Nikon Z9/8 Hybrid Handover Question

[DRwyoming]

I’m not following your example.
Both the default/shutter button and the AF-ON button are set to the same AF-area mode (C1)?

The question is whether AF-ON is just acting as a way to activate autofocus (same as the shutter release) or whether it is programmed for AF-ON + AF Area Mode in which case it's not just activating the globally set AF Area Mode but is also calling up a specific AF Area mode. The handover behavior to another programmed control button varies depending on how the AF-ON button is configured between the two options above.

 

[Don L Turner]

Are you sure it is handing off and not re-acquiring focus with 3D? Because my Z9 does not work that way (just tried it again). But I will try my Z8 to see if that changes things.
For example, temporarily set your Focus mode to Wide-L and the AF-ON to 3D. Acquire something with Fn1 (which you also have set to Wide-L) and then switch to 3D. Now try the same thing using the shutter instead of FN1 and then 3D....it works differently (better) - no?

That could be possible and I just did not realize it. Still new to the Z system. I will do some testing this week. Will it work properly if I reverse the buttons and hand off from AF-ON to Fn1? I haven't tried that yet.

 

[AClawson]

<duplicate>

 

[AClawson]

The question is whether AF-ON is just acting as a way to activate autofocus (same as the shutter release) or whether it is programmed for AF-ON + AF Area Mode in which case it's not just activating the globally set AF Area Mode but is also calling up a specific AF Area mode. The handover behavior to another programmed control button varies depending on how the AF-ON button is configured between the two options above.

Ah, yes, I think we are all in agreement.
For persistence to work it must start with the shutter button’s AF-area mode.

 

[Geoff_G]

The question is whether AF-ON is just acting as a way to activate autofocus (same as the shutter release) or whether it is programmed for AF-ON + AF Area Mode in which case it's not just activating the globally set AF Area Mode but is also calling up a specific AF Area mode. The handover behavior to another programmed control button varies depending on how the AF-ON button is configured between the two options above.

Thanks...right on....

 

[Don L Turner]

Man oh man, I gotta take the time to read this thread carefully. Incredibly useful info here.

 

[DRwyoming]

Ah, yes, I think we are all in agreement.
For persistence to work it must start with the shutter button’s AF-area mode.

Well I'd state that a bit differently.

For persistence to work it must start with the globally assigned AF Area mode regardless of whether activation of that AF Area mode is accomplished by the shutter release or another button set to AF-ON only.

I use BBAF so I never activate the globally set AF Area mode with the shutter release but handover AF Tracking all the time from the AF-ON button which is set to AF-ON only.

I think where this gets confusing is holding the idea that an AF Area mode is assigned to the shutter release, it really isn't. The shutter release in the camera default configuration just activates whatever AF Area mode is currently set globally for the camera just the same as the AF-ON button in its default configuration. Until one or both of those are reconfigured they do the same thing which is to simply activate the AF system using whatever AF Area mode is currently chosen for the camera.

 

[Geoff_G]

Well I'd state that a bit differently.

For persistence to work it must start with the globally assigned AF Area mode regardless of whether activation of that AF Area mode is accomplished by the shutter release or another button set to AF-ON only.

I use BBAF so I never activate the globally set AF Area mode with the shutter release but handover AF Tracking all the time from the AF-ON button which is set to AF-ON only.

Bingo, that's the summation I was working on...well put...

 

[AClawson]

Well I'd state that a bit differently.

For persistence to work it must start with the globally assigned AF Area mode regardless of whether activation of that AF Area mode is accomplished by the shutter release or another button set to AF-ON only.

I use BBAF so I never activate the globally set AF Area mode with the shutter release but handover AF Tracking all the time from the AF-ON button which is set to AF-ON only.

My mistake, I was using shutter button AF-area mode as a synonym for the globally set AF-area mode.

Do you agree with my verbiage in post #61?

 

[JoelKlein]

Bingo, that's the summation I was working on...well put...

You’re saying I can have more then one AF-ON “only” button?

 

[JoelKlein]

Bingo!!!
Nothing to do with the shutter release!!
It all comes down to which button was set to AF-ON

I just tried programming Disp, FN’s to AF-ON and they all inherit global default AF mode and they all handed over to other buttons with a higher priority.
The way to choose a higher priority is to set AF area mode or AF area mode + AF ON

See screenshot

You can only see EXIF info for this image if you are logged in.

