Nikons killing it

[sh1209]

I think every company, even taking cameras out of the equation should support any product they sell, especially high dollar products for at least five years with regular firmware/updates because that’s what we pay for as a consumer. These cameras cost as much as some people pay for an automobile, and expecting improvements whenever warranted, is certainly our right, when paying a premium for a product.

 

[Chris K]

Fujifilm has a lot of vocal supporters for a tradition of adding significant features over a camera's lifecycle. If Nikon is now committing to doing this, that's great news for everyone. Post-launch feature additions are good for the consumer, and if this becomes an expected "feature", we'll all be happy.

As for the opinion that features added later meaning the camera should have been delayed until that feature was complete... I disagree. I'll draw a parallel to general computers, like phones or laptops. Nobody would say "delay Lightroom's launch until they add ML noise reduction", or "delay the iPhone until Siri is available". General computers are expandable platforms, and are defined more via software applications than their hardware.

Cameras have been hardware-only devices for the past 100+ years. If you don't have autofocus sensors, you don't have an autofocus camera. Cameras launched today are much more akin to a general-purpose computer, and are defined as much by their software as by their hardware. For example, the BIF differences between an X-H2S, Z9, A1, R5, and OM1 are down to software. All five platforms have capable hardware; we've all seen each platform track a bird's eye. Things like "stickiness" are software algorithms.

In short, software development is a continuous process. Computers get more useful every year as software gets better. We should not expect cameras to ship "encased in amber", but we should expect manufacturers to continue to support their cameras post-launch!

 

[DavidT]

Fujifilm has a lot of vocal supporters for a tradition of adding significant features over a camera's lifecycle. If Nikon is now committing to doing this, that's great news for everyone. Post-launch feature additions are good for the consumer, and if this becomes an expected "feature", we'll all be happy.

As for the opinion that features added later meaning the camera should have been delayed until that feature was complete... I disagree. I'll draw a parallel to general computers, like phones or laptops. Nobody would say "delay Lightroom's launch until they add ML noise reduction", or "delay the iPhone until Siri is available". General computers are expandable platforms, and are defined more via software applications than their hardware.

Cameras have been hardware-only devices for the past 100+ years. If you don't have autofocus sensors, you don't have an autofocus camera. Cameras launched today are much more akin to a general-purpose computer, and are defined as much by their software as by their hardware. For example, the BIF differences between an X-H2S, Z9, A1, R5, and OM1 are down to software. All five platforms have capable hardware; we've all seen each platform track a bird's eye. Things like "stickiness" are software algorithms.

In short, software development is a continuous process. Computers get more useful every year as software gets better. We should not expect cameras to ship "encased in amber", but we should expect manufacturers to continue to support their cameras post-launch!

I agree 100% however let’s be fair for a flagship the Z9 on ship date wasn’t vetted as well as it should have been. When comparing AF to the other cameras you mentioned on launch it was still way behind. To me that’s a camera that was released before it was ready for prime time. That’s very different than adding in capabilities in the future.

The Z8 is a prime example. Its AF is on par with the Z9 today not at launch and it’s the launch of the Z8. The Z8 so far appears to have been vetted and ready for launch.

 

[Winston Churchill (Sir)]

We feel so compelled to protect and defend our own brands, that when someone else gives your brand a compliment one is almost ready to defend it

I often wonder - if the R5, A1 and Z9 where all the same brand - CameraX - but just different models of that brand - how we would have jumped up and down that all the good stuff isn't in all the bodies. Perhaps it's a bit like a camera bag - you never have the "right" one.

 

[sh1209]

We feel so compelled to protect and defend our own brands, that when someone else gives your brand a compliment one is almost ready to defend it

I often wonder - if the R5, A1 and Z9 where all the same brand - CameraX - but just different models of that brand - how we would have jumped up and down that all the good stuff isn't in all the bodies. Perhaps it's a big like a camera bag - you never have the "right" one.

Yeah, like I said in the initial post, I shoot Sony and was a long time Nikon shooter, but the elephant in the room right now is Nikon is absolutely killing it as far as after sale support, and thats just an empirical fact. I absolutely commend them for doing that as well and some of the other companies need to follow in their tracks. I might be speaking solely for myself but whenever I pay a premium for a product, especially $6500 for a camera buddy I expect several years of support and improvements whenever possible.

