fcotterill
Well-known member
Nikon Asia....
Official Nikon Z9 Launch, Info, and Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Steve
- Start date
If you would like to post, you'll need to register. Note that if you have a BCG store account, you'll need a new, separate account here (we keep the two sites separate for security purposes).
Darwin
Well-known member
Live discussion about Z9 today at noon ET.
They would need a new sensor for a DX…but having already developed the FF version just making a lower MP version one at the same pitch and giving it 24 or 21 or whatever the math works out to isn’t a huge design change…especially if they were thinking ahead and engineered the two sensor versions at the same time. A DX version wouldn’t be a whole new sensor.
zule11
Active member
another video with real time usage and AF performance
DaleJr
Member
I also think they would more than make up for it in orders. I assume the DX version will sell 5x as much as the z9. When you lower a price, it has an exponetional gain in units sold if there is a demand. You might sell one z9 at $5,500 vs 5 z90s at $2,500.
FB101
Well-known member
It's actually 19mp hence their issue - I doubt they want to launch any camera below 20MP. The sony 51MP sensor translates to 21MP in DX which is ideal to do a cheaper, scaled down DX version of the same sensor.
That's why the D500 sensor was always it's own thing instead of a D850 scale down.
fcotterill
Well-known member
Here is a follow up in the NG thread by the technical expert in Japan, who has shared this video, with his kind help by translating the key points of the video:
"...Here are the comments in the video I consider essential.
He suspects that the sensor was developed by Tower Semiconductor (formerly called Tower Jazz) based on the technology they had established when they developed their 1” stack BSI sensor.
He calculates that the electronic shutter “curtain” should run only slightly slower than a mechanical 1/8000 shutter unit, which at the same time keeps its rolling shutter effect at almost the same level as that caused by a mechanical 1/8000 shutter.
And the 1/32,000 sec. exposure time is enabled thanks to the fact that an electronic shutter is free from the mechanical instability which makes it difficult to keep the extremely narrow slit for the 1/32,000 sec.
He was impressed by the fact that the brave decision to eliminate the mechanical shutter altogether was made neither by Canon or Sony but by Nikon! He also points out that the development of a mechanical shutter of this level would have cost extremely high, and its manufacturing process would be extremely complicated, which would raise the production cost even more. (I think this is part of the reason for the relatively low price of Z9 for a flagship model packed with the game-changing new technology).
He also suspects that the engineers could concentrate on the development of other technologies like the image stabilization because they didn’t need to worry about the development of a new shutter unit.
He also assesses the Expeed 7 processor to be at least comparable to the image processor of Canon’ R3, enabling 8k video, fast read-out of the sensor data and Ai-enforced AF. The Expeed 7 can take full advantage of the blindingly fast sensor.
The resolution of EVF is 3.69MP which is relatively low, compared to those of the higher-end models of other manufacturers. He thinks that the resolution could be the highest data rate possible to enable the “dual streaming processing”.
In the video, he doesn’t make an elaborate comparison to Canon R3, the potential direct rival of Z9, because Z9 is worldly different from R3!
Based on his own experience of developing sensors and image processing engines (probably at Panasonic), he believes that the vision of the planning and the designing of Z9 is extremely well focused. And he highly admires that the cooperation between the managers and the engineers have worked very well.
It is funny that he goes so far as to say that Panasonic should have been the first camera manufacturer ever to develop the technology of eliminating the mechanical shutter, because it was the first company to offer the interchangeable lens mirrorless camera. He says he would have been happy if only his bosses are like the ones of Nikon.
In the previous videos assessing Z6 and Z7, he pointed out that a flange back of 16mm could be very challenging for the engineers to pack the mechanical shutter unit, UV/IR-cut filter and the IBIS mechanism, compared to Canon and Sony whose flange backs are around 22mm. But now he admires the decision on the short 16mm flange back, if Nikon envisioned the omission of the shutter unit.
He considers that Z9 is a great proof of Nikon’s solid fundamental technology. Apparently, He almost compares Nikon having endured severe situation of being left behind Sony and Canon to La Comte de Monte-Cristo.
He also says that such a ground-breaking camera may suffer from the unbalanced performance caused by the unbalanced developing level of technology for each function of the camera. But he would choose to admire the challenging aspect of Z9 rather than nit-picking the unbalanced performance."
"...Here are the comments in the video I consider essential.
He suspects that the sensor was developed by Tower Semiconductor (formerly called Tower Jazz) based on the technology they had established when they developed their 1” stack BSI sensor.
