Official Nikon Z9 Launch, Info, and Discussion Thread

[DRwyoming]

Why aren't the F 70-200 2.8, the 80-400 and 500PF shown on this diagram?

These are only the Z mount lenses as indicated by the big title up and left there are no F mount lenses in this shot.

 

[BillW]

One thing I haven't heard addressed is how do the apertures of the F mount and even the new Z mount lenses work at 20, 30, 120 FPS. Nikon hasn't had a camera for F mount that has more than 14FPS. So we are to believe these lenses that could be decades old can work at 120 FPS?

I feel like that isn't likely. I also wonder how they made the aperture blades be able to work at 120FPS. Anyone else think about this?

Interesting Question. The Z9 brochure says you get AF and AE tracking in the 120 FPS mode. It also says it works with All Z lenses and 94 F mount lenses. Not sure if that is all the current F mount lenses or not.

From the brochure:

High-Speed Frame Capture+* at up to 120 fps –
revealing moments that last for less than 1/100
second

When you want to capture the exact moment such as a
high diver’s fingertips hitting the water or a tennis ball
momentarily deformed by the impact of the racket, the Z 9
offers new High-Speed Frame Capture+ with AF/AE
tracking. Rotating the release mode dial to the quick
release-mode selection and selecting C120, you can take
approx. 11-megapixel still images at 120 fps. This helps
press coverage by revealing amazing, previously invisible
moments that would otherwise be lost between the
frames. With C30, you can shoot approx. 45-megapixel
images at 30 fps.

* JPEG normal image quality only. The number of frames that can be shot is less
than that of high-speed continuous shooting. Use of a recommended card is
advised.

N E W F O U N D M O M E N T S
The Z 9’s high-speed continuous shooting compatible with
all NIKKOR Z and 94 NIKKOR F lenses vastly expands
the creative possibilities.

 

[DRwyoming]

Anyone else think about this?

You know as I think about this more I'm not sure Nikon has to do anything special to support fast frame rates, even 120 FPS. Current DSLRs support up to 1/8000" exposures and even if you just take one image the aperture has to close down to the dialed in setting very fast to support that shutter speed. Doing that 120 times a second doesn't seem to drive how fast the aperture closes any more than just a single, well exposed, fast exposure. Maybe I'm over simplifying the delay between pressing the shutter release and when that 1/8000" exposure begins(shutter lag) as that would be closer to how fast the Z9 would have to activate the aperture blades during a high speed sequence if it opened and closed them between each shot.

I guess we'll know more about this kind of stuff after it's been in the hands of independent reviewers but it's not clear to me that existing lenses couldn't keep up with 120 FPS based on what they have to do for very short exposures now.

 

[John Navitsky]

More, direct feedback on the speed of adapted glass:

You can only see EXIF info for this image if you are logged in.

 

[iustin]

I thought about that and since mirrorless cameras focus down to f:22 (maybe smaller but I have not seen anybody try), I wonder if they just close the aperture to the requested f stop and leave it there during the time of the burst (it's purely speculative on my part but I can't see how any of those lenses could open and close aperture 120 times per second).

EDIT - just saw DRWyoming had the same guess as I did.

The current Z cameras already meter/focus at the target aperture as long as it's at most f/5.6 - basically, what you see in the viewfinder is already "stopped" down, which is different from the DSLRs which had the "DOF preview" custom buttong assignment for this. Only if you stop down below f/5.6, will they need to switch apertures between metering/focusing and capture.

So it's possible that the fine print for the Z9 will say 20/30 FPS for up to f/5.6, or something like that.

 

[iustin]

Based on his own experience of developing sensors and image processing engines (probably at Panasonic), he believes that the vision of the planning and the designing of Z9 is extremely well focused. And he highly admires that the cooperation between the managers and the engineers have worked very well.

It is funny that he goes so far as to say that Panasonic should have been the first camera manufacturer ever to develop the technology of eliminating the mechanical shutter, because it was the first company to offer the interchangeable lens mirrorless camera. He says he would have been happy if only his bosses are like the ones of Nikon.

In the previous videos assessing Z6 and Z7, he pointed out that a flange back of 16mm could be very challenging for the engineers to pack the mechanical shutter unit, UV/IR-cut filter and the IBIS mechanism, compared to Canon and Sony whose flange backs are around 22mm. But now he admires the decision on the short 16mm flange back, if Nikon envisioned the omission of the shutter unit.

