How very true
. Life’s too short to bash the other guy’s choices…
Nikons killing it
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. Life’s too short to bash the other guy’s choices…
Anuj Singh
New member
I am happy with the fact that Nikon is doing firmware updates for Z9. Also hope they continue it with future cameras and make this something that the brand is known for. Won't make it's a brand comparison argument. All 3 brands I feel are great for action and wildlife.
Cameron T
Well-known member
Sure, and I agree that everyone has different skills and expectations, but to say " the Z9 is not good at that in Wide Area or Auto. At least not compared to Sony and Canon's flagships" is at best an over generalization, since as I said plenty of people (including Steve, and many others) have shown it's doable, I don't feel bad about saying an opinion might be incorrect.
I'm not here to say Nikon is perfect, because it's not. I think that the z8/9/a1/r3 are all in the same general area at this point wrt to AF, and finding which one is 'best' would require objective tests which we haven't done (and I don't believe anyone has, to be fair).
Someone can also be really good at a job, and still mess up. I see it all the time in my line of work.
Cameron T
Well-known member
I wish I'd gotten to play with a d6, but I haven't yet. The last one I got to mess around with for a bit (from a fellow photographer) was a d5. How's the d6 handle compared to the z9 in AF? Especially group mode.Every time I want to whine at AF tracking and detection in my Z9 I spend a day with my D6 (and its superb AF) to give myself a kick and get back to just how "incredibly solid" the AF technology is in the Z9
I think the moral of the story and my opinion is, the company or companies that support their products via firmware or other avenues will be the most likely to succeed in the long run. I started this thread because I do genuinely think Nikon is trying to provide improvements/updates in a way they didn't do with the first generation of Z bodies. I fear this is where Sony is heading and if they don't wake up soon to the fact of Nikon rolling out these updates and wildlife targeted lenses, they might soon suffer the bleeding that Nikon once did. I owned the Z9 for about 4 months and shot with it nearly every day during that time. On that first firmware I thought the A1 performed better. My main issue with the Z9 was size and having two partially paralyzed hands made that body extremely difficult for me to use. This was definitely the main reason I switched to Sony. The video capabilities of the Z9 were and still are outstanding. The A7RV gives it a run for the money except the lack of having a stacked sensor make rolling shutter an issue to be dealt with. There really are no bad cameras but support on the other hand is what's missing with Sony IMO.
Calson
Well-known member
The best part for me with the Nikon mirrorless camera is that for the first time in 34 years with Nikon cameras I am able to get improved performance without having to buy a new camera.
I do with Nikon would ask its customers which changes or enhancements they want. The autofocus improvements are great but there are subtle changes that many have asked for since the introduction of the Z9 and they are still not available. I for one loved the 5:4 crop feature introduced with the D3 and used on every subsequent DSLR including the D8xx cameras but not included with the Z9.
I do with Nikon would ask its customers which changes or enhancements they want. The autofocus improvements are great but there are subtle changes that many have asked for since the introduction of the Z9 and they are still not available. I for one loved the 5:4 crop feature introduced with the D3 and used on every subsequent DSLR including the D8xx cameras but not included with the Z9.
John Navitsky
Well-known member
i don't know if he's still doing it, but Brad was collecting fw ideas here http://www.naturalart.ca/artist/fieldtests/Z9_Firmware_Wishlist.html
Steve Perry also submitted a list to Nikon...........
John Navitsky
Well-known member
yah, i just wasn't sure he takes and forwards suggestions
Obviously since I have a different view of things you are speaking about me. You like others missed the point entirely. I never once bashed Nikon. I did state a fact that the Z9 on launch did not have its AF for example sorted out like it is today. In my opinion they launched the camera before it was ready for primetime to work at a basic level worthy of a flagship. In contrast Sony launched the a1 with never before seen capabilities in the af department with a 50MP sensor and 30 fps in RAW. That camera was ready for primetime on launch.
I agree that any brand that continues to improve its product via updates is welcomed and adding features is even better. What I specifically called out is on the Z9 they did a lot of updates over the first year just to get it to a flagship level in performance. Compare the Z9 launch to the Z8 launch. The Z8 came out of the box doing what the Z9 does today which is significantly more than it did on launch.
Bottom line is the expectation of any camera at that price range being sold as the best we have should be at that level on day 1. If they can do better than great but I don't think it is a good strategy to release products before they are ready to go. Folks are praising them for letting them be a beta tester so they could sell a camera a year sooner. To each their own but that is not something I would be praising.