He calculates that the electronic shutter “curtain” should run only slightly slower than a mechanical 1/8000 shutter unit, which at the same time keeps its rolling shutter effect at almost the same level as that caused by a mechanical 1/8000 shutter.
And the 1/32,000 sec. exposure time is enabled thanks to the fact that an electronic shutter is free from the mechanical instability which makes it difficult to keep the extremely narrow slit for the 1/32,000 sec.
He was impressed by the fact that the brave decision to eliminate the mechanical shutter altogether was made neither by Canon or Sony but by Nikon! He also points out that the development of a mechanical shutter of this level would have cost extremely high, and its manufacturing process would be extremely complicated, which would raise the production cost even more. (I think this is part of the reason for the relatively low price of Z9 for a flagship model packed with the game-changing new technology).
He also suspects that the engineers could concentrate on the development of other technologies like the image stabilization because they didn’t need to worry about the development of a new shutter unit.
He also assesses the Expeed 7 processor to be at least comparable to the image processor of Canon’ R3, enabling 8k video, fast read-out of the sensor data and Ai-enforced AF. The Expeed 7 can take full advantage of the blindingly fast sensor.
The resolution of EVF is 3.69MP which is relatively low, compared to those of the higher-end models of other manufacturers. He thinks that the resolution could be the highest data rate possible to enable the “dual streaming processing”.
In the video, he doesn’t make an elaborate comparison to Canon R3, the potential direct rival of Z9, because Z9 is worldly different from R3!
Based on his own experience of developing sensors and image processing engines (probably at Panasonic), he believes that the vision of the planning and the designing of Z9 is extremely well focused. And he highly admires that the cooperation between the managers and the engineers have worked very well.
It is funny that he goes so far as to say that Panasonic should have been the first camera manufacturer ever to develop the technology of eliminating the mechanical shutter, because it was the first company to offer the interchangeable lens mirrorless camera. He says he would have been happy if only his bosses are like the ones of Nikon.
In the previous videos assessing Z6 and Z7, he pointed out that a flange back of 16mm could be very challenging for the engineers to pack the mechanical shutter unit, UV/IR-cut filter and the IBIS mechanism, compared to Canon and Sony whose flange backs are around 22mm. But now he admires the decision on the short 16mm flange back, if Nikon envisioned the omission of the shutter unit.
He considers that Z9 is a great proof of Nikon’s solid fundamental technology. Apparently, He almost compares Nikon having endured severe situation of being left behind Sony and Canon to La Comte de Monte-Cristo.
He also says that such a ground-breaking camera may suffer from the unbalanced performance caused by the unbalanced developing level of technology for each function of the camera. But he would choose to admire the challenging aspect of Z9 rather than nit-picking the unbalanced performance."
I just ok 5he 24x36 vs 16x24 radio and got 20… ut if it’s really 19 then some additional engineering over scaling would be needed to get to 2@ or 24 or whatever…but it’s still simpler than a whole new sensor. They could just use the sensor from the Z50…but not being stacked it wouldn’t get all of the Zo AF improvements even with the Expeed 7…but it might get enough to be worth it…but readout speed would limit the FPS somewhat. Whether we will see our desired mirrorless D500 is up in the air I guess.
John Navitsky
Well-known member
so i mean this as an honest question. wouldn't an expeed 7 powered z6 compare favorably with a d500? and, fwiw, i'm a d500 shooter. i understand the design work for a dx version of the stacked sensor isn't hard, and yah, i think they'd sell a lot of those, but i'm guessing they'd sell MORE z6iii, z7iii cameras.
zule11
Active member
Another Live event later today, with Q & A, with Seth Miranda and Ricci, might be interesting
FB101
Well-known member
Those darn approximations.
The useable pixels for the D850 in FX are 45.44mp (45,441,024 to be exact)
The D850 in DX is 19.47mp (19,468,800 precisely)
If you do the math exactly, that translates to an FX to DX ratio of 1.528 instead of the commonly referred to 1.5
I don't know exactly what the Z9 numbers will be and Nikon could squeeze 20mp out of the DX area of the Z9 sensor assuming the lenses can accommodate a very slightly bigger image circle, but they have not done it on the Z7ii where they use the exact same ratio as on the D850.
On the Z6ii they use a ratio that is 1.534, same as in the D810.
So for some reason they don't seem to get to that magical 1.5 that would deliver just over 20mp in DX format but it might be different with this new sensor. Canon uses something closer to 1.6 cropping factor and I am not sure what Sony uses - I couldn't find their data easily.
Update on this. Looks like Adorama ran out of stock on the ProGrade Cobalts and mine never shipped. So I am stuck waiting on refills like many others.