 

[Geoff_G]

You’re saying I can have more then one AF-ON “only” button?

Yes, try it for Fn1- if set to AF-ON it inherits the handoff capability bc it is using the globally assigned focus mode.

EDIT: I see you got it...

 

[JoelKlein]

@Don L Turner
No need to read 4 pages, just this page clears it all up.

P.S.
I rad Steve’s and Thom’s books, thought I got it, but Happened to be I didn’t fully grasp it. Now I think we all nailed it.

And one more note though, the FN buttons set to high priority which overrides the default AF mode, would not handover one to another.
For example:
FN1, FN2, FN3 set to anything beyond the global default AF Area mode, won’t hand over to each other. It will IGNORE any other buttons pressing, because its the highest priority in the hierarchy

 

[NorthernFocus]

Somehow I got the wrong quote above. Oops... this is the quote I wanted. This means that you can handoff focus from AF-ON to Fn1, but you can't handoff focus from Fn1 to AF-ON. Do I have that right?

Correct

 

[fcotterill]

Well I'd state that a bit differently.

For persistence to work it must start with the globally assigned AF Area mode regardless of whether activation of that AF Area mode is accomplished by the shutter release or another button set to AF-ON only.

Yes, Camera "Wider (outward)" Control to User "Tighter" Control of the Autofocus.

I use BBAF so I never activate the globally set AF Area mode with the shutter release but handover AF Tracking all the time from the AF-ON button which is set to AF-ON only.

Ditto. BBAF only

I think where this gets confusing is holding the idea that an AF Area mode is assigned to the shutter release, it really isn't. The shutter release in the camera default configuration just activates whatever AF Area mode is currently set globally for the camera just the same as the AF-ON button in its default configuration. Until one or both of those are reconfigured they do the same thing which is to simply activate the AF system using whatever AF Area mode is currently chosen for the camera.

Yes makes sense

 

[fcotterill]

To me this hits at one of the key approaches that seems to differ among photographers:

- Some, including myself that shoot a fair amount of chaotic action in somewhat cluttered environments start with the smallest AF Area that the photographer can reasonably expect to stay on or very close to the desired focus point (usually the eyes). From that standpoint I might hand over to 3D or Auto but can't think of a situation where I'd start with those full sensor modes as my default. My default setting changes with subjects but is often something like Wide-Small or a custom AF Area often set as a wide but thin horizontal area.

This is also my default strategy to (try) keep the focus on birds in habitats such as thickets and reeds. So Tight > Wide AF control. This tactic also works well with mammals in similar habitats, situations where the D5 and D6 excel - couple of examples.

Is this not where Subject Recognition is handling the Handover from the tighter User control to 3D? Thus, Focus Persistence is not working here in the strict sense

- Others apparently start with the largest group that might find the eyes and use something like Auto AF Area or 3D as the starting point and handover to a smaller group when the large starting group struggles. Though, that wouldn't really be a 'tracking AF handover' as much as trying to achieve tracking with a smaller area when the larger area fails.

In the right habitats, Wider > Tighter AF switching works rather well for birds flying across the open to grab focus with AutoAF, and Handover to a tighter AF mode... I also find a smaller C1 or C2 works well. Particularly when the subject moves from the open to against vegetation.
Assigning AFOn to a LensFn control is an option in some cases.
It's probably similar in some sports, but no personal experience there.
Reading what little has been written about Focus Persistence suggests it was developed primarily for sports professionals.
Considering the challenges facing wildlife photographers - in the wilds outside of stadia - there has to be scope for Nikon to improve AF HandOver. Possibly, there's potential to leverage the inner workings of Subject Recognition. This could strengthen Handover between AF modes on the Fn buttons.

I can see how either approach might work depending on subjects, light and the shooting environment (lot's of potential false AF targets vs few) but I definitely start with the former and set my default to the smallest group I think I have a chance of tracking my subjects with but have FN buttons programmed to wider modes that I can handover to once tracking is established.

The beauty of modern high end cameras is they can be programmed with either shooting approach.