He considers that Z9 is a great proof of Nikon’s solid fundamental technology. Apparently, He almost compares Nikon having endured severe situation of being left behind Sony and Canon to La Comte de Monte-Cristo.

He also says that such a ground-breaking camera may suffer from the unbalanced performance caused by the unbalanced developing level of technology for each function of the camera. But he would choose to admire the challenging aspect of Z9 rather than nit-picking the unbalanced performance."

These are clearly the words of an engineer who had to deal with bad management/corporate culture and who deeply respects engineering provess. If indeed Nikon chose the small 16mm flange distance, with the thought of removing the shutter entirely, this was a brilliant, far-sighted move.

 

[DavidT]

You know as I think about this more I'm not sure Nikon has to do anything special to support fast frame rates, even 120 FPS. Current DSLRs support up to 1/8000" exposures and even if you just take one image the aperture has to close down to the dialed in setting very fast to support that shutter speed. Doing that 120 times a second doesn't seem to drive how fast the aperture closes any more than just a single, well exposed, fast exposure. Maybe I'm over simplifying the delay between pressing the shutter release and when that 1/8000" exposure begins(shutter lag) as that would be closer to how fast the Z9 would have to activate the aperture blades during a high speed sequence if it opened and closed them between each shot.

I guess we'll know more about this kind of stuff after it's been in the hands of independent reviewers but it's not clear to me that existing lenses couldn't keep up with 120 FPS based on what they have to do for very short exposures now.

I recall when they went to the E lenses for example one of the reasons was a redesign of the aperture to keep up with the newer high frame rates coming from cameras like the D5 and that sure isn't 120 FPS. I look forward to folks testing it. I don't see an issue on the camera side I just wonder about the lenses.

Sony for example can't do 30FPS on all lenses, the newer ones and GM lenses can but some of the older Zeiss or Sigma/Tamron lenses are limited to 15-20FPS. So sure Nikon might just be better at designing lenses than Sony but does a lens from say 20 years ago that many use in big primes be capable of moving optics and apertures to keep up with 120 or even 20-30 FPS? Time will tell.

 

[jmurthy]

Interesting. I could see that working. I was thinking what extra wear are we putting on aperture blades for lenses that likely had never been designed with thinking about 30 plus FPS. If they are only moving the aperture blades one time that makes a lot of sense. But then I wonder how low of f-stop can it hold closed and still perform AF to keep up with that frame rate. Could you be at F11 as an example and still maintain FPS and AF performance if you are keeping the aperture stopped down? As we look at super zooms with lower apertures of say 5.6, 6.3 and than using a tele you quickly are putting less light on the sensor for AF.

sorry for my comment, novice here and interested to learn.. why is the aperture blade in the lens acting like a shutter? it only controls the amount of light getting in i thought. The shutter is near the sensor typically and its all electronic on the Z9. the AF motors are being worked for continuous AF which is same on D500 maintaining focus or z9 following subjects. as far as i know, Hasselblads are the only cameras that have a shutter in the lens.. there could be others but not Nikon.

 

[fcotterill]

@iustin
The longer aim to move to a purely electronic shutter likely originated in primary R&D which interfaced with the planning early on within Nikon to move to a stacked sensor. Their 1" industrial stacked sensor was the first public evidence of the eventual outcome.

But these complicated sensors must surely have been the outcome of a protracted process, in which relied on strategic partnerships to fab prototype sensors, and ultimately the final product. Simulations and highly advanced in silico models of circuits etc can only get so far.

The throat/width architecture of the Z Mount is highly strategic. The design space has been taken to its limits in the 16mm throat, as tolerances are very tight to fit the shutter and protective screening(s), and minimize damage when lenses are changed. The very tight tolerances of the Z mount have probably taken the dimensions of the ILC lens mount to the absolute minimum. One outcome is it is impossible to adapt a Z lens to work on a rival mount.

This video is the latest in accumulating evidence that Nikon thought out the Z system with great care for the long term.

 

[DavidT]

sorry for my comment, novice here and interested to learn.. why is the aperture blade in the lens acting like a shutter? it only controls the amount of light getting in i thought. The shutter is near the sensor typically and its all electronic on the Z9. the AF motors are being worked for continuous AF which is same on D500 maintaining focus or z9 following subjects. as far as i know, Hasselblads are the only cameras that have a shutter in the lens.. there could be others but not Nikon.

