most of the time when using wide area you don't even have to engage focus before switching to 3d. If subject tracking is going to work(i.e. if it recognizes the subject) the white tracking box shows up before you actually press the focus button. If you have 3d +AF-ON set for your Fn button you can just go straight to the Fn button and it will pick up tracking where the subject detection box is. So really no "hand off" is even needed. No need to even press the first focus button.
Yes. In my case I'll have auto area AF + AFon assigned to Fn1 and 3d tracking + AFon assigned to the AF-ON button. If I capture a subject using Fn1 there is no need for me to use the shutter (usually set to C1 or C2) and I can go straight to 3D.
In my case SD is always on...but I can turn it off using RSF Hold assigned to the LFn1 button
It’s not so simple when dealing with single point. I just spent an hour figuring it.
My goal is this:
Pressing nothing = shutter should be set to Auto area. This helps before any half press to determine if the AF gets the eye with auto area. If it doesn’t, we need single point, AND a way to hand it over to 3D. This is where it gets complicated.
What we want, is a funnel.
Auto area - - or - - single point
Handover to
3D
The ONLY combination I found so far, is setting the shutter to Single point
BBF to Auto Area and FN1 to 3D.
That takes away the stand by AF on auto area because I must press BBF to get to auto area.
Settings the shutter to auto area, BBF to 3D and FN1 to signal point, there is no way to ‘handover’ the single point to BBF set to 3D
I don't think handoff works with single point. Create a custom 1x1 area box for C1 or C2 and try using that - it will handoff.
fcotterill
Well-known member
No longer use Single-Point, I agree C1 1*1 is a far better option, for important reason that it uses Subject Recognition
Yes, good point, I forgot to mention SD....
fcotterill
Well-known member
As mentioned earlier in this thread, researching this topic of focus persistence, I find contradictions in the official documentation, which is vague on the details.
According to Nikon Tech Advice, Focus Persistence is not supposed to work outwards from tighter spatial AF area to 3D.
and Thom H is vague on precise details in his Z9 blog and his ebook
I've yet to read a clear explanation online specifying what controls work - or do not work - to get Focus Persistence. Steve has done the best job that I've read IMHO, with a neat illustrated example in his Mirrorless AF (pp 274-5) and Z8/Z9 books. His examples are comparatively straightforward, and incidentally he is using single point mode on the heron
There's more going with the settings in how Handover(s) work between AF modes. It's not as clearcut as made out - there's more going on under the hood than Focus Persistence. One reason seems to be Subject Recognition is an important variable with/besides actual Focus Persistence, and many Z9 (and likely Z8) users keep SR on most subjects.
These gaps is important to get beyond as to how Hand Over works. So further testing is needed.
According to Nikon Tech Advice, Focus Persistence is not supposed to work outwards from tighter spatial AF area to 3D.
and Thom H is vague on precise details in his Z9 blog and his ebook
I've yet to read a clear explanation online specifying what controls work - or do not work - to get Focus Persistence. Steve has done the best job that I've read IMHO, with a neat illustrated example in his Mirrorless AF (pp 274-5) and Z8/Z9 books. His examples are comparatively straightforward, and incidentally he is using single point mode on the heron
There's more going with the settings in how Handover(s) work between AF modes. It's not as clearcut as made out - there's more going on under the hood than Focus Persistence. One reason seems to be Subject Recognition is an important variable with/besides actual Focus Persistence, and many Z9 (and likely Z8) users keep SR on most subjects.
These gaps is important to get beyond as to how Hand Over works. So further testing is needed.
Viseguy
Well-known member
I'm confused, it seems as if you are suggesting that AF areas or modes can be assigned to the shutter button.
You can assign any AF area mode to the shutter button. Just push the side button and dial in what you want.
Good point. I knew that, Will ask my wife the reason she wants single point instead of 1x1. Maybe it’s a misconception.
But the question remains, if setting 1x1 to FN would hand over to BBF?
Will try it now.
Viseguy
Well-known member
I understand what you are saying, but its not a custom assignment of a button, its more of a global or desired base setting adjustment of AF. Its subject to change when other assigned buttons are used, such as a reset button. Shutter button just works with whatever is currently the "ambient" or global desired.
FN would not hand over custom boxes or single point to BBF.
I noticed an interesting thing. When I point the 3D to the tip of my black shoe against a white wall. I can recompose it all over the frame, but it will sometimes change from a green box to an orange box while in transit/or working hard?! Then back to green.
I’m waiting for my capture card to record all this. Its interesting information.
I’m waiting for my capture card to record all this. Its interesting information.
No, it's not a custom setting per-se.
I can confirm and stand corrected. I didn't remember that correctly. I did try assigning 1*1 to the shutter it does hand off to BBF (3D).