Nikon Z9/8 Hybrid Handover Question

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I think its kind of funny, as I work through the settings and button assignments to see what works for me, with interspersed sessions of taking dog pics in the back yard, my settings are getting closer and closer with each iteration to what Steve recommended in the first place. I'm also amazed at the pics I'm getting with the Z8. With my d850, taking pics of rambunctious dobies playing might result in 10% or less keepers, with the z8, I bet better than 80% are in focus. Really liking this camera, only 6 weeks till Masai Mara......
 
It’s not so simple when dealing with single point. I just spent an hour figuring it.
My goal is this:
Pressing nothing = shutter should be set to Auto area. This helps before any half press to determine if the AF gets the eye with auto area. If it doesn’t, we need single point, AND a way to hand it over to 3D. This is where it gets complicated.
What we want, is a funnel.
Auto area - - or - - single point
Handover to
3D
The ONLY combination I found so far, is setting the shutter to Single point
BBF to Auto Area and FN1 to 3D.

That takes away the stand by AF on auto area because I must press BBF to get to auto area.

Settings the shutter to auto area, BBF to 3D and FN1 to signal point, there is no way to ‘handover’ the single point to BBF set to 3D
It's easy to set up a custom C1 or C2 AF Area and make it a 1x1 box which is basically a single point that still supports Subject/Eye Detection and handover to other modes including 3D. That's how I have my FN2 button set up on my Z9 and it works fine to give the precision of a single point that still supports the more sophisticated AF functions.
 
It's easy to set up a custom C1 or C2 AF Area and make it a 1x1 box which is basically a single point that still supports Subject/Eye Detection and handover to other modes including 3D. That's how I have my FN2 button set up on my Z9 and it works fine to give the precision of a single point that still supports the more sophisticated AF functions.
From a FN you cannot handover. FN has the highest priority.
 
I understand what you are saying, but its not a custom assignment of a button, its more of a global or desired base setting adjustment of AF. Its subject to change when other assigned buttons are used, such as a reset button. Shutter button just works with whatever is currently the "ambient" or global desired.
That's a point that I've thought about making several times in this thread.

There really is no AF Area Mode assigned to a shutter release half or full press. The shutter button is basically the same as AF-ON when left in its default mode and just activates the AF system for whatever is set globally for the camera and whatever control is assigned to Focus Mode Selection. The other buttons including AF-ON or something like FN1 or FN2 can be set to both an AF-ON function alone or optionally with a specific AF Area Mode or just to an AF Area Mode without activating the AF system but the shutter release is just a way to activate whatever AF Area Mode is selected globally for the camera.
 
From a FN you cannot handover. FN has the highest priority.
Ahh I see your point. I use the custom 1x1 AF Area on FN2 OR I use 3d on FN1 but do not handover from one to the other. Point taken.

That said you can set the global camera AF Area Mode to a custom 1x1 C1 or C2 mode and then handover from that to 3D or Auto assigned to a control as long as the custom 1x1 area is set as the camera global mode via the Focus Mode Control or an other button set to that function. But of course that means you have to select that custom 1x1 area and don't get it with a single button press.
 
That's a point that I've thought about making several times in this thread.

There really is no AF Area Mode assigned to a shutter release half or full press. The shutter button is basically the same as AF-ON when left in its default mode and just activates the AF system for whatever is set globally for the camera and whatever control is assigned to Focus Mode Selection. The other buttons including AF-ON or something like FN1 or FN2 can be set to both an AF-ON function and a specific AF Area Mode or just to an AF Area Mode without activating the AF system but the shutter release is just a way to activate whatever AF Area Mode is selected globally for the camera.
True, that default is set by the i-menu or photo-shooting setup.
 
Ahh I see your point. I use the custom 1x1 AF Area on FN2 OR I use 3d on FN1 but do not handover from one to the other. Point taken.

That said you can set the global camera AF Area Mode to a custom 1x1 C1 or C2 mode and then handover from that to 3D or Auto assigned to a control as long as the custom 1x1 area is set as the camera global mode via the Focus Mode Control or an other button set to that function. But of course that means you have to select that custom 1x1 area and don't get it with a single button press.
Exactly!!! And that has a big drawback. Because, its always good to have the main AF (shutter AF) set to auto area or a bigger custom box. It’s not practical to assign a single or 1x1 as the default.
 