 

[Winston Churchill (Sir)]

Yeah, like I said in the initial post, I shoot Sony and was a long time Nikon shooter, but the elephant in the room right now is Nikon is absolutely killing it as far as after sale support, and thats just an empirical fact. I absolutely commend them for doing that as well and some of the other companies need to follow in their tracks. I might be speaking solely for myself but whenever I pay a premium for a product, especially $6500 for a camera buddy I expect several years of support and improvements whenever possible.

I got what you said - and I agree with you. And as you said - there is nothing wrong with recognising something as being good. Your post is quite clear

 

[sh1209]

I got what you said - and I agree with you. And as you said - there is nothing wrong with recognising something as being good. Your post is quite clear

I would be a damn liar if I didn’t admit it made me a little envious lol

 

[Winston Churchill (Sir)]

I would be a damn liar if I didn’t admit it made me a little envious lol

Dont worry - I would be a liar if I havent admired the A1
But we all know - today it's Brand X - tomorrow Brand Y
"Comme ci comme ca"

 

[John Navitsky]

I agree 100% however let’s be fair for a flagship the Z9 on ship date wasn’t vetted as well as it should have been. When comparing AF to the other cameras you mentioned on launch it was still way behind. To me that’s a camera that was released before it was ready for prime time. That’s very different than adding in capabilities in the future.

except for 1) but i've had my z9 for over a year and i wouldn't have had that if they had waited until last month. 2) i shoot canine action which is extremely challenging (much more so than human sports due to both the speeds involved and the color/contrast/refractive properties of dogs) and the z9 was up to the challenge at ship date.

 

[agrumpyoldsod]

I actually disagree with DavidT's sentiment. The perception that the Z9 was "not ready for release" is a false statement.

Not false -- just the statement "but that’s because they released it a year or more before it was actually ready to be released" is just your opinion.

The Z9 was great out of the box on 25 January 2022 and 2nd in March 2022 and it is in June 2023 -- it has just been added to and refined along the way.

I shoot Nikon and Hasselblad - have for a VERY VEERY VEERY long time. I don't whine consistently (well not on this forum) about the fact that the X2D-100C (in all other ways a huge huge success) """still""" only offers single AF-S auto-focus and is in every way a relatively expensive slow heavy camera (while faster than its bigger brethren) - no it is what it is AND the 16-bit image quality is STUPID -- I am not dumb enough to addit to a line up and try to shoot wildlife action with it.

WELL I don't care to use other brands of cameras for action shooting or for vids. My fingers and brain are wired to the Nikon ecosystem AND it is no easy job to swap.
The X2D-100c was a way for me to access a vast leap up in quality while also slowing and being more ponderous and deliberate as a shooter. BUT the terminology and flashes etc are all very similar to Nikon.

Healthy competition is GREAT -- I hope that the next round of Canon and Sony and and .... are all great cameras and do for their new owners what the Z9 did for me AND so many others.

I hope the fact that Nikon has an continues to "improve the Z9/Z8" spurs the makers of YOUR BRAND of camera to make them better too -- to come out with new and even better bodies and lenses for YOUR system AND then Nikon will too.

Making any comment as a none owner or user -- well -- its a choice. But it better had be supportive or this thread will be closed down.

 

[John Navitsky]

I expect several years of support and improvements whenever possible.

it's possible there are "reasons". for example, they may have not provided enough space to add additional programing or that some of their functionality is baked into hardware.

alternately, it could just be that they just didn't have that mindset.

 

[John Woodworth]

Sometimes you gotta give credit where credits due. I am mostly referring to firmware updates, especially with the Z9. I own the Sony A1, which is going on three years since its release and still hasn’t made it to version 2.0 with firmware. The Nikon Z9 has been out less than a year and a half and it’s on version 4.0, as well as added many useful features. I cannot think of a single thing that has been added to the A1 since owning it for a year and a half lol. The real kicker is the auto focus was better on version 1.2 than it is on the current version. I hope that someone at Sony wakes up from their siesta and sees how Nikon is giving them a beat down right now in their flagship body. Having said that, the A1 is an incredible camera but it still chaps my A?? That I had to go out and buy another $3800 body just to do focus stacking which has better autofocus as well as more features than the flagship body lol. Just a rant as well as commending Nikon lol.