I am sure in there somewhere I am bashing your brand. Bashing is the word thrown around here when someones opinion is different than yours.
You were the only person who disagreed with the OP before this thread got a warning on post #9 lol
So, is the Sony AF perfect? If not, would you like a FW update to make it better?
The point is, new developments are being made in AI and algorithms etc all the time and thus can't be implemented before they are discovered. So *any* camera maker can have improvements made regardless of how cutting edge or competitive they are at the time of release.
Nope it sure isn’t but it’s closer than any camera I’ve owned in 35 years. Of course we want improvements but without repeating myself people are wanting to focus in on one thing and totally ignore why Nikon is on firmware 1.4. It isn’t all because of new features and some of the advancements are really to fix what they learned in the beta stage or first year selling the camera.
groob
Active member
The problem with your comments is not that your “opinion is just different.” It’s that you’re disagreeing in a derogatory manner that necessarily insults everyone who shoots a Z9.
The other grating aspect of your comments is that you’ve continually engaged in pure hyperbole. I think most people would agree that the A1 outperformed a Z9 at launch and that it took Nikon a short while to get to near parity. But you’ve dramatically overstated the Z9’s shortcomings throughout this thread. The Z9 was perfectly capable of miraculous AF for 90%+ of photographic situations from day one. Indeed, there were no subjects that it was incapable of capturing. Might there have been some fringe subjects that were a bit more difficult to capture on a Z9 than an A1? Sure, but using those as your example is the exception swallowing the rule. And the differences between the flagships have only narrowed over time. So, again, most people tend to agree that the A1 very slightly outperforms the Z9 in fringe situations, like obtaining focus on a swallow a long way away. But almost no one cares about such situations, so saying things like, all Z9 users prior to FW 3.10 were beta testers is both insulting and ignores reality. That’s why your comments have annoyed everyone.
Last point, you’ve not really given any facts except that Nikon has released several firmware updates. Your comments have actually been filled with opinions that you label as facts. Terms like “best” are inherently subjective and include preferences. Therefore, they are opinions and cannot be objective facts.
The other grating aspect of your comments is that you’ve continually engaged in pure hyperbole. I think most people would agree that the A1 outperformed a Z9 at launch and that it took Nikon a short while to get to near parity. But you’ve dramatically overstated the Z9’s shortcomings throughout this thread. The Z9 was perfectly capable of miraculous AF for 90%+ of photographic situations from day one. Indeed, there were no subjects that it was incapable of capturing. Might there have been some fringe subjects that were a bit more difficult to capture on a Z9 than an A1? Sure, but using those as your example is the exception swallowing the rule. And the differences between the flagships have only narrowed over time. So, again, most people tend to agree that the A1 very slightly outperforms the Z9 in fringe situations, like obtaining focus on a swallow a long way away. But almost no one cares about such situations, so saying things like, all Z9 users prior to FW 3.10 were beta testers is both insulting and ignores reality. That’s why your comments have annoyed everyone.
Last point, you’ve not really given any facts except that Nikon has released several firmware updates. Your comments have actually been filled with opinions that you label as facts. Terms like “best” are inherently subjective and include preferences. Therefore, they are opinions and cannot be objective facts.
The irony is alive and well because you just did all of the same things you claim I did.
If you read the comments many are saying the Z9 was perfect on launch. So people disagree with you as well. I guess since opinions are irrelevant then can you show proof that it was perfectly fine for 90%? That’s an oddly specific number so surely there must be a case study because you apparently live in a world of facts not opinions.
I responded to the OP who I get along with well that I saw things differently as he also shoots Sony and was contrasting the two companies. And then all the Nikon crowd came to defend their beloved Nikon. Funny I shot Nikon for 27 years and sitting back and seeing how Nikon shooters have such a superiority complex I’m glad I don’t anymore.
Cheers
Ed Erkes
Active member
I switched from Nikon to Sony when the A1 came out. If I had to buy into a camera system right now, it would be Nikon. Their camera prices are lower than Sony and they have the telephotos with built-in teleconverters. The fact that they are improving their products with firmware updates is nice to see. I am disappointed that Sony has not followed suit. I've seriously considered selling one of my A1s and my 600mm in order to get a z8 and 600 tc.
