Nikons killing it

[fcotterill]

What's changed is Mirrorless, and hardware being supported strategically - effectively the ILCs have finally caght up to where much of the solid state technology product market has been for a few years already. Such that many consumers take for granted that the PCs on our desks gets regular updates and countless security patches: for the operating systems and applications.

For these Pro cameras, it makes sense to share a new crop of cream every few months as the AF deep-learning algorithms are improved. In the case of FW v4.0 it's likely the Auto Capture software engine has been developed primarily for Nikon's remote shooting robotic systems... so it makes sense for Pros to be able to integrate the Z8 and Z9 into such networks in a stadium etc.

Nikon is another engineering company who've caught up with this business strategy. The public admission was made explicit in 2019 in an interview with a Nikon executive. Eye AF in the Z6/Z7 was the opening salvo; since then the Z9 updates have been in their own league..... each time adding a rich diversity of new features.

Previously, the only inkling had been the rare patch or new feature in a Pro DSLR. The single example I recall is Recall Shooting Functions and HL and VL AF modes in the D5 circa 2018. Then in mid 2020, the D6 got RSF(Hold) and a significant under-the-hood boost in its Autofocus.

It's presumably an efficient use of R&D to leverage software and keep up with competitors and move ahead. All the better if the customers are happy recipients. The risk is if the hardware reaches its ceiling with limited potential to support new features.

 

[DavidT]

I guess we can agree to disagree about your comments then…but I’m just fine with that. . Healthy and polite debate is just fine…but brand bashing of which several of your comments in this thread are IMO doesn’t do anything but lower the friendliness here because it always descends into chaos. As others said…if they had waited the Z9 woulda been better…but mine, even though crippled in your opinion…was great out of the box when I got it prettty early and has gotten better over time which is what’s supposed to happen. I considered an a1…but didn’t like the hand ergonomics and my muscle memory is Nikon…I could have switched but why switch to something that isn’t comfortable was my thought.

I don’t believe in brand bashing…I believe in Steve’s 80/4 and tools not jewels thoughts…and every brand is better at some things than other brands…and needs, wants, familiarity and a whole bunch of other reasons determine what individual people decide…but your “not ready for prime time“ statement is first off only your opinion and second is pretty obvious brand bashing…which we are supposed to stay away from.

Well we can agree to disagree but just because your opinion is different doesn’t mean I’m bashing anything. This is a Nikon forum and I get that. I was a Nikon shooter when I joined in the first month this forum launched. It’s a sad day when a contrasting opinion is considered bashing because it doesn’t fit the majority narrative of a biased group. Oh well I’m a big boy and I will continue to share my opinions.

 

[DavidT]

i don't think this is so much a strategy as it is a necessity. the problem is building out new stacked sensors takes time and a disproportionate amount of resources. basically until nikon has a variety of stacked sensors in their inventory you'll see them be very creative with the parts they have available. i think we could even see that sensor end up in low end platforms once the top end platforms have moved on to a new sensor.

Yeah that’s a valid point but I wonder if that’s really the issue as they source their sensor from others who have other sensors available. Now maybe those aren’t available to them yet. I could see this being the case for Canon as they design their own. I’d imagine Nikon makes tweaks to current sensors for them but from what I understand they aren’t doing ground up design.

 

[StefanSC]

Well... Nikon is killing it these days, Sony was killing it 1 year ago, maybe Canon will kill it next year... who knows, these companies are just like frogs, leaping over eachother, sometimes in large leaps, sometimes in many smaller ones.

For now, enjoy the free software updates boys and girls.

It won't be long till we get the subscription model pushed on us from camera manufacturers too ...

 

[DavidT]

Well... Nikon is killing it these days, Sony was killing it 1 year ago, maybe Canon will kill it next year... who knows, these companies are just like frogs, leaping over eachother, sometimes in large leaps, sometimes in many smaller ones.

For now, enjoy the free software updates boys and girls.

It won't be long till we get the subscription model pushed on us from camera manufacturers too ...

I sure hope that doesn’t happen but seeing the car industry doing it I wouldn’t be surprised.

 

[sh1209]

Well... Nikon is killing it these days, Sony was killing it 1 year ago, maybe Canon will kill it next year... who knows, these companies are just like frogs, leaping over eachother, sometimes in large leaps, sometimes in many smaller ones.

For now, enjoy the free software updates boys and girls.

It won't be long till we get the subscription model pushed on us from camera manufacturers too ...

At this point I would have paid to have a couple extra features via firmware instead of having to purchase a $3800 body for a couple functions.

