Nikons killing it

[arbitrage]

I think you’re exactly right and I think this is what happened to Nikon a few years back. Whenever these companies think that people are just going to shell out five or six grand every two years just to get a couple new features, my opinion is just going to come back and bite them in the rear end sooner than later. You are a member over at Fred Miranda and I can tell you from many many threads and posts, I have seen on there that there are a lot of unhappy campers in the Sony camp right now, mostly from what they did with the A7RV. No matter what anyone says some of the features in that camera can absolutely be added via firmware into the Sony A1. Whenever a company like Sony is selling an extremely high dollar item like the A1 and barely putting out incremental updates that’s just not going to fly with a lot of people.

For sure, a lot of A7RV features could be added to the A1.
Just off the top of my head:
FW update via memory card
Stacking
Faster card format times
BEAF in video
DMF for lenses without the switch

And of course some things will have to wait for A1II like...
AI chip and whatever improvements in AF it is directly responsible for
Multi-angle, higher res, rear LCD
Customizable EC dial
Better button feel, better scroll wheel feel (curious if you find this also as maybe my A1 is just too broken in)?
8 stop IBIS

 

[sh1209]

For sure, a lot of A7RV features could be added to the A1.
Just off the top of my head:
FW update via memory card
Stacking
Faster card format times
BEAF in video
DMF for lenses without the switch

And of course some things will have to wait for A1II like...
AI chip and whatever improvements in AF it is directly responsible for
Multi-angle, higher res, rear LCD
Customizable EC dial
Better button feel, better scroll wheel feel (curious if you find this also as maybe my A1 is just too broken in)?
8 stop IBIS

Absolutely and another feature that could easily be added via firmware, is subject, detection in video which for the life of me I cannot understand why that camera does not have.

 

[arbitrage]

it's unclear to me what the parameters around the improvements are, but the solution to acquiring small targets at distance with 3d is to use a different mode like c1 and do a handoff to 3d.

Sure but the Z9 is not good at that in Wide Area or Auto. At least not compared to Sony and Canon's flagships. That is why they need to improve it in those modes.
But they did mention general AF improvements so maybe it will be better anyways.

 

[John Navitsky]

For sure, a lot of A7RV features could be added to the A1.
Just off the top of my head:
FW update via memory card
Stacking
Faster card format times
BEAF in video
DMF for lenses without the switch

maybe. maybe even probably. but consider that sony, coming from a consumer electronics background may have not left a lot of headroom and taken lots of cost efficiency choices that may not make it comfortable to take an upgrade rich approach in the a1

 

[arbitrage]

I guess we Sony shooters can only hope that what Andreas from SAR said recently is true. In that Sony is having internal meetings about providing better FW updates. But given his track record I'm not going to believe it till I see it.

 

[abc123brian]

Yeah I’ve never experienced the af getting worse. You’ll see an a9III later this year and then an a1MK2 after that. These cameras will be more advanced than anything on the market. I’d also expect canon to drop an r5mk2 and the R1 that’s going to make anything Z look obsolete. That’s the price you pay for being late to the party. Canon and Sony got there first and will more than likely stay at the top.

It is important to adapt to the market as well and as someone pointed out, cameras are in competition with smart phones. Smartphones receive regular updates to keep them fresh. I wouldn’t disagree with you on Nikon being late to the mirrorless party. So was Canon, the RP and R were less camera than the Z6/Z7. In the smartphone world, Apple was late to the party. When they released the iPhone, it was an unfinished product, had no 3G support and worst of all didn‘t even have capability to send an mms, only standard text messages. The smartphone world was dominated by RIM, Microsoft, Palm and all of them dismissed Apple and their iPhone. Now I wouldn’t say Apple or Google (even later to the party) are paying any price for being late to the party or from releasing an “unfinished” product. I remember Steve Jobs saying he hoped to capture, I think it was, 1% of the market. Adapting strategy is important to success and it seems firmware updates improving performance and adding features is a very successful strategy so far for the companies providing them.

 

[fcotterill]

while i don't disagree with what you said, i think people under appreciate the technical problem.

the subject detection problem is a nutzo complicated computing problem. and you have to do it in a super small package. AND it has to be at a price that people will buy it.

i'm fairly convinced that both nikon and canon really couldn't envision how to solve the problem to the level of building a pro sport body AT ALL, at least not in a commercially viable way.... until sony did it.

i think this is the reason canon and nikon were behind. they didn't see the path forward at all, so they were stalled.

and then basically it became a survival necessity that allowed them to figure it out. if you know something is possible it greatly improves your chances of accomplishing it. doubly so if you HAVE to accomplish it.

in reality, it's pretty amazing all three brands have found a way to succeed.