Ed Erkes
Active member
I switched from Nikon to Sony when the A1 came out. If I had to buy into a camera system right now, it would be Nikon. Their camera prices are lower than Sony and they have the telephotos with built-in teleconverters. The fact that they are improving their products with firmware updates is nice to see. I am disappointed that Sony has not followed suit. I've seriously considered selling one of my A1s and my 600mm in order to get a z8 and 600 tc.
JFW
Member
Looks like Sony has issued several firmware updates for the A1 since its release, just like Nikon has done for its' cameras. So what's the difference?
(not really looking for any 'answers', more of a rhetorical question)
(not really looking for any 'answers', more of a rhetorical question)
Truly I'm not a testing kind of guy with my gear, so no side by side comparisons of the AF capabilities in the two cameras. For me the D6 AF is superb including subject detection, but the Z9 is just 'better' most definitely with stickiness and with finding the subject. The D6 can't compete with the full frame tracking -- eg the Z9 really doesn't care where in the frame the subject is. I note too that I have no long Z lenses so shoot wildlife only with f mount lenses. On that point at F8 (e.g. widest aperture when using the 500 pf with 1.4 tc) the D6's AF tracking options disappear. ) And when switching between the two cameras (which I've never done in a single day -- like I said; am just not a testing gear sort of guy) I do initially notice the faster AF of the Z9, but then it just what it is with either camera. But ultimately we're hijacking Steve's original post about manufacturers' approaches to firmware upgrades
Cheers!
P
philippe
Guest
I'm looking forward to hearing Steve's professional opinion on the auto-capture feature. These are exciting times for Nikon shooters. While there is much talk above about the actual cameras, it is the Nikon lenses which are the icing on the cake. The 85mm f1.2 and 50mm f1.2 produce images of outstanding beauty. I will be honest, I am glad that I was not swayed by the incessant and very tiresome criticism levied against Nikon in many quarters of the Internet and particularly on youtube over the past few years.
Yes, I LOVE my 50 1.2 (and if Nikon ever delivers my 600 tc so I can budget plan properly, can't wait to use -- buy! -- the 85 1.2) and am looking forward to playing with the new auto capture with people in motion (e.g. dancers and skaters). And I'm with you, I gave up the lens sniffing Youtube crowd over the brand bashing ridiculousness
P
philippe
Guest
The 85mm f1.2 is genuinely outstanding. It is expensive but it really does create beautiful images. I stopped watching a number of prominent youtubers over the past few years as they began to exceed themselves in their divisiveness. They have changed from being 'content makers' to 'makers of discontent'. Photography forums and a number of YouTube channels have become distinctly unpleasant which is ironic in that most people genuinely interested in photography (certainly hobbyists) will tell you that they took the activity up as a way of enjoying the beauty in the world, be it human, landscape or wildlife. It is a great shame that that desire for an aesthetic escape is so often confronted by occasionally fanatical unpleasantness.Yes, I LOVE my 50 1.2 (and if Nikon ever delivers my 600 tc so I can budget plan properly, can't wait to use -- buy! -- the 85 1.2) and am looking forward to playing with the new auto capture with people in motion (e.g. dancers and skaters). And I'm with you, I gave up the lens sniffing Youtube crowd over the brand bashing ridiculousness
The 'good' thing about the long wait for the 600 is I've quite nearly saved the total cost of it, so my now months old concern that the moment I bought the 85 the 600 would arrive is becoming moot (e.g. I won't make it out of summer without owning the 85
). And agree with you utterly -- "makers of discontent" is a perfect way to describe that negative mess that I ignore completely. Cheers!
fcotterill
Well-known member
I agree with all these points. Very valid
I've been carrying a D6+500 PF and Z9+800 PF, and have tested the 500 PF on the Z9 to confirm the differences. So the 500 PF, and other f mounts are shared between the two cameras... obviously these comparisons are only valid at f5.6 or faster aperture settings.
Overall, I still find my D6 finds and locks on to subjects much faster than the Z9, and this difference stands out through all Z9 firmware updates, since v2.0.
The underlying, suspected, reason hasn't been raised here, yet I don't think, but it's about Cross-Type focusing points, which is where Nikon mirrorless still lags. The D6 sets a high bar with a full array of Cross-Type sensors. I've only tyre kicked around the Nikon ILCs, so with zero experience , I cannot judge other systems, the simple reason is the hugely expensive factor of lenses to test those cameras.