Although, from what I read, the A1 is right up there with the top tier (if not THE top tier) camera for stills after three years. So, there’s that.

 

[John Navitsky]

Although, from what I read, the A1 is right up there with the top tier (if not THE top tier) camera for stills after three years. So, there’s that.

yep. i still recommend the a1, r3 along with the z8/z9 for dog sports. they're all top tier cameras

 

[Maljo]

Can’t s

I don’t see it this way at all. I don’t buy a car and hope they do updates to make it work correctly or a computer and hope they add features or updates to make it work the way it should have. I don’t buy a refrigerator that won’t stay cool hoping they do updates so it works like competitor refrigerators.

I can’t think of anything in life I buy that I don’t buy for its capabilities when I purchase it and not for a hope and a prayer it gets better with updates.

Nikon has done a ton of updates to the Z9 but that’s because they released it a year or more before it was actually ready to be released. They did this because they were so far behind and they had to stop the bleeding.

As you know I also shoot the a1 and after over two years it still is at the top of the game. Sure it hasn’t had any mind blowing advancements because frankly it was great on day one.

I don’t recall any of my prior Nikons getting any significant updates that advanced the capabilities in the cameras. It’s because they released at a slower pace and the camera on launch date was what you expected it to be.

I’m glad that after a year Nikon is providing updates so the camera can live up to its flagship status. I know a lot of people who were very disappointed in their new Z9 for awhile but I don’t know a single person who bought the a1 and was disappointed in the cameras ability to focus track, lock up etc.

I think Nikon has unfortunately set a precedence to its users that when they buy a future body it’s going to get all kinds of updates to evolve the camera. I don’t see them doing that unless they continue to sell you cameras that aren’t ready for prime time.

One final thought. It amazes me that people are content with spending that kind of money on a camera that isn’t ready for release. If they dropped a lens at that price point that couldn’t find focus or had to have updates to work properly or be on focus people would be pissed. But for the camera they don’t seem to care.

Can’t agree with anything you’ve written. Any product can be improved.

 

[Anjin San]

I actually disagree with DavidT's sentiment. The perception that the Z9 was "not ready for release" is a false statement. The Z9 version 1.x was and continues to be a very good camera. It was the best Nikon camera at the time of release, was significantly faster to use than either the Z6/Z7 bodies, and had significant build and functional improvements. Because the Z9 v1.x did not AF as accurately under ALL the situations that the A1 could does not mean that the camera was not ready for release. For Nikon shooters who did not want to leave the Nikon ecosystem, the Z9 v1.x was the camera we wanted and needed at the time.

Nikon deserves credit for continuous improvement and extending firmware beyond bug fixes. Continuous improvement is a virtue not a failing. I want my doctors, lawyers, teachers, auto repair professionals and so-on to continually improve with experience. I suggest that Nikon software engineers had the same mindset... develop an upgradeable platform and build in improvements as professionals make suggestions.

At some point the Z9's architecture will hit its limit, until it does so, I hope that Nikon does not sit tight on what they have and look to continually improve this already outstanding camera.

cheers,
bruce

I disagree as well. David is a Sony guy…so naturally he thinks it’s the bestest of all time…and it is…for him. OTOH…all of us have the brand that is best for us and there are lots of reasons for those choices…but remember Steve’s statement…”Tools, not jewels”…and not ge5 bogged down in brand bashing lest the mods get on us.

 

[DavidT]

Not false -- just the statement "but that’s because they released it a year or more before it was actually ready to be released" is just your opinion.

The Z9 was great out of the box on 25 January 2022 and 2nd in March 2022 and it is in June 2023 -- it has just been added to and refined along the way.