Developing the Mirrorless camera technology was/is one arena of R&D demand. However, what keeps getting overlooked is Nikon set a few precedents with the Nikon 1 MILCs in 2011 - these included 60 fps, the on-sensor AF, and high frame rates. But Nikon was still milking the last years of the DSLR market in which they were heavily embedded.

This took them a few years - from 2015 new Restructuring - to wind down and condense the DSLR lines, while winding up Z System as the planned new line, banking on the sales of all new optics as much as new MILCs. Nikon optical engineers have described their "Meeting Ball Analysis Project Team" [see first 2 answers in this interview] ...

It must have been as challenging in the time frame, if not more so, for Nikon R&D to design, test and then release over 36 Z-Mount lenses. Since late 2018, beginning with the 24-70 f4S, these have rolled out steadily from 2019-2022.... with more to come. Nikon's own commitment is 50+ Z Lenses by 2025.

An entire swathe of new features we have seen in the Z9 and now Z8 released through past 18 months was probably waiting on a minimal diversity of Zed glass, as much as the high-end Z9 technology. If anything, Nikon slid behind in production of their new Z telephotos over 2022 (even if they had anticipated demand exceeding the scale of 200K Z9 cameras). The 70-200 f2.8S was also delayed.

 

[Abinoone]

Sometimes you gotta give credit where credits due. I am mostly referring to firmware updates, especially with the Z9. I own the Sony A1, which is going on three years since its release and still hasn’t made it to version 2.0 with firmware. The Nikon Z9 has been out less than a year and a half and it’s on version 4.0, as well as added many useful features. I cannot think of a single thing that has been added to the A1 since owning it for a year and a half lol. The real kicker is the auto focus was better on version 1.2 than it is on the current version. I hope that someone at Sony wakes up from their siesta and sees how Nikon is giving them a beat down right now in their flagship body. Having said that, the A1 is an incredible camera but it still chaps my A?? That I had to go out and buy another $3800 body just to do focus stacking which has better autofocus as well as more features than the flagship body lol. Just a rant as well as commending Nikon lol.

I can’t specifically speak to either the A1 or Z9 (other than they’re both very good cameras, from what I’ve read), but as someone who spent 30 years in the software industry, I will say that there are two ways to look at frequent releases. The first way is that the vendor continues to provide bug fixes and to make incremental improvements to their product (although these should be bundled so as not to cause release chaos). The second way is that vendors release a product before it’s really stable, with the expectation that many users will report problems much faster than their own testers, and they can fix them quickly. I don‘t know which instance applies to Nikon’s Z9 (perhaps both?), but either way, version upgrades are generally a good thing.

 

[sh1209]

I can’t specifically speak to either the A1 or Z9 (other than they’re both very good cameras, from what I’ve read), but as someone who spent 30 years in the software industry, I will say that there are two ways to look at frequent releases. The first way is that the vendor continues to provide bug fixes and to make incremental improvements to their product (although these should be bundled so as not to cause release chaos). The second way is that vendors release a product before it’s really stable, with the expectation that many users will report problems much faster than their own testers, and they can fix them quickly. I don‘t know which instance applies to Nikon’s Z9 (perhaps both?), but either way, version upgrades are generally a good thing.

I agree and there has been some issues that have arisen from firmware 1.3 on the Sony A1 with auto focus issues and not being as stable as it was on earlier versions. I don’t know if they’ll ever address it or give a firmware update at this point, but it sure seems like Nikon is on top of getting things rectified and adding features

 

[John Navitsky]

Developing the Mirrorless camera technology was/is one arena of R&D demand. However, what keeps getting overlooked is Nikon set a few precedents with the Nikon 1 MILCs in 2011 - these included 60 fps, the on-sensor AF, and high frame rates. But Nikon was still milking the last years of the DSLR market in which they were heavily embedded.

This took them a few years - from 2015 new Restructuring - to wind down and condense the DSLR lines, while winding up Z System as the planned new line, banking on the sales of all new optics as much as new MILCs. Nikon optical engineers have described their "Meeting Ball Analysis Project Team" [see first 2 answers in this interview] ...

yah, i don't mean to suggest they didn't see that mirrorless was the future and proactively start working/innovating. but i think at that point they didn't see the urgency to get to the pro sport body.