I am addressing the aperture blades in the lens having to open and close if you aren't using it wide open. So say you have an F4 lens and you are using it at F5.6 when you take an image the lens stops down slightly closing the aperture blades inside of the lens and then reopening them. So you can imagine how quickly everything has to move at 120 FPS. Some older lenses aren't designed with this in mind. I suspect Nikon found a work around but none of us actually know how they did it yet.

 

[FB101]

The current Z cameras already meter/focus at the target aperture as long as it's at most f/5.6 - basically, what you see in the viewfinder is already "stopped" down, which is different from the DSLRs which had the "DOF preview" custom buttong assignment for this. Only if you stop down below f/5.6, will they need to switch apertures between metering/focusing and capture.

So it's possible that the fine print for the Z9 will say 20/30 FPS for up to f/5.6, or something like that.

The Canon R5 achieves continuous focus with the 800 f:11 lens + 2x multiplier which is a resulting F:22 aperture - not that I would ever recommend that set-up but it shows just how much more versatile the newest mirrorless AF systems are. So I can see the Z9 being able to focus with the aperture held closed continuously - the small print may say that the camera has to be in release priority and not focus priority and I'd be circumspect at how well the camera could track if indeed it closes the aperture continuously at f:16 or f:22 (the Canon does allow continuous AF at f:22 but I have never seen it used on a moving subject) but it seems the technology is available to make it happen.

And for the record, the only people I have talked to who use the 800 f:11 + 2x TC are avid birders for identification purposes - those are not award winning shots.

 

[DRwyoming]

sorry for my comment, novice here and interested to learn.. why is the aperture blade in the lens acting like a shutter? it only controls the amount of light getting in i thought. The shutter is near the sensor typically and its all electronic on the Z9. the AF motors are being worked for continuous AF which is same on D500 maintaining focus or z9 following subjects. as far as i know, Hasselblads are the only cameras that have a shutter in the lens.. there could be others but not Nikon.

As posted above it's about opening and closing those aperture blades quickly when taking photos.

Mirrorless cameras are different than DSLRs but start with how DSLRs operate. DLSRs operate in such a way that regardless of what aperture you dial in for your photo the focusing and metering are done with the lens wide open at its maximum aperture. Only when you release the shutter does the lens stop down to the correct aperture for the image and then when the shutter closes the lens opens back up to wide open aperture. That's not too tough at slower frame rates but there's some concern that that opening and closing of the aperture blades might struggle at 30 or 120 FPS shutter rates that and of course it's a lot of opening and closing of those blades for folks that do a lot of high speed bursts.

Nikon's current Z cameras are a bit different in that they will stop down the lens as far as f/5.6 if you have f/5.6 or a smaller aperture dialed between image captures but if you have something like f/8 or f/16 dialed in the Z cameras will still do a stop down as the shutter is being released. So the same basic concern exists, can the aperture blades, especially on the pre-E lenses that used a mechanical lever to control those aperture blades keep up with really fast frame rates? Hard to say at this point and maybe there are some caveats about selected aperture like @jmurthy posted above. IOW, if you're stopped down to f/5.6 or a wider aperture then there's really nothing to adjust on the fly as the MILCs already stop down that far for image viewing and focusing purposes but maybe there's some tradeoffs for faster FPS rates when you're stopped down further.

All hard to say at this point but this isn't concern about the shutter and as you say Nikon lenses don't have shutters in the lens itself but this is about the aperture blades closing down and then opening up quickly at high frame rates.

 

[wes]

As posted above it's about opening and closing those aperture blades quickly when taking photos.

Mirrorless cameras are different than DSLRs but start with how DSLRs operate. DLSRs operate in such a way that regardless of what aperture you dial in for your photo the focusing and metering are done with the lens wide open at its maximum aperture. Only when you release the shutter does the lens stop down to the correct aperture for the image and then when the shutter closes the lens opens back up to wide open aperture. That's not too tough at slower frame rates but there's some concern that that opening and closing of the aperture blades might struggle at 30 or 120 FPS shutter rates that and of course it's a lot of opening and closing of those blades for folks that do a lot of high speed bursts.

