The Case for LR over Classic?

[NorthernFocus]

Hmm, so what I do is have LR Classic running on a laptop when traveling, and then do "import from another catalog" in LR Classic back home on the desktop, which preserves any edits I made. I find in practice I don't make a lot of edits when traveling ... mostly some culling, a bit of editing on the better shots. But my laptop is slow and my desktop is fast. If I really *needed* to do more serious editing when traveling, I'd have a fast laptop.

You don't even have to bother with "import from catalog" if you have your travel catalog store changes to XMP files. You can just import the files into you master catalog and the XMP files containing edits will come with them. The only real benefit of importing from another catalog is to maintain the catalog structure(i.e. folders and and stacking). Other than organizational associations between files all of the edits, keywords, ratings, etc, are stored in the XMP files. IMO the "import from catalog" feature is a bit clunky. But I just use a date based organizational structure so it's simple.

 

[PhotoLover]

You don't even have to bother with "import from catalog" if you have your travel catalog store changes to XMP files. You can just import the files into you master catalog and the XMP files containing edits will come with them. The only real benefit of importing from another catalog is to maintain the catalog structure(i.e. folders and and stacking). Other than organizational associations between files all of the edits, keywords, ratings, etc, are stored in the XMP files. IMO the "import from catalog" feature is a bit clunky. But I just use a date based organizational structure so it's simple.

You are right, but when traveling I generally go ahead and create a collection (Fun Photo Trip X), rename all the files, do at least a first pass of culling and maybe edit a few of the better ones. And I'm one of those diehard sidecar file haters, so I don't want to pollute my directories with XMP files. Occasionally on some vacations I'll also organize the photos into folders (Day in XYZ, Day in ABC, etc) and it all just carries over with import from catalog.

That said, I agree the import from catalog work flow is a touch clunky, but it works best for the way I do things (of course said workflow might not be good for others).

 

[Ken Miracle]

That's an improvement. Can you search then as you can in Classic, such as with a certain lens, keywords, etc?

Even he changed his mind:

I Screwed Up Yesterday | Matt Kloskowski

mattk.com

not really just clarifyied what he said

 

[Ken Miracle]

I may use LR as a browser culler only in liu of Photo Mechanic if it is fast with thousands of raw Z9 files to sort through after a long birding day and that would save me $.

However since I have to search through thousands of bird photos in a hurry using a hierarchical keyword structure, have to know locations for e bird and use the map module and print module on a regular basis that makes using only LR in it's current state not nearly as good for me as LRC and Matt K agreed for my case.

As @aolander does I use only one catalog and have not had problems.

I keep all images, my catalog and presets on one external OWC high speed SSD drive connected via thunderbolt to my mac studio. I have 2 more of those and 2 slightly slower ones that I make exact copies to using carbon copy cloner. One is always in my safety deposit box and I rotate it out about once a month.

I name the drives in such a way so that all I have to do is rename one of the back up drives by taking a number off the end ie. drive1 drive2 etc.. become drive and LRC does not know that it is a different drive. I can also plug my drive into my macbook pro and use it just like I would on my mac studio.

 

[Winston Churchill (Sir)]

ACR doesn't "bake edits into the RAW file". I'm not positive but pretty sure that the only software that does that is NX Studio. And even then the change are still editable. If you're not using LR/LRC then where are the XMP files coming from?

It kind of does it if you do your raw edits - then either open the file in PS directly - or save it as For example) as a .psd and then open the .psd. The only way to get back to those raw edits - is to start over again. Whereas if you do the raw edits on a layer (filter /damera raw filter), you have a layer to delete, or edit

I open my files in ACR - do BASIC minimal edits there - then save out as a .psd. A sidecar file is created and stored in the file with the Raw (as a .xmp file under the .NEF )

I hope I answered your question properly

 

[NorthernFocus]

It kind of does it if you do your raw edits - then either open the file in PS directly - or save it as For example) as a .psd and then open the .psd. The only way to get back to those raw edits - is to start over again. Whereas if you do the raw edits on a layer (filter /damera raw filter), you have a layer to delete, or edit

In your previous post you said the changes are backed into the RAW file. Typical use of the term "baked in" means a permanent/unalterable change to the file. What you said here is correct. Your ACR edits are "baked into" the PSD, not the RAW file. When you generate the PSD the base layer is effectively a tiff built from the edits you made in ACR. The PSD(aka PhotoShop Document) is a container with layers of tiff images plus instructions for how they fit together. That's why PSD files are so huge.

I open my files in ACR - do BASIC minimal edits there - then save out as a .psd. A sidecar file is created and stored in the file with the Raw (as a .xmp file under the .NEF )

Just so. The sidecar file is created by ACR. The original RAW file is left untouched. Nothing is "baked in".

 

[Winston Churchill (Sir)]

In your previous post you said the changes are backed into the RAW file. Typical use of the term "baked in" means a permanent/unalterable change to the file. What you said here is correct. Your ACR edits are "baked into" the PSD, not the RAW file. When you generate the PSD the base layer is effectively a tiff built from the edits you made in ACR. The PSD(aka PhotoShop Document) is a container with layers of tiff images plus instructions for how they fit together. That's why PSD files are so huge.


Just so. The sidecar file is created by