I shoot Nikon and Hasselblad - have for a VERY VEERY VEERY long time. I don't whine consistently (well not on this forum) about the fact that the X2D-100C (in all other ways a huge huge success) """still""" only offers single AF-S auto-focus and is in every way a relatively expensive slow heavy camera (while faster than its bigger brethren) - no it is what it is AND the 16-bit image quality is STUPID -- I am not dumb enough to addit to a line up and try to shoot wildlife action with it.

WELL I don't care to use other brands of cameras for action shooting or for vids. My fingers and brain are wired to the Nikon ecosystem AND it is no easy job to swap.
The X2D-100c was a way for me to access a vast leap up in quality while also slowing and being more ponderous and deliberate as a shooter. BUT the terminology and flashes etc are all very similar to Nikon.

Healthy competition is GREAT -- I hope that the next round of Canon and Sony and and .... are all great cameras and do for their new owners what the Z9 did for me AND so many others.

I hope the fact that Nikon has an continues to "improve the Z9/Z8" spurs the makers of YOUR BRAND of camera to make them better too -- to come out with new and even better bodies and lenses for YOUR system AND then Nikon will too.

Making any comment as a none owner or user -- well -- its a choice. But it better had be supportive.

Well we all have opinions. I value the opinions of say Steve and he would disagree with your belief that the Z9 was so great on release date. Many threads here and videos by him claim a different initial release. You obviously haven’t shot anything from Sony or Canon so I guess you don’t realize how far off from other older cameras it was at launch.

Facts aren’t brand bashing. I could give two flips what someone uses but let’s not try and forget the past because it’s convenient.

 

[sh1209]

I think flagship buddies from any brand should be built and expected to last anywhere from 7 to 10 years and I really can’t see the need for a release any sooner than five years and that goes for all brands. This is my main reason for commending nikon, because they really seem to be Improving their products overtime and from my experience with Sony and being a Sony shooter, I feel there improve all after sales is pretty abysmal that’s just being honest

 

[DavidT]

Can’t s

Can’t agree with anything you’ve written. Any product can be improved.

There is a difference from improved from an item ready for prime time vs one that’s improved from a starting point well below what it should have been on release.

The contrast being made here is different brands had cameras more capable on launch. Even the new Z8 is more capable and sorted than the Z9 was on launch day. Also the Z9 was months to a year before it actually shipped unlike the Z8 that was weeks from announcement. That alone makes it pretty obvious the Z9 was rushed to market which mother Nikon bodies haven’t been.

 

[Anjin San]

They could but they don’t need to. If that upgrade comes it will come in a new body. You have to remember they offer a lot of different bodies. Each has its target market. Bloggers, cinema, action, high MP for commercial and landscape. The a1 is an action camera so in the way Sony views things lets focus that on speed. Focus bracketing isn’t used by an action photographer. Keep in mind the AP for example buys the a1 and a7r4 now I’d assume the a7R5. They kit their photographers based on assignments.

Should the a1 have these features? Yeah I’d like them but I’m not the focus of development for the bigger base they sell to. Do I suspect the next flagship to incorporate some of these wanted features? Yes if they want me to buy anything new.

Look at the Canon R3 it doesn’t do a lot of these non action features but it does things that no other camera does. Camera companies who have a breath of options don’t typically try and build all the features into one camera but focus the abilities of that camera to its intended audience.

Come on…you criticize Nikon because of the limitations in their flagship and needing to play catch up and dismiss Sony and their neglect/inability/business decision/whatever the reason for missing features in their flagship body? Pot…kettle much? Both brands are fine as are others…

 

[DavidT]

I disagree as well. David is a Sony guy…so naturally he thinks it’s the bestest of all time…and it is…for him. OTOH…all of us have the brand that is best for us and there are lots of reasons for those choices…but remember Steve’s statement…”Tools, not jewels”…and not ge5 bogged down in brand bashing lest the mods get on us.

Couldn’t be further from the truth other than yes I shoot Sony. I shot Nikon since the F5 in the 90’s. Anyone who spends enough time on here reading my comments will show that I don’t recommend Sony to everyone. In fact many of the recent threads about a new system for wildlife I’ve been suggesting the OM System to many as it would probably be a good system for their needs. Before you make blanket statements I suggest knowing the facts.