Nikon's current Z cameras are a bit different in that they will stop down the lens as far as f/5.6 if you have f/5.6 or a smaller aperture dialed between image captures but if you have something like f/8 or f/16 dialed in the Z cameras will still do a stop down as the shutter is being released. So the same basic concern exists, can the aperture blades, especially on the pre-E lenses that used a mechanical lever to control those aperture blades keep up with really fast frame rates? Hard to say at this point and maybe there are some caveats about selected aperture like @jmurthy posted above. IOW, if you're stopped down to f/5.6 or a wider aperture then there's really nothing to adjust on the fly as the MILCs already stop down that far for image viewing and focusing purposes but maybe there's some tradeoffs for faster FPS rates when you're stopped down further.

All hard to say at this point but this isn't concern about the shutter and as you say Nikon lenses don't have shutters in the lens itself but this is about the aperture blades closing down and then opening up quickly at high frame rates.

I'm staring down the lens on an A1 right now with a Sigma 105 macro and the blades move in real time meaning if I set it to F22 for example, the blades move to that position and stay there regardless of a shutter release. Same on the 200-600

 

[DRwyoming]

I'm staring down the lens on an A1 right now with a Sigma 105 macro and the blades move in real time meaning if I set it to F22 for example, the blades move to that position and stay there regardless of a shutter release. Same on the 200-600

Cool, that probably explains why only some Sony lenses are suitable for the fastest frame rates. Should be interesting to see if Nikon takes that same approach or has done something different with the Z9.

Several of the early reviews said that the Z9 supports a huge range of legacy F mount lenses. My bet is it's more subtle than that and either those lenses have to be shot at certain apertures or there's some other tradeoff when using the older glass that hasn't been tested or discussed yet. I'd expect the native Z mount lenses and the newest E FL lenses to work with the fewest constraints but I'd expect some kind of performance tradeoff with G mount and older lenses. I suspect we'll know more when the Z9 gets into the hands of folks that aren't as closely associated with Nikon as the initial previewers.

 

[wes]

Cool, that probably explains why only some Sony lenses are suitable for the fastest frame rates. Should be interesting to see if Nikon takes that same approach or does something different with the Z9.

Several of the early reviews said that the Z9 supports a huge range of legacy F mount lenses. My bet is it's more subtle than that and either those lenses have to be shot at certain apertures or there's some other tradeoff when using the older glass that hasn't been tested or discussed yet. I'd expect the native Z mount lenses and the newest E FL lenses to work with the fewest constraints but I'd expect some kind of performance tradeoff with G mount and older lenses. I suspect we'll know more when the Z9 gets into the hands of folks that aren't as closely associated with Nikon as the initial previewers.

Tamron 17-28 G1 works the same way too. I will have hands on with the Z9 tomorrow night and I can test with whatever lenses they have

 

[DRwyoming]

Tamron 17-28 G1 works the same way too. I will have hands on with the Z9 tomorrow night and I can test with whatever lenses they have

Awesome, would be interesting to see if Nikon works the same as Sony and if so will a G lens (or older lens that uses the mechanical aperture coupling) support the high speed frame rates when stopped down to say f/22? And if it does, are the exposures consistent from shot to shot?

 

[jmurthy]

As posted above it's about opening and closing those aperture blades quickly when taking photos.

Mirrorless cameras are different than DSLRs but start with how DSLRs operate. DLSRs operate in such a way that regardless of what aperture you dial in for your photo the focusing and metering are done with the lens wide open at its maximum aperture. Only when you release the shutter does the lens stop down to the correct aperture for the image and then when the shutter closes the lens opens back up to wide open aperture. That's not too tough at slower frame rates but there's some concern that that opening and closing of the aperture blades might struggle at 30 or 120 FPS shutter rates that and of course it's a lot of opening and closing of those blades for folks that do a lot of high speed bursts.

Nikon's current Z cameras are a bit different in that they will stop down the lens as far as f/5.6 if you have f/5.6 or a smaller aperture dialed between image captures but if you have something like f/8 or f/16 dialed in the Z cameras will still do a stop down as the shutter is being released. So the same basic concern exists, can the aperture blades, especially on the pre-E lenses that used a mechanical lever to control those aperture blades keep up with really fast frame rates? Hard to say at this point and maybe there are some caveats about selected aperture like @jmurthy posted above. IOW, if you're stopped down to f/5.6 or a wider aperture then there's really nothing to adjust on the fly as the MILCs already stop down that far for image viewing and focusing purposes but maybe there's some tradeoffs for faster FPS rates when you're stopped down further.