That's a point that I've thought about making several times in this thread.

There really is no AF Area Mode assigned to a shutter release half or full press. The shutter button is basically the same as AF-ON when left in its default mode and just activates the AF system for whatever is set globally for the camera and whatever control is assigned to Focus Mode Selection. The other buttons including AF-ON or something like FN1 or FN2 can be set to both an AF-ON function and a specific AF Area Mode or just to an AF Area Mode without activating the AF system but the shutter release is just a way to activate whatever AF Area Mode is selected globally for the camera.

Yes, I was taking a shortcut. Whatever you set using the focus mode button and command dials is what is set on the shutter (and in my case I usually have it set to C1 or C2). It's what I have dialed in, not assigned per-se (altho setting it that way is a form of assigning it..... :rolleyes: 😊)
 
As mentioned earlier in this thread, researching this topic of focus persistence, I find contradictions in the official documentation, which is vague on the details.

According to Nikon Tech Advice, Focus Persistence is not supposed to work outwards from tighter spatial AF area to 3D.
and Thom H is vague on precise details in his Z9 blog and his ebook

I've yet to read a clear explanation online specifying what controls work - or do not work - to get Focus Persistence. Steve has done the best job that I've read IMHO, with a neat illustrated example in his Mirrorless AF (pp 274-5) and Z8/Z9 books. His examples are comparatively straightforward, and incidentally he is using single point mode on the heron

There's more going with the settings in how Handover(s) work between AF modes. It's not as clearcut as made out - there's more going on under the hood than Focus Persistence. One reason seems to be Subject Recognition is an important variable with/besides actual Focus Persistence, and many Z9 (and likely Z8) users keep SR on most subjects.

These gaps is important to get beyond as to how Hand Over works. So further testing is needed.
Here's what I've got regarding Focus Point Persistence. Please pardon any of my over-simplications and long windedness, as I wanted this to be useful to any skill level.

Setup:
1) Your default AF-area mode must be one that allows the camera to move the active focus point, so any Wide-area or 3D or Auto-area. Note that the Wide-area must be actively tracking via Subject Detection. If Wide-area doesn't have a subject (light gray box) the "persisted" point will be the center of the Wide-area, effectively serving no purpose.
2) The AF-area mode that you are "persisting" to must be assigned via Custom Setting Menu "Custom controls (shooting)" (f2 on Z9 fw 4.0) to [AF-area mode] or [AF-area mode + AF-ON]. All AF-area modes are able to be on the receiving end of the Focus-point persistence, even though the manual states "...to a mode in which the focus point is selected manually."
3) Custom Setting Menu "Focus point persistence" (a7 on Z9 fw4.0) must be set to "AUTO"

Engaging:
1) The camera must be actively auto-focussing and tracking using the default AF-area mode from Setup step 1 above. So:
1a) shutter button half pressed if Custom Setting Menu a6 [AF Activation] is set to "ON"
-or-
1b) you've assigned a custom control with role "AF-ON" and you are holding that custom control/button down.
*Note again that the "persisted" point when using a Wide-area will be the grey box if a subject is found, or the center of the Wide-area if no subject is found.
2) While maintaining active auto-focussing, press and hold the custom control/button from Setup step 2 above. Note that once you've pressed this button you are free to release the half shutter / AF-ON button from Engaging Step 1 above.

Disengaging:
1) Release the custom control/button from Setup Step 2 above. Deliberately or accidentally ;)