It must have been as challenging in the time frame, if not more so, for Nikon R&D to design, test and then release over 36 Z-Mount lenses. Since late 2018, beginning with the 24-70 f4S, these have rolled out steadily from 2019-2022.... with more to come. Nikon's own commitment is 50+ Z Lenses by 2025.

yah, i don't think people really appreciate their lens strategy and how well they've executed on it and how it's clear they had that vision from 'the beginning'.

 

[EricBowles]

I can’t specifically speak to either the A1 or Z9 (other than they’re both very good cameras, from what I’ve read), but as someone who spent 30 years in the software industry, I will say that there are two ways to look at frequent releases. The first way is that the vendor continues to provide bug fixes and to make incremental improvements to their product (although these should be bundled so as not to cause release chaos). The second way is that vendors release a product before it’s really stable, with the expectation that many users will report problems much faster than their own testers, and they can fix them quickly. I don‘t know which instance applies to Nikon’s Z9 (perhaps both?), but either way, version upgrades are generally a good thing.

Actually, most software companies as well as many hardware companies have adopted a release management program with content and enhancements delivered over time. It's a lot of work to not only make updates but to handle integration testing and code distribution, but does provide a way to deliver both bug fixes and significant enhancements.

From the customer perspective, slowing down hardware releases and planning for enhancements via firmware is a lot better than needing to update hardware every couple of years.

 

[Wes Peterson]

I agree and there has been some issues that have arisen from firmware 1.3 on the Sony A1 with auto focus issues and not being as stable as it was on earlier versions. I don’t know if they’ll ever address it or give a firmware update at this point, but it sure seems like Nikon is on top of getting things rectified and adding features

Curious.... did this update coincide with fro deciding he would switch from Sony to Canon?

 

[sh1209]

Curious.... did this update coincide with fro deciding he would switch from Sony to Canon?

I am honestly not sure but there have been several folks that have had issues to where they feel the earlier versions performed better and that has been my experience as well, especially birds in flight near water.

 

[sh1209]

Curious.... did this update coincide with fro deciding he would switch from Sony to Canon?

What I can tell you for certain is there's a lot of unhappy folks after the release of a $3800 RV that outperforms the A1 in most areas other than fast action, Does focus bracketing, Subject detection in video, articulating screen, numerous subject modes like the Z9, Ai autofocus and so on.

 

[John Woodworth]

Sure but the Z9 is not good at that in Wide Area or Auto. At least not compared to Sony and Canon's flagships. That is why they need to improve it in those modes.
But they did mention general AF improvements so maybe it will be better anyways.

It might be that the relatively fewer points in the Z9 focus system is physically limiting the resolution at which subjects can be recognized…If so, significant firmware improvements will be limited.

 

[Cameron T]

Sure but the Z9 is not good at that in Wide Area or Auto. At least not compared to Sony and Canon's flagships. That is why they need to improve it in those modes.
But they did mention general AF improvements so maybe it will be better anyways.

Quite a number of people disagree with you, and have shown how it's comparable (at worst) to Sony and Canon.

Wide area modes are incredibly solid.

 

[John Woodworth]

Quite a number of people disagree with you, and have shown how it's comparable (at worst) to Sony and Canon.

Wide area modes are incredibly solid.

It’s easy to lose the nuances here. Often, quite a number of people will allow as this occurs when the subject in the frame is too small to provide a useful image.

 

[Anjin San]

Quite a number of people disagree with you, and have shown how it's comparable (at worst) to Sony and Canon.

Wide area modes are incredibly solid.

Yep…they’re solid for me as well. I look back at what my D7500 did and the improvements we have today are astounding…and I’m sure that one can say the same for just bout every other brand and the D7500 was and still is a pretty solid DSLR. I’ve said a bunch of times here and elsewhere that most of the gains with mirrorless have nothing to do with the lack of a mirror. Sure, the EVF that zooms and shows you more info and previews the ctual what the image exposure will look like are nice…but the real keys are the better/faster sensor which gives FOS and noise reduction, the better and more powerful processor and associated much better AF areas and algorithms…and the bigger lens throat and closer flange distance which along with better lens coatings, more powerful modeling computers and the associated more sophisticated optical designs all of that allows. Mirrorless makes sense for users because of the extra things that EVF does and for the vendors because things are less mechanicallcomplicted and because the faster sensors allow shutterless bodies…but most of the advantage is to Moore’s Law and newer/better tech.

 

[arbitrage]

Quite a number of people disagree with you, and have shown how it's comparable (at worst) to Sony and Canon.

Wide area modes are incredibly solid.

I've never said the Wide Area aren't solid. They are good to a point and will get the job done. Just not as easily or reliably as other modes from other companies.

But to each their own. Having owned all of them, I only have to decide for myself. But I'm not shooting for anyone other than myself so my decision is mine and I don't go off of what others say as I'd rather just buy the things myself and shoot my subjects. I have zero brand loyalty...I've owned all three brands at the same time. I've jumped to the best when it is the best if it makes sense to do so for my subjects. Nikon's last generation of DSLRs were the best ever made. Even 1DXIII couldn't touch the D500. But their MILCs are 3rd tier in my rankings. I'm hoping FW 4 elevates the Z9 so I can buy the Nikon lenses I want but until I see it do so in my own hands I'm not going to buy anything I read on here. I got burned believeing the hype of FW 3.10 over 1.0 and it was not even close to fixing the underlying algorithm issues. I'm not saying it can't be done via FW, and I'm all in if they manage it. Otherwise maybe I'll be all in when the Mark 2 versions arrive in a couple years.

 

[ssheipel]

Quite a number of people disagree with you, and have shown how it's comparable (at worst) to Sony and Canon.

Wide area modes are incredibly solid.

Every time I want to whine at AF tracking and detection in my Z9 I spend a day with my D6 (and its superb AF) to give myself a kick and get back to just how "incredibly solid" the AF technology is in the Z9

 

[arbitrage]

It’s easy to lose the nuances here. Often, quite a number of people will allow as this occurs when the subject in the frame is too small to provide a useful image.

And others don't even have a grasp of why someone wants the subject to be acquired when it is smaller in the frame...."pro tip"....it isn't to take a shot of it at that moment....

 

[EricBowles]

…but most of the advantage is to Moore’s Law and newer/better tech.

You could not be more correct.

All of these companies have been dealing with limits of processor speed, memory card speed, etc. Many of the enhancements in mirrorless are only possible as we get faster processors and faster cards. It was not too long ago that the fastest XQD cards were just 400 MB/s and a write speed in the camera of 285 MB/s.

It makes you think about how far in advance camera companies and related suppliers of chips, sensors, batteries, and memory cards have to work. If you are too far in advance, costs are much higher and you have to upgrade with new cameras sooner. Too slow and you lose market share. In Nikon's case, the new processor and the decision to eliminate the shutter was probably a decision made 4 years ago, and it had implications on sensor design, battery and more.

 

[Anjin San]

You could not be more correct.

All of these companies have been dealing with limits of processor speed, memory card speed, etc. Many of the enhancements in mirrorless are only possible as we get faster processors and faster cards. It was not too long ago that the fastest XQD cards were just 400 MB/s and a write speed in the camera of 285 MB/s.

It makes you think about how far in advance camera companies and related suppliers of chips, sensors, batteries, and memory cards have to work. If you are too far in advance, costs are much higher and you have to upgrade with new cameras sooner. Too slow and you lose market share. In Nikon's case, the new processor and the decision to eliminate the shutter was probably a decision made 4 years ago, and it had implications on sensor design, battery and more.

Yeah…much like computer and phone makers…lots of balls to juggle.

 

[ButlerKid]

Quite a number of people disagree with you, and have shown how it's comparable (at worst) to Sony and Canon.

Wide area modes are incredibly solid.

Please remember that each person has different skills - and different expectations. What is satisfactory to one or even many people may not be satisfactory to other people.

Some may think tent camping is just fine. Others would find it deplorable and expect the Ritz Hilton. And that is just the extreme ends of a very broad spectrum of what might be satisfactory when camping.

Arbitrage is an exceptionally gifted photographer who has owned, and used, Nikon, Sony and Canon gear. He has more experience with each of these brands than most of us. He is speaking from experience AND assessment of what does and does not currently need HIS expectations. He is not speaking for anyone else.

Broad generalizations are likely to be false. YMMV.................

 

[Wes Peterson]

It was fairly predictable what this thread would turn into. 1 person giving Nikon props and immediately the Sony gang jumped in to remind everyone that Nikon sucks. lol