All hard to say at this point but this isn't concern about the shutter and as you say Nikon lenses don't have shutters in the lens itself but this is about the aperture blades closing down and then opening up quickly at high frame rates.

thank you all! learnt a new thing today!! but i wonder if the dslr cams were designed in a way so that their auto focus mechanism ( which is separate from the sensor) needs more light to focus as it cannot depend on sensor amplification ( ie ISO). Hence the blades open and stop down between frames?
in a mirrorless, the sensor is the focus mechanism and hence it can keep the blades at the set aperture and focus based on sensor read out? just my uneducated guess

 

[BillW]

Cool, that probably explains why only some Sony lenses are suitable for the fastest frame rates. Should be interesting to see if Nikon takes that same approach or does something different with the Z9.

Several of the early reviews said that the Z9 supports a huge range of legacy F mount lenses. My bet is it's more subtle than that and either those lenses have to be shot at certain apertures or there's some other tradeoff when using the older glass that hasn't been tested or discussed yet. I'd expect the native Z mount lenses and the newest E FL lenses to work with the fewest constraints but I'd expect some kind of performance tradeoff with G mount and older lenses. I suspect we'll know more when the Z9 gets into the hands of folks that aren't as closely associated with Nikon as the initial previewers.

Nikon product manager Marc Cruz's introductory video on the Z9 mentions 360 compatible F mount lenses for the Z9 generally (and not in the context of high speed shooting). The Z9 brochure says that 94 F mount lenses work with "high-speed continuous shooting." Obviously manual lenses and screw-drive lenses would not autofocus. I don't know the number of other F mount Nikkors to know if 94 picks up all the others?

 

[DRwyoming]

thank you all! learnt a new thing today!! but i wonder if the dslr cams were designed in a way so that their auto focus mechanism ( which is separate from the sensor) needs more light to focus as it cannot depend on sensor amplification ( ie ISO). Hence the blades open and stop down between frames?
in a mirrorless, the sensor is the focus mechanism and hence it can keep the blades at the set aperture and focus based on sensor read out? just my uneducated guess

Yeah, DSLRs typically need more light to focus but perhaps more importantly they need a wider aperture. DSLR through the viewfinder focusing takes the incoming image light, splits it into two beams with orthogonal polarization and splits it off to the PDAF sensor. Those polarized beams are split apart from one another and need some distance between them. If you use a lens or lens plus TC combo that yields an aperture smaller than f/8 you start interfering with those polarized light paths that feed the AF sensor. It's why DSLRs are limited to the center most AF points as you use an f/8 lens (wide open aperture, not what's dialed in) and why we don't have full frame DSLRs that will reliably auto focus with a lens that has an aperture smaller than f/8 wide open. BTW, one trick with modern DSLRs if you do have a lens that's beyond the f/8 limit like a 500mm PF with a 2x TC is to shoot in Live View mode if you have a cooperative subject. Live View uses the main image sensor similar but not exactly the same as a MILC does and isn't limited to the same f/8 aperture.

MILCs using on-sensor hybrid PD/CD AF don't use that beam splitting approach and aren't limited to f/8 the way DSLRs are.

 

[Utah Dave]

Another excellent review with plenty of footage.

Around the 29th minute mark the photographer shows samples of Osprey flight shots with 500 pf attached to a 1.4 x tc.

The 4k 120 FPS can also be shot with a 2.3x crop! That's great for shooting wildlife video especially of static subjects.

This brings up some questions for me! Is this camera so advanced that it can focus that cleanly with a teleconverter, AND out to the edges of the frame? This would be incredible! I have the same setup with my D5 (500pf and 1.4x tele) and there is no way I could focus in the areas he was.

 

[EricBowles]

As posted above it's about opening and closing those aperture blades quickly when taking photos.