General notes:
1) The focus point position will return to it's last set position once Focus Point Persistence is disengaged unless you also manually move the focus point via Sub-selector or Multi-selector while Focus Point Persistence is engaged. Handy trick if you want to move the focus point position, just give it a quick bump before disengaging Focus Point Persistence.
2) I think there is some confusion between "Handing off" and Focus Point Persistence, but the latter is a one way street following the steps above. You aren't able to "persist" a focus point going the other way. There can be an illusion it's happening, perhaps if you're using a Wide-area on Fn button and are tracking the subject at the center of the Wide-area so that when you release the Fn button to go to the default AF-area mode the focus point does't move (since it is at the center of the Wide-area box, which coincidentally is where you had the subject) and therefore the target under the new focus point is good enough for the camera to appear like it never hiccuped. But it's not guaranteed and can cause hunting. Do this quick experiment (probably easier with shutter-button focus): Set single point to your default AF-area mode. Set a 19x1 Custom Wide-area plus AF-ON to some button, say Fn1. Find a subject that will trigger Subject Detection. Prints of my kids make for easy, stationary targets. Or pull up a picture on your computer. Press Fn1 to activate the Wide-area and see how the gray Subject Detection box moves as you pan the camera over the subject. Now, pan such that the Wide-area box is still activating Subject Detection but the center of the box is not over the subject. With the shutter button half pressed, release Fn1. Note that the focus point is now at the center of where the Wide-area box was, and the camera is focussing off the subject now.
3) There is no "a" in persistence, no matter how many times I type it that way. :LOL:

Andy
 
Here is the deal from Nikon's online guide. I had this back of the head thought I'd been thru this handoff question before and looking back it was one of the reasons for why I chose the AF button assignments I did....(I'm gettin old - a few years back my memory would have served me better....)

The last sentence in the blue area says it all...Shutter button pressed halfway....as in gotta use the shutter button....



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Because, its always good to have the main AF (shutter AF) set to auto area or a bigger custom box.
To me this hits at one of the key approaches that seems to differ among photographers:

- Some, including myself that shoot a fair amount of chaotic action in somewhat cluttered environments start with the smallest AF Area that the photographer can reasonably expect to stay on or very close to the desired focus point (usually the eyes). From that standpoint I might hand over to 3D or Auto but can't think of a situation where I'd start with those full sensor modes as my default. My default setting changes with subjects but is often something like Wide-Small or a custom AF Area often set as a wide but thin horizontal area.

- Others apparently start with the largest group that might find the eyes and use something like Auto AF Area or 3D as the starting point and handover to a smaller group when the large starting group struggles. Though, that wouldn't really be a 'tracking AF handover' as much as trying to achieve tracking with a smaller area when the larger area fails.

I can see how either approach might work depending on subjects, light and the shooting environment (lot's of potential false AF targets vs few) but I definitely start with the former and set my default to the smallest group I think I have a chance of tracking my subjects with but have FN buttons programmed to wider modes that I can handover to once tracking is established.

The beauty of modern high end cameras is they can be programmed with either shooting approach.
 
Thanks for checking. I tested my D850 and D6, and they work in the same overall way. So although Nikon has a history of changing (aka undoing) some solid features that work well, and have worked that way for years, I find it reassuring how the Autofocus custom settings in a Z9 and Z8 maintain close similarities.

For the record some context may be relevant here, as questions about HandOver settings are a recurring topic about the Z9 and latterly Z8.... It used be that we were restricted to AF a ILC with shutter activation only, or using the AFOn button on some models. Today, some ILCs still allow using only the shutter button for focus and release.

As I recall it was the D5 and D500 that changed this.... so today, the active focus of these Modern ILCs can be activated by any one of 2, 3 or more Function buttons; this is if the button(s) is set to AFmode+AFOn. It's up to you how to setup and drive the camera, and play any "AF Tune" on the buttons :)

[edited]
This means that you can handoff focus from AF-ON to Fn1, but you can't handoff focus from Fn1 to AF-ON. Do I have that right?
 
Here is the deal from Nikon's online guide. I had this back of the head thought I'd been thru this handoff question before and looking back it was one of the reasons for why I chose the AF button assignments I did....(I'm gettin old - a few years back my memory would have served me better....)

The last sentence in the blue area says it all...Shutter button pressed halfway....as in gotta use the shutter button....



View attachment 63650
It also works with BBF.
 
To me this hits at one of the key approaches that seems to differ among photographers:

- Some, including myself that shoot a fair amount of chaotic action in somewhat cluttered environments start with the smallest AF Area that the photographer can reasonably expect to stay on or very close to the desired focus point (usually the eyes). From that standpoint I might hand over to 3D or Auto but can't think of a situation where I'd start with those full sensor modes as my default. My default setting changes with subjects but is often something like Wide-Small or a custom AF Area often set as a wide but thin horizontal area.