 

[DavidT]

At this point I would have paid to have a couple extra features via firmware instead of having to purchase a $3800 body for a couple functions.

Shhhh don’t give them any ideas lol but yeah I’m kind of with you on that one.

 

[Wes Peterson]

Yeah that’s a valid point but I wonder if that’s really the issue as they source their sensor from others who have other sensors available. Now maybe those aren’t available to them yet. I could see this being the case for Canon as they design their own. I’d imagine Nikon makes tweaks to current sensors for them but from what I understand they aren’t doing ground up design.

Maybe you should read this

 

[John Navitsky]

Yeah that’s a valid point but I wonder if that’s really the issue as they source their sensor from others who have other sensors available. Now maybe those aren’t available to them yet. I could see this being the case for Canon as they design their own. I’d imagine Nikon makes tweaks to current sensors for them but from what I understand they aren’t doing ground up design.

i think it’s the same for others. in reality sony only has two stacked sensor cameras and they’ve had the most time. i think it’s the reason the r3 was lower mp, smaller mp sensor was probably easier and faster to design/build. i think it’s why the r1 isn’t here yet. basically these days i think it’s all about the sensor and it’s hard for everyone

 

[Marcus]

Well, I may have a different perspective. As a Sony shooter looking to swap (upgrade) in the near future to Nikon (purely for the long glass) I am watching these Z9/8 firmware updates very carefully. Particularly regarding the first two 'Other' updates:

• Improved the accuracy of [3D-tracking] for small, fast-moving subjects when [Auto], [People], [Animal], or [Vehicle] is chosen for [AF subject detection options] and no subject of the selected type is detected.
• • Improved focus accuracy for dark, low-contrast subjects.

As a (small) bird photographer I am really interested to see what folks experience is on these particular developments

 

[DavidT]

Maybe you should read this

Interesting. I wonder if now 5 years since that article was written with stacked sensors if that is still true.

 

[DavidT]

i think it’s the same for others. in reality sony only has two stacked sensor cameras and they’ve had the most time. i think it’s the reason the r3 was lower mp, smaller mp sensor was probably easier and faster to design/build. i think it’s why the r1 isn’t here yet. basically these days i think it’s all about the sensor and it’s hard for everyone

Yup. Sony really only has one camera the a1 I’d buy so for me they don’t have a deep offering in cameras. I think the r3 is lower MP is the target market is the sports photographer and for them and transfer speeds they would prefer the smaller file sizes. They built a camera for a specific purpose and killed it. The R1 has had so many predictions it’s hard to tell what they will do but I suspect it’s going to be amazing.

 

[Maljo]

I agree 100% however let’s be fair for a flagship the Z9 on ship date wasn’t vetted as well as it should have been. When comparing AF to the other cameras you mentioned on launch it was still way behind. To me that’s a camera that was released before it was ready for prime time. That’s very different than adding in capabilities in the future.

The Z8 is a prime example. Its AF is on par with the Z9 today not at launch and it’s the launch of the Z8. The Z8 so far appears to have been vetted and ready for launch.

The Z9 was a great Camera on day one and has only improved over time.

 

[sh1209]

I honestly think after sale support and the duration should be proportional to the price paid for the product. I mean I would certainly expect more firmware/improvements for a Z9 as opposed to a D5300. It just makes sense or it does to me. I have never seen Sony take such heat as I’ve seen over the last 4-5 months on forums as well as in comments on YouTube. Reason being is the release of the RV with lots of features not in this flagship body. It’s insane that a $6500 camera body nor any other body they have other than the A7RV have video subject detection or focus bracketing. But hey, I bought it that way I suppose lol. Anyhow I loathe the thought of paying for features but in this case if I paid $199 for some features, it would have saved me $3600 as well as not having the hassle of selling one of the A1 bodies.

 

[ssheipel]

I don’t see it this way at all. I don’t buy a car and hope they do updates to make it work correctly or a computer and hope they add features or updates to make it work the way it should have. I don’t buy a refrigerator that won’t stay cool hoping they do updates so it works like competitor refrigerators.

I can’t think of anything in life I buy that I don’t buy for its capabilities when I purchase it and not for a hope and a prayer it gets better with updates.

Nikon has done a ton of updates to the Z9 but that’s because they released it a year or more before it was actually ready to be released. They did this because they were so far behind and they had to stop the bleeding.

As you know I also shoot the a1 and after over two years it still is at the top of the game. Sure it hasn’t had any mind blowing advancements because frankly it was great on day one.