I've been carrying a D6+500 PF and Z9+800 PF, and have tested the 500 PF on the Z9 to confirm the differences. So the 500 PF, and other f mounts are shared between the two cameras... obviously these comparisons are only valid at f5.6 or faster aperture settings.
Overall, I still find my D6 finds and locks on to subjects much faster than the Z9, and this difference stands out through all Z9 firmware updates, since v2.0.
The underlying, suspected, reason hasn't been raised here, yet I don't think, but it's about Cross-Type focusing points, which is where Nikon mirrorless still lags. The D6 sets a high bar with a full array of Cross-Type sensors. I've only tyre kicked around the Nikon ILCs, so with zero experience , I cannot judge other systems, the simple reason is the hugely expensive factor of lenses to test those cameras.
Truly I'm not a testing kind of guy with my gear, so no side by side comparisons of the AF capabilities in the two cameras. For me the D6 AF is superb including subject detection, but the Z9 is just 'better' most definitely with stickiness and with finding the subject. The D6 can't compete with the full frame tracking -- eg the Z9 really doesn't care where in the frame the subject is. I note too that I have no long Z lenses so shoot wildlife only with f mount lenses. On that point at F8 (e.g. widest aperture when using the 500 pf with 1.4 tc) the D6's AF tracking options disappear. ) And when switching between the two cameras (which I've never done in a single day -- like I said; am just not a testing gear sort of guy) I do initially notice the faster AF of the Z9, but then it just what it is with either camera. But ultimately we're hijacking Steve's original post about manufacturers' approaches to firmware upgrades
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fcotterill
Well-known member
Nikon's firmware strategy is certainly welcomed, the major new features especially. Custom Area AF was one new addition that has definitely improved the Z9 Autofocus, but mainly in how one sets up and uses the camera, as it's the same AI design of the Autofocus.
Nevertheless, although the details are off topic, the Z8 and Z9 are still missing minor fixes and features.
One challenge is Nikon has its tradition of reversals and backward changes. Thom Hogan has been hammering Nikon for years in his critical reviews on this pattern: eg his Z9 review. The lack/reconfiguring of such features, majority being menu settings, rarely detracts from the underlying core performance of the ILC, but the frustrations are more about fine tuning how one uses it, however.
The net length of Firmware Wishlists reflects our different priorities as to what's missing and would be really wonderful if it's added in a forthcoming update.
The big difference, since the Z System arrived, is Nikon is actually responding to at least some criticisms and requests : eg Exposure Delay has just returned to the Z9! But there's still rather longish list(s). These hopes are open ended, as gear heads are never entirely satisfied (!) :-
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Nevertheless, although the details are off topic, the Z8 and Z9 are still missing minor fixes and features.
One challenge is Nikon has its tradition of reversals and backward changes. Thom Hogan has been hammering Nikon for years in his critical reviews on this pattern: eg his Z9 review. The lack/reconfiguring of such features, majority being menu settings, rarely detracts from the underlying core performance of the ILC, but the frustrations are more about fine tuning how one uses it, however.
The net length of Firmware Wishlists reflects our different priorities as to what's missing and would be really wonderful if it's added in a forthcoming update.
The big difference, since the Z System arrived, is Nikon is actually responding to at least some criticisms and requests : eg Exposure Delay has just returned to the Z9! But there's still rather longish list(s). These hopes are open ended, as gear heads are never entirely satisfied (!) :-
My Z9 Update Wish List - I sent this to Nikon
List of Z9 firmware update suggestions So, I sent this list of ideas to Nikon for firmware updates easier this year and thought I'd share it with the board. So far, no joy (this was sent back in May I think), but who knows - maybe they'll take some of the suggestions to heart. The list below...
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Z9 firmware wish list
I’m curious, for those using Nikon’s Z9, now that version 2.0 has been released, what is still on your wish list for future firmware? I know some would like smaller form factor and some of you would like a Sony/Canon label slapped on, but curious what others think it’s lacking that could be...
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Z9 1st Impressions & Firmware Wishlist: Brad Hill
Thom Hogan dives straight into features about which many of us await enlightenment https://www.zsystemuser.com/z-mount-cameras/the-z9-blog/ "......Nikon had told me earlier that you couldn't turn subjection recognition on or off via a button. They're wrong. As Brad Hill has also noted, there's...
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