- Others apparently start with the largest group that might find the eyes and use something like Auto AF Area or 3D as the starting point and handover to a smaller group when the large starting group struggles. Though, that wouldn't really be a 'tracking AF handover' as much as trying to achieve tracking with a smaller area when the larger area fails.

I can see how either approach might work depending on subjects, light and the shooting environment (lot's of potential false AF targets vs few) but I definitely start with the former and set my default to the smallest group I think I have a chance of tracking my subjects with but have FN buttons programmed to wider modes that I can handover to once tracking is established.

The beauty of modern high end cameras is they can be programmed with either shooting approach.
I'm with you, which is why I usually have C1 (humm, wide and thin, you copy cat...:) ) or C2 dialed in for the shutter. I like that these are quickly changeable [no menu diving] in size to suit needs. But I've also started with Wide-S to great success.
 
You can test it in 5 minutes.
- AF-ON overrides shutter button focus
- Fn1, 2, or 3 override either shutter focus or AF-ON
- Disp button and joystick center press basically behave like the Fn buttons. They will override shutter or AF-ON but won't be overriden by any other buttons.
- Fn buttons, Disp, etc don't appear to have any priority order. Whichever one is pressed first holds focus regardless of pressing another Fn and regardless of focus area/mode

So basically Fn buttons, Disp, and joystick center are highest priority followed by AF-ON and shutter button at the bottom of the priority heap.

Haven't tested any other buttons other than those mentioned above.
Somehow I got the wrong quote above. Oops... this is the quote I wanted. This means that you can handoff focus from AF-ON to Fn1, but you can't handoff focus from Fn1 to AF-ON. Do I have that right?
 
It also works with BBF.
Yes, I agree if the AF-On button is set to AF-On. In this case it's inheriting the mode [and powers] set by the Focus mode button.
But...
(let say C1 is dialed for the shutter setting)
If AF-ON button is set to C1 (and NOT AF-ON) there is no handoff.
If it's set to AF-On there is handoff.
So it depends on it's setting.
 
Somehow I got the wrong quote above. Oops... this is the quote I wanted. This means that you can handoff focus from AF-ON to Fn1, but you can't handoff focus from Fn1 to AF-ON. Do I have that right?
Edit: Oops! Geoff just pointed out that I'm not seeing what I think and the AF-ON button is just refocusing, so I might be wrong here. That could be critical in some circumstances:

Pardon my interruption but on my Z8, I currently capture focus (Wide Area-Large) with Fn1 on my 100-400 mm lens and, once I have focus I can hand off to the AF-On button on the back of the camera for 3D tracking. I have only been out once using that technique but it seems to work fine.
 
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Somehow I got the wrong quote above. Oops... this is the quote I wanted. This means that you can handoff focus from AF-ON to Fn1, but you can't handoff focus from Fn1 to AF-ON. Do I have that right?
Yes, if AF-On button is set to AF-On you can handoff to FNx, and no you cannot handoff from FNx to AF-On.
 
Pardon my interruption but on my Z8, I currently capture focus (Wide Area-Large) with Fn1 on my 100-400 mm lens and, once I have focus I can hand off to the AF-On button on the back of the camera for 3D tracking. I have only been out once using that technique but it seems to work fine.
Are you sure it is handing off and not re-acquiring focus with 3D? Because my Z9 does not work that way (just tried it again). But I will try my Z8 to see if that changes things.
For example, temporarily set your Focus mode to Wide-L and the AF-ON to 3D. Acquire something with Fn1 (which you also have set to Wide-L) and then switch to 3D. Now try the same thing using the shutter instead of FN1 and then 3D....it works differently (better) - no?
 
Yes, I agree if the AF-On button is set to AF-On. In this case it's inheriting the mode [and powers] set by the Focus mode button.
But...
(let say C1 is dialed for the shutter setting)
If AF-ON button is set to C1 (and NOT AF-ON) there is no handoff.
If it's set to AF-On there is handoff.
So it depends on it's setting.
I’m not following your example.
Both the default/shutter button and the AF-ON button are set to the same AF-area mode (C1)?
 
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