We live in interesting times these modern ILCs sure are impressive instruments. Over the past year we've been gifted the significant advances in the Z9 and Z8, to put Subject Recognition and improved scope for custom settings.

Not that long ago (to best of my reading) the D500 and D5, and D850 set the standard for AF Handover in their widened scope for customization. It's these Pro DSLRs that inaugurated what's being called the Handover AF technique (at least for Nikon).....what Thom Hogan describes as 'focus decision making on demand' with customized Fn buttons.
Trailing the D6, the D5 Triumvariate were still the state of the art until late 2021....

Custom Settings (Nikon DSLRs) for (Fleeting) Wildlife Subjects

I have refined the following Custom setups linking menus with control buttons on a D500 and latterly D850. These have proven to work rather well, particularly captures of fleeting animals and birds. However, Nikon has designed these features primarily to help Pro sports photographers capture...

bcgforums.com

The Nikon D6 advanced and refined the HandOver AF technique - significantly boosted by its all new AF engine and better Custom features - especially the Custom Group Area AF mode. Focus Persistence is a simple, yet powerful, new feature because the active focus position can be inherited across AF modes - using a HandOff.

Edit Update: Subject Detection adds new context to how AF HandOff works on the more advanced Z ILCs. See this thread:

https://bcgforums.com/threads/master-nikon-af-handoffs-on-z8-z9-and-z6iii.39806/post-441522

Having just the small Change in custom settings that now allows changing AF modes using the Red Video Record button has made a big difference. It's key for my Right hand Only custom setup (EDIT: actually this was also possible in Z7 and Z6, prior to the D6).

 

[fcotterill]

Most definitely, I suggest reading the full thread, and follow up the links, especially this one about the learning the Z8

Getting used to the Nikon Z8

Hello everyone. I would like to ask if it's easy to get used to the Z8 quickly. I have a scheduled trip to Crete to photograph Vultures and Raptors in July and I'll probably receive my Z8 just 2-3 days before the trip if I decide to buy it. Do you think that It's possible to get used to the AF...

bcgforums.com

I pulled together a thread on Focus Persistence last year, aimed at a debate but it got no attention. It's stimulating reading all the contributions. Thanks to everyone

Focus Persistence....Nikon AF (D6 and Z9)

Focus Persistence holds the position of the point of Autofocus, so one can switch the AF mode without losing the subject. Its advantage is not only to avoid manually repositioning the cursor, but more importantly it avoids losing focus and missing the Moment. Basically leveraging Focus...

bcgforums.com

Man oh man, I gotta take the time to read this thread carefully. Incredibly useful info here.

@Don L Turner
No need to read 4 pages, just this page clears it all up.

P.S.
I rad Steve’s and Thom’s books, thought I got it, but Happened to be I didn’t fully grasp it. Now I think we all nailed it.

And one more note though, the FN buttons set to high priority which overrides the default AF mode, would not handover one to another.
For example:
FN1, FN2, FN3 set to anything beyond the global default AF Area mode, won’t hand over to each other. It will IGNORE any other buttons pressing, because its the highest priority in the hierarchy

 

[Many Feathers]

I thought I had it, but now I'm more confused. Can anyone write a summary of this page here? Kind of like this one:
"NorthernFocus said:
You can test it in 5 minutes.
- AF-ON overrides shutter button focus
- Fn1, 2, or 3 override either shutter focus or AF-ON
- Disp button and joystick center press basically behave like the Fn buttons. They will override shutter or AF-ON but won't be overriden by any other buttons.
- Fn buttons, Disp, etc don't appear to have any priority order. Whichever one is pressed first holds focus regardless of pressing another Fn and regardless of focus area/mode

So basically Fn buttons, Disp, and joystick center are highest priority followed by AF-ON and shutter button at the bottom of the priority heap."

Which if I understand is completely correct IF you have the AF-ON button set as AF-ON. If the AF-ON button is set to AF-Area Mode, then what happens? Am I getting this? I have Steve Perry's (read twice and referred to often) and Thom Hogan's Z8 book (although I haven't read all of this yet) and Perry's Understanding Nikon AF - DSLR book. Do I need to get Perry's Mirrorless AF book too?