Mirrorless cameras are different than DSLRs but start with how DSLRs operate. DLSRs operate in such a way that regardless of what aperture you dial in for your photo the focusing and metering are done with the lens wide open at its maximum aperture. Only when you release the shutter does the lens stop down to the correct aperture for the image and then when the shutter closes the lens opens back up to wide open aperture. That's not too tough at slower frame rates but there's some concern that that opening and closing of the aperture blades might struggle at 30 or 120 FPS shutter rates that and of course it's a lot of opening and closing of those blades for folks that do a lot of high speed bursts.

Nikon's current Z cameras are a bit different in that they will stop down the lens as far as f/5.6 if you have f/5.6 or a smaller aperture dialed between image captures but if you have something like f/8 or f/16 dialed in the Z cameras will still do a stop down as the shutter is being released. So the same basic concern exists, can the aperture blades, especially on the pre-E lenses that used a mechanical lever to control those aperture blades keep up with really fast frame rates? Hard to say at this point and maybe there are some caveats about selected aperture like @jmurthy posted above. IOW, if you're stopped down to f/5.6 or a wider aperture then there's really nothing to adjust on the fly as the MILCs already stop down that far for image viewing and focusing purposes but maybe there's some tradeoffs for faster FPS rates when you're stopped down further.

All hard to say at this point but this isn't concern about the shutter and as you say Nikon lenses don't have shutters in the lens itself but this is about the aperture blades closing down and then opening up quickly at high frame rates.

Part of the issue with focus on the sensor is a wide open aperture on a fast lens is completely out of focus - just a blur. It can make focus slower if you tried to focus wide open because you could not estimate how much the lens elements needed to move. At f/5.6 you enter the realm of reasonable focus speed because the subject is easier to recognize.

While the camera normally focuses with an f/5.6 aperture, if you are at f/2.8, f/8 or f/11 in a burst, the camera is not having to make a big change in the position of aperture blades. With electronic aperture, the operation is very fast. More importantly, once the subject is in focus at the start of a burst, I'm not sure it really needs to move back to f/5.6 each time to allow on sensor AF to work as desired. They could just as easily simply maintain focus on the sensor and adjust if the AF plane of the subject changes during a high speed burst. I would assume they do that anyway because I am seeing focus adjustments for birds in flight being tracked. So changing focus is not a problem.

 

[BillW]

This brings up some questions for me! Is this camera so advanced that it can focus that cleanly with a teleconverter, AND out to the edges of the frame? This would be incredible! I have the same setup with my D5 (500pf and 1.4x tele) and there is no way I could focus in the areas he was.

The Z7, Z7II, Z6 and Z6II can already do that -- use a TC with accurate AF and all the focus points covering the frame available. At least for f8, f9.5 and f11 combinations I have tried: the 500 mm PF with the 1.4x TCIII, 1.7x TCII and 2x TC III. The Z9 will of course do better with action.

 

[FB101]

This brings up some questions for me! Is this camera so advanced that it can focus that cleanly with a teleconverter, AND out to the edges of the frame? This would be incredible! I have the same setup with my D5 (500pf and 1.4x tele) and there is no way I could focus in the areas he was.

That IS the beauty of on-sensor AF - I have tested the Sony 200-600 + 1.4TC on the A1 and I could only detect one clear impact - on lower contrast scenes (ie right before sunrise) the camera really struggled detecting eyes with that set-up when it could find them without the 1.4TC (and in that situation the eye was actually smaller), but everything else worked like a charm. If I compare that to the 500pf + 1.4TC on the D500, well there is no comparison.
So I would expect nothing less from the Z9 (and the Z7ii and Z6ii despite their flaws actually did better than dSLRs already).

 

[iustin]

While the camera normally focuses with an f/5.6 aperture, if you are at f/2.8, f/8 or f/11 in a burst, the camera is not having to make a big change in the position of aperture blades. With electronic aperture, the operation is very fast. More importantly, once the subject is in focus at the start of a burst, I'm not sure it really needs to move back to f/5.6 each time to allow on sensor AF to work as desired.

My understanding is different. You seem to imply that the camera always focuses/meters af f/5.6? What I read is that between f/0.01 and f/5.6, the camera will focus/meter at whatever your current aperture is. Once your set aperture moves beyond f/5.6 (f/6.3 and higher), the lens stays at f/5.6 (or fully open, if it's a slower lens) and only when shotting it stops down.

 

[RugglesZ9]

Thats a bummer for RAW shooters

Thats a bummer for RAW shooters

20 fps, RAW, is a bummer? I'm pretty excited about it.