I don’t recall any of my prior Nikons getting any significant updates that advanced the capabilities in the cameras. It’s because they released at a slower pace and the camera on launch date was what you expected it to be.

I’m glad that after a year Nikon is providing updates so the camera can live up to its flagship status. I know a lot of people who were very disappointed in their new Z9 for awhile but I don’t know a single person who bought the a1 and was disappointed in the cameras ability to focus track, lock up etc.

I think Nikon has unfortunately set a precedence to its users that when they buy a future body it’s going to get all kinds of updates to evolve the camera. I don’t see them doing that unless they continue to sell you cameras that aren’t ready for prime time.

One final thought. It amazes me that people are content with spending that kind of money on a camera that isn’t ready for release. If they dropped a lens at that price point that couldn’t find focus or had to have updates to work properly or be on focus people would be pissed. But for the camera they don’t seem to care.

For me, I don't look at, with the move to mirrorless, firmware updates as corrections or fixes (although the opportunity to do that certainly exists and is exercised) but very much more about the engineers innovating out how to get more out of the engine they produced with enough capacity to handle more ' to come but not yet known' powerful functions. What in the past was the release of a new camera to get new functionality is now accomplished with an firmware upgrade. Why Sony hasn't upgraded their firmware is obviously unknown to me, but could very well be as Steven alludes to, they're asleep -- meaning they're conscious hours are about improving with the next new hardware -- or simply the engine in their current cameras isn't expandable enough to allow for significant firmware upgrades. Anyway, my surprise will be if camera manufacturers don't eventually stop calling such upgrades, as Nikon has been providing in the Z9, "firmware updates" and start calling them "new operating system" and attach a price tag

 

[John Navitsky]

For me, I don't look at, with the move to mirrorless, firmware updates as corrections or fixes (although the opportunity to do that certainly exists and is exercised) but very much more about the engineers innovating out how to get more out of the engine they produced with enough capacity to handle more ' to come but not yet known' powerful functions. What in the past was the release of a new camera to get new functionality is now accomplished with an firmware upgrade.

the other thing to keep in the back of our mind is that these cameras are not just in a fight with each other, but with the smartphone. they need to keep improving or they’ll loose viability

 

[Anjin San]

Well we can agree to disagree but just because your opinion is different doesn’t mean I’m bashing anything. This is a Nikon forum and I get that. I was a Nikon shooter when I joined in the first month this forum launched. It’s a sad day when a contrasting opinion is considered bashing because it doesn’t fit the majority narrative of a biased group. Oh well I’m a big boy and I will continue to share my opinions.

I guess those of us that have had a Z9 for a year and got a years worth of fine images disagree with you. You should share your opinions…but your wording selection in several posts in this thread are IMO going over into bashing rather than friendly debate with a contrasting opinion. As I said…we all shoot what we want for various reasons…and that’s fine…but as a known shooter of brand G when one is opining bout brand Q phrasing can make it appear to be bashing despite one’s intention not to bash…but we are getting way off topic for this thread...so to get back on track…I agree that continued updates are good…especially in a flagship body…and Sony’s lack of doing that so users will shell out another $6500 or whatever is doing their users a disservice…but it’s their company. You can defend their practice, others disagree and prefer Nikon’s continual improvement process. And…their recent lens developments are excellent…I’m sure that some Sony and Canon shooters are wishing for built in TC lenses that might or might not come…although the weight and size of those makes them not something I would get but I can appreciate that others mileage differs and they love them.

 

[sh1209]

I would like to add one other thing to this thread as well and that is not everyone has unlimited financial resources. My wife and I have done well for ourselves but I certainly don’t have a an unending supply of money. Whenever I spend $6500 for a camera, I expect it to be supported For several years and plan on at least keeping it five years if not longer. Same with a computer. My last iMac I purchased in 2021 I paid over $5000 for it and I expect to be able to use it for 5 to 7 years easily and I expect Apple to maintain support for that machine when shelling out that kind of money. Just my two cents

 

[John Woodworth]

Let's face it. Nikon got caught short in the late twenty-teens when it became clear that mirrorless was going to be the future. Some of us got caught transitioning to the Z system in late 2019 and then watched enviously while Sony launched the A1 with amazing capabilities.

Now, after three years, Nikon has made the Z6/7ii into decent cameras and the Z8/9 are up there with the top dogs.

It's been a long three years for Nikon, though, and, although the pandemic probably played a role, they haven't executed the best strategy. They must have lost a lot of market.

 

[arbitrage]

My car gets a lot more updates than my A1 does. 11 updates in the past 6 months. And most of them are useful new features and UI improvements.