 

[fcotterill]

I thought I had it, but now I'm more confused. Can anyone write a summary of this page here? Kind of like this one:
"NorthernFocus said:
You can test it in 5 minutes.
- AF-ON overrides shutter button focus
- Fn1, 2, or 3 override either shutter focus or AF-ON
- Disp button and joystick center press basically behave like the Fn buttons. They will override shutter or AF-ON but won't be overriden by any other buttons.
- Fn buttons, Disp, etc don't appear to have any priority order. Whichever one is pressed first holds focus regardless of pressing another Fn and regardless of focus area/mode

So basically Fn buttons, Disp, and joystick center are highest priority followed by AF-ON and shutter button at the bottom of the priority heap."

Which if I understand is completely correct IF you have the AF-ON button set as AF-ON.

yes, with the caveat that AFOn can be set to another control if you choose (eg Lens Fn)

If the AF-ON button is set to AF-Area Mode, then what happens? Am I getting this? I have Steve Perry's (read twice and referred to often) and Thom Hogan's Z8 book (although I haven't read all of this yet) and Perry's Understanding Nikon AF - DSLR book. Do I need to get Perry's Mirrorless AF book too?

I've written more than enough about this stuff! But I plan to test further to settle the nagging question how strict Focus Persistence with the C:a9 setting relates to Subject Recognition on the Z9 in handovers between the AF modes.

You should read Steve's Mirrorless AF book, because he's v good at explaining the concepts

 

[JoelKlein]

To take a picture you need 3 things:
AF on the scene
Tell the camera which AF mode
Fully Press the shutter.

This could be accomplished using 1 finger. But you must set up which AF mode you want. Single, small, large, auto, 3D, etc.

If you want to change the type of AF, you have to dig in the menus, i-menus or press the left side button while rotating the dial.

All of the above your changing/configuring the main global AF mode. When you half press the shutter, or use BBF or any other button that you program to accomplish AF-ON - which tells the camera to focus, it will use the global set focus mode, then the last step is to fully press the shutter to take a picture. That’s it! This can be accomplished with only ONE finger.

Now, lets say you want a different AF type while shooting and you want to change it instantly, you can’t wait to mess around changing the global AF mode, then you have to use Two fingers.

The two finger method.
The camera allow for a secondary AF mode which would override and take place instead of the global AF mode set in the menus.

When you half press the shutter to focus = AF-ON - You can set many buttons to AF-ON, they all do the same thing, focus with the global set focus, and you take pictures, but you want to instantly change the focus type ‘away’ from global set focus to any other focus type you wish, you will have to program a button that does just that, change global focus to another type of focus you programmed that button to do.
Now you must use TWO FINGERS, while holding the first AF-ON button, you press the SECOND button, then let go of the first button, and magic happens! The camera now instantly changes the AF mode set by the second button overriding the global set focus type and ‘Handing it over’ to the second button!
But this is a one way street only!
As long you’re pressing the second button, if you press your main AF-ON button, it will be ignored! The second button takes full priority control of the focus type you assigned to it.

To go back to global focus, you must first stop pressing the second button! Then you can press the main AF-ON again. I write ‘again’, because the camera would start focusing from scratch. It won’t remember anything from before. If its a bird far away, it would hunt for the bird all over again.
Vs. when you choose the second button, the camera won’t begin the focus run, and rather remember where that bird is and continue with the second AF type.

To sum it up.
The camera has a global focus, and a secondary override focus. AF area + AF ON
You can have many different buttons set to different overrides and hand over from the global to the override you choose.
But you can’t hand it back to global, (hand it over means the camera won’t begin the focus run again)
And you can’t hand-over from one override to another override. If you do, the camera would begin focusing again.

The 3 finger method would allow you to jump around from global focus, to override focus , and from one override to another override in a hand-it-over and dance around with focus modes. And this requires 3 fingers!

One finger: AF-ON telling the camera to focus. Which focus type?
Second finger: what ever you set to AF- area only. Dance around between them, overrides would still have priority over the global set AF type, but the camera won’t begin focusing again as long as you don’t let go of the AF-ON button.