 

[John Navitsky]

The contrast being made here is different brands had cameras more capable on launch.

also consider that no camera exists in a vacuum. consider the a1 is actually just the end of a series of iterative development, starting with the a7 in '13 perhaps. the canon eos r in '18.

 

[DavidT]

Come on…you criticize Nikon because of the limitations in their flagship and needing to play catch up and dismiss Sony and their neglect/inability/business decision/whatever the reason for missing features in their flagship body? Pot…kettle much? Both brands are fine as are others…

Not at all. What I’ve been saying is Sony approach to the market is different products for different users. The camera that is all things for all people still doesn’t exist and likely never will. If one looks at the Sony line up and how they have products for many uses cases makes it clear why one camera doesn’t do it all. The a1 is built as an action sports camera and geared towards that market. The a7R5 for example is the opposite which is why it doesn’t shoot 20-30 fps in RAW, doesn’t focus on speed but rather high detail which isn’t trying to be sold to the action industry. If I was a macro and landscape photographer the a1 wouldn’t be the best option that Sony offers.

Nikon is in its early stages. The fact that the Z7, Z8 and Z9 are all the same MP and the Z8 and Z9 are so similar is a very different strategy in product offering than Sony has.

Not saying one is better than the other but it’s how they position their products. So knowing this I don’t have any expectation the new a1 will check 100% of even my boxes as no camera ever has or will.

 

[Anjin San]

Couldn’t be further from the truth other than yes I shoot Sony. I shot Nikon since the F5 in the 90’s. Anyone who spends enough time on here reading my comments will show that I don’t recommend Sony to everyone. In fact many of the recent threads about a new system for wildlife I’ve been suggesting the OM System to many as it would probably be a good system for their needs. Before you make blanket statements I suggest knowing the facts.

I guess we can agree to disagree about your comments then…but I’m just fine with that. . Healthy and polite debate is just fine…but brand bashing of which several of your comments in this thread are IMO doesn’t do anything but lower the friendliness here because it always descends into chaos. As others said…if they had waited the Z9 woulda been better…but mine, even though crippled in your opinion…was great out of the box when I got it prettty early and has gotten better over time which is what’s supposed to happen. I considered an a1…but didn’t like the hand ergonomics and my muscle memory is Nikon…I could have switched but why switch to something that isn’t comfortable was my thought.

I don’t believe in brand bashing…I believe in Steve’s 80/4 and tools not jewels thoughts…and every brand is better at some things than other brands…and needs, wants, familiarity and a whole bunch of other reasons determine what individual people decide…but your “not ready for prime time“ statement is first off only your opinion and second is pretty obvious brand bashing…which we are supposed to stay away from.

 

[John Navitsky]

Nikon is in its early stages. The fact that the Z7, Z8 and Z9 are all the same MP and the Z8 and Z9 are so similar is a very different strategy in product offering than Sony has.

i don't think this is so much a strategy as it is a necessity. the problem is building out new stacked sensors takes time and a disproportionate amount of resources. basically until nikon has a variety of stacked sensors in their inventory you'll see them be very creative with the parts they have available. i think we could even see that sensor end up in low end platforms once the top end platforms have moved on to a new sensor.

 

[DavidT]

I think flagship buddies from any brand should be built and expected to last anywhere from 7 to 10 years and I really can’t see the need for a release any sooner than five years and that goes for all brands. This is my main reason for commending nikon, because they really seem to be Improving their products overtime and from my experience with Sony and being a Sony shooter, I feel there improve all after sales is pretty abysmal that’s just being honest

The Olympics was always the next flagship launch but Covid and mirrorless advancements have changed the 4-5 year time frame. I suspect you will continue to see Canon and Nikon release faster than that as they fill out their lines and Sony will slow down. Eventually they will all likely go back to 4-5 years as limitations in hardware will slow things down. Right now is the new tech push for product releases just like computers and phones once were. They still launch new computers and phones each year but most of us likely upgrade computers every 5 or so years and 3 years on phones. Until the next new design that blows everything away releases will slow. My wallet will be thankful lol.