I ordered one from B&H and I got the message that it was shipped. Looks like there are more in stock...
Darwin
Well-known member
I ordered the Delkin Black 128 since they have the highest min write speed. Just went to order another after thinking about it and SOLD OUT. My first order has shipped so that will be good for now. But I called it, knew this would happen.
John Navitsky
Well-known member
If it's any consolation, the media backlog will probably clear before the Z9 backlog 
Darwin
Well-known member
Fingers crossed I won't be in the backlog.If it's any consolation, the media backlog will probably clear before the Z9 backlog
John Navitsky
Well-known member
Tidbit: Michael Corrado just stated in the B&H Live Panel Discussion that the Z9 drove his f-mount glass as fast as any other body he's used.
One thing I haven't heard addressed is how do the apertures of the F mount and even the new Z mount lenses work at 20, 30, 120 FPS. Nikon hasn't had a camera for F mount that has more than 14FPS. So we are to believe these lenses that could be decades old can work at 120 FPS?
I feel like that isn't likely. I also wonder how they made the aperture blades be able to work at 120FPS. Anyone else think about this?
I feel like that isn't likely. I also wonder how they made the aperture blades be able to work at 120FPS. Anyone else think about this?
Darwin
Well-known member
Ive seen videos of the 500 pf do 125 FPS. Here at the 14 min mark you can see 20 FPS with perfect AF with an F mount 200mm F2
I've thought about this a bit. My guess is that at 120 FPS the camera doesn't open and close the aperture with each captured image and basically has a bit of delay/hysteresis in the aperture control whether electronic (E lenses) or mechanical so that the aperture only closes down to working aperture as the first image is captured and then holds that until the 120 FPS series is complete. That might not be what they're doing but I doubt they're opening and closing the aperture at 120 FPS.
In terms of the more typical frame rate, a couple of reviewers have made the claim that 30 FPS is supported by many if not most existing F mount lenses. I'd love to hear more detail on this as it sure seems like it would be more nuanced that that. For instance if you have something like an F mount 500mm f/4 G lens that still uses a mechanical aperture control will that lens keep up with 30 FPS shooting when stopped down to f/22 as that requires a fair amount of motion on the aperture blades and control linkage? Seems like a tall order. Of course they could play a similar game to what I'm guessing they're doing at 120 FPS and hold the aperture during high speed bursts but in both cases it makes you wonder how quickly they can control aperture for that first image in the series even if they don't open and close the aperture between each capture.
This is one of the many operational details I'd like to see someone drill into. Do all modern F mount lenses actually keep up at 20 and 30 FPS much less 120 FPS or is it limited to E lenses with electronic aperture control? If the older G and other mechanically controlled aperture lenses do keep up with the higher frame rates, how is Nikon pulling that off for 20, 30 and 120 FPS. I'm guessing it will be a while before that kind of thing is publicly understood.
Interesting. I could see that working. I was thinking what extra wear are we putting on aperture blades for lenses that likely had never been designed with thinking about 30 plus FPS. If they are only moving the aperture blades one time that makes a lot of sense. But then I wonder how low of f-stop can it hold closed and still perform AF to keep up with that frame rate. Could you be at F11 as an example and still maintain FPS and AF performance if you are keeping the aperture stopped down? As we look at super zooms with lower apertures of say 5.6, 6.3 and than using a tele you quickly are putting less light on the sensor for AF.
Yeah, those are exactly the kind of questions this brings up and something I'd like to see someone test in detail. For instance if they did the stop down and hold approach at high frame rates and assuming they could stop down to the len's minimum aperture in time to get the first frame exposed correctly what implication might that have on AF operation as you say? IOW, it's pretty easy to say all lenses are compatible with those high frame rates but what if any tradeoffs occur?
Time will tell on so much of this...
FB101
Well-known member
I thought about that and since mirrorless cameras focus down to f:22 (maybe smaller but I have not seen anybody try), I wonder if they just close the aperture to the requested f stop and leave it there during the time of the burst (it's purely speculative on my part but I can't see how any of those lenses could open and close aperture 120 times per second).
EDIT - just saw DRWyoming had the same guess as I did.
John Navitsky
Well-known member
FWIW, I recall some of the Sony sport bodies have some limitations about exposure when doing high frame rates (like locking in the exposure at the beginning of the burst). My memory is a bit fuzzy here tho. I wouldn't be totally surprised if the same applies here.
Why aren't the F 70-200 2.8, the 80-400 and 500PF shown on this diagram?