Third finger, on the fully pressed shutter to take pictures. Its a camera! Designed to save memories

 

[Many Feathers]

yes, with the caveat that AFOn can be set to another control if you choose (eg Lens Fn)

I've written more than enough about this stuff! But I plan to test further to settle the nagging question how strict Focus Persistence with the C:a9 setting relates to Subject Recognition on the Z9 in handovers between the AF modes.

You should read Steve's Mirrorless AF book, because he's v good at explaining the concepts

You certainly have written lots about this stuff... thank you. Know that you are appreciated I will get Steve's Mirrorless AF book...thanks for that recommendation too.

 

[Many Feathers]

To take a picture you need 3 things:
AF on the scene
Tell the camera which AF mode
Fully Press the shutter.

This could be accomplished using 1 finger. But you must set up which AF mode you want. Single, small, large, auto, 3D, etc.

If you want to change the type of AF, you have to dig in the menus, i-menus or press the left side button while rotating the dial.

All of the above your changing/configuring the main global AF mode. When you half press the shutter, or use BBF or any other button that you program to accomplish AF-ON - which tells the camera to focus, it will use the global set focus mode, then the last step is to fully press the shutter to take a picture. That’s it! This can be accomplished with only ONE finger.

Now, lets say you want a different AF type while shooting and you want to change it instantly, you can’t wait to mess around changing the global AF mode, then you have to use Two fingers.

The two finger method.
The camera allow for a secondary AF mode which would override and take place instead of the global AF mode set in the menus.

When you half press the shutter to focus = AF-ON - You can set many buttons to AF-ON, they all do the same thing, focus with the global set focus, and you take pictures, but you want to instantly change the focus type ‘away’ from global set focus to any other focus type you wish, you will have to program a button that does just that, change global focus to another type of focus you programmed that button to do.
Now you must use TWO FINGERS, while holding the first AF-ON button, you press the SECOND button, then let go of the first button, and magic happens! The camera now instantly changes the AF mode set by the second button overriding the global set focus type and ‘Handing it over’ to the second button!
But this is a one way street only!
As long you’re pressing the second button, if you press your main AF-ON button, it will be ignored! The second button takes full priority control of the focus type you assigned to it.

To go back to global focus, you must first stop pressing the second button! Then you can press the main AF-ON again. I write ‘again’, because the camera would start focusing from scratch. It won’t remember anything from before. If its a bird far away, it would hunt for the bird all over again.
Vs. when you choose the second button, the camera won’t begin the focus run, and rather remember where that bird is and continue with the second AF type.

To sum it up.
The camera has a global focus, and a secondary override focus. AF area + AF ON
You can have many different buttons set to different overrides and hand over from the global to the override you choose.
But you can’t hand it back to global, (hand it over means the camera won’t begin the focus run again)
And you can’t hand-over from one override to another override. If you do, the camera would begin focusing again.

The 3 finger method would allow you to jump around from global focus, to override focus , and from one override to another override in a hand-it-over and dance around with focus modes. And this requires 3 fingers!

One finger: AF-ON telling the camera to focus. Which focus type?
Second finger: what ever you set to AF- area only. Dance around between them, overrides would still have priority over the global set AF type, but the camera won’t begin focusing again as long as you don’t let go of the AF-ON button.

Third finger, on the fully pressed shutter to take pictures. Its a camera! Designed to save memories

Thank you JoelKlein. I think I got it now...

 

[NorthernFocus]

I thought I had it, but now I'm more confused. Can anyone write a summary of this page here? Kind of like this one:
"NorthernFocus said:
You can test it in 5 minutes.
- AF-ON overrides shutter button focus
- Fn1, 2, or 3 override either shutter focus or AF-ON
- Disp button and joystick center press basically behave like the Fn buttons. They will override shutter or AF-ON but won't be overriden by any other buttons.
- Fn buttons, Disp, etc don't appear to have any priority order. Whichever one is pressed first holds focus regardless of pressing another Fn and regardless of focus area/mode

So basically Fn buttons, Disp, and joystick center are highest priority followed by AF-ON and shutter button at the bottom of the priority heap."

Which if I understand is completely correct IF you have the AF-ON button set as AF-ON. If the AF-ON button is set to AF-Area Mode, then what happens? Am I getting this? I have Steve Perry's (read twice and referred to often) and Thom Hogan's Z8 book (although I haven't read all of this yet) and Perry's Understanding Nikon AF - DSLR book. Do I need to get Perry's Mirrorless AF book too?

The simple summary:

There appears to be a functional hierarchy, not a button hierarchy: "base" AF area > (assigned) AF area > AF area+AF-ON. "base" AF area being the lowest priority.

Further explanation:

There is a base/global AF mode/area selection selected either the the AF mode button on left front of the camera or via the menu. This is the AF mode/area that activates if you use shutter button activation. It can also be activated with the AF-ON button(BBF) or a lens Fn button if programmed to do so by assigning the "AF-ON" command. So let's call that the "base" AF mode/area.

"AF area": Various buttons can be assigned to change the AF area when pressed in conjunction with either the shutter or AF-ON button. Nikon simply calls this assigning "AF area" to the button.

"AF area+AF-ON": Various buttons can be assigned to ACTIVATE a specified AF area when pressed. Nikon calls this "AF area+AF-ON". This function works by either individually pressing the button or pressing it while another button is currently activating the "base" AF mode/area.

So the priority is very simple:

ANY button that is assigned either "AF area" or "AF area+AF-ON" overrides the "base" AF area regardless of whether it is activated by the shutter, AF-ON button, or lens Fn button.

There is no button hierarchy perse. If any two buttons are assigned the same level of functional hierarchy one will not override the other. First one pressed retains control. For example if you assign Fn1= single point+AF-ON and Fn2=auto area+AF-ON, whichever button you press first activates and retains functional control until released.

Nikon's terminology tends to make things more confusing. There is an AF-ON button and an AF-ON command. The AF-ON button can be programmed to do other things and the AF-ON command can be programmed to various buttons. Then there's the "AF area+AF-ON" that can be assigned to various buttons. Go figure

 

[DRwyoming]

There is no button hierarchy perse.

Agreed, and this is a good point.

Calling the handover and button priority behavior a hierarchy over complicates things. There's just the Base AF Area (good terminology) assigned to any AF-ON activation and then any button assigned to either AF Area or AF-ON + AF Area will override that base setting. There's no further hierarchy, just a base setting and the ability of any single button press to override that setting.

When we seamlessly go from activating the base setting to any chosen override and if we've already established some level of subject/eye detection in the base mode we call that handover of AF tracking. Otherwise it's just selecting a different AF Area mode but there's nothing to 'hand over' if some level of tracking hadn't already been established in the base mode.

Going from one button programmed to a specific AF Area Mode to a different button programmed for a different AF Area Mode is really the second case above and just choosing a different AF Area Mode which may or may not quickly or immediately detect the subject/eye but it's not really handover from active tracking to active tracking as it's just selecting a different AF Area Mode with no guarantee of immediate subject detection and tracking. Same if you release a button(including the shutter release for folks that activate AF that way) that activates AF before pressing another button that activates AF, the camera may quickly or immediately detect the subject/eye but there's no real tracking continuity in a break before make switching scenario.

 

[Geoff_G]

Agreed, and this is a good point.

Calling the handover and button priority behavior a hierarchy over complicates things. There's just the Base AF Area (good terminology) assigned to any AF-ON activation and then any button assigned to either AF Area or AF-ON + AF Area will override that base setting. There's no further hierarchy, just a base setting and the ability of any single button press to override that setting.

When we seamlessly go from activating the base setting to any chosen override and if we've already established some level of subject/eye detection in the base mode we call that handover of AF tracking. Otherwise it's just selecting a different AF Area mode but there's nothing to 'hand over' if some level of tracking hadn't already been established in the base mode.

Going from one button programmed to a specific AF Area Mode to a different button programmed for a different AF Area Mode is really the second case above and just choosing a different AF Area Mode which may or may not quickly or immediately detect the subject/eye but it's not really handover from active tracking to active tracking as it's just selecting a different AF Area Mode with no guarantee of immediate subject detection and tracking. Same if you release a button(including the shutter release for folks that activate AF that way) that activates AF before pressing another button that activates AF, the camera may quickly or immediately detect the subject/eye but there's no real tracking continuity in a break before make switching scenario.

I'd add that for real focus persistence handoff to occur is has to originate from the base AF Area using either the shutter button or any button set for AF-ON. There is no focus handoff with any other scenario.