Sony set a precedent with the huge updates to A7III, A7RIII and A9.....this has led to disappointment ever since as they don't seem to do much in the way of new features via FW since then.

I feel Sony only cares about video these days with some interest in supplying sports shooters. Wildlife is barely on their radar. New long lenses are probably unlikely.

I feel the writing may be on the wall and I'm fairly certain in 2-3 years I'll be back shooting either Nikon or Canon. But maybe not, Sony might surprise me.
I'll see how everything looks by the time Summer Olympics happen and then decide what direction to go in. I'm no stranger for jumping between systems. At one point I was shooting Canon, Nikon and Sony all at the same time!!

 

[John Navitsky]

Let's face it. Nikon got caught short in the late twenty-teens when it became clear that mirrorless was going to be the future.

while i don't disagree with what you said, i think people under appreciate the technical problem.

the subject detection problem is a nutzo complicated computing problem. and you have to do it in a super small package. AND it has to be at a price that people will buy it.

i'm fairly convinced that both nikon and canon really couldn't envision how to solve the problem to the level of building a pro sport body AT ALL, at least not in a commercially viable way.... until sony did it.

i think this is the reason canon and nikon were behind. they didn't see the path forward at all, so they were stalled.

and then basically it became a survival necessity that allowed them to figure it out. if you know something is possible it greatly improves your chances of accomplishing it. doubly so if you HAVE to accomplish it.

in reality, it's pretty amazing all three brands have found a way to succeed.

 

[arbitrage]

Well, I may have a different perspective. As a Sony shooter looking to swap (upgrade) in the near future to Nikon (purely for the long glass) I am watching these Z9/8 firmware updates very carefully. Particularly regarding the first two 'Other' updates:

• Improved the accuracy of [3D-tracking] for small, fast-moving subjects when [Auto], [People], [Animal], or [Vehicle] is chosen for [AF subject detection options] and no subject of the selected type is detected.
• • Improved focus accuracy for dark, low-contrast subjects.

As a (small) bird photographer I am really interested to see what folks experience is on these particular developments

The problem I see with that improved accuracy claim (which is certainly one of the Z9's Achilles heels) is that it is only for 3D mode. 3D mode is not a great mode to acquire small birds at distance, especially if they are moving fast as it is too difficult to get that small square onto the bird and then engage AF before it moves off the square. What Nikon needs to do is improve accuracy at distance for small subjects in Auto AF and Wide Area AF modes....not 3D.

 

[sh1209]

My car gets a lot more updates than my A1 does. 11 updates in the past 6 months. And most of them are useful new features and UI improvements.

Sony set a precedent with the huge updates to A7III, A7RIII and A9.....this has led to disappointment ever since as they don't seem to do much in the way of new features via FW since then.

I feel Sony only cares about video these days with some interest in supplying sports shooters. Wildlife is barely on their radar. New long lenses are probably unlikely.

I feel the writing may be on the wall and I'm fairly certain in 2-3 years I'll be back shooting either Nikon or Canon. But maybe not, Sony might surprise me.
I'll see how everything looks by the time Summer Olympics happen and then decide what direction to go in. I'm no stranger for jumping between systems. At one point I was shooting Canon, Nikon and Sony all at the same time!!

I think you’re exactly right and I think this is what happened to Nikon a few years back. Whenever these companies think that people are just going to shell out five or six grand every two years just to get a couple new features, my opinion is just going to come back and bite them in the rear end sooner than later. You are a member over at Fred Miranda and I can tell you from many many threads and posts, I have seen on there that there are a lot of unhappy campers in the Sony camp right now, mostly from what they did with the A7RV. No matter what anyone says some of the features in that camera can absolutely be added via firmware into the Sony A1. Whenever a company like Sony is selling an extremely high dollar item like the A1 and barely putting out incremental updates that’s just not going to fly with a lot of people.

 

[Marcus]

Hopefully just a matter of time then..

 

[John Navitsky]

The problem I see with that improved accuracy claim (which is certainly one of the Z9's Achilles heels) is that it is only for 3D mode. 3D mode is not a great mode to acquire small birds at distance, especially if they are moving fast as it is too difficult to get that small square onto the bird and then engage AF before it moves off the square. What Nikon needs to do is improve accuracy at distance for small subjects in Auto AF and Wide Area AF modes....not 3D.

it's unclear to me what the parameters around the improvements are, but the solution to acquiring small targets at distance with 3d is to use a different mode like c1 and do a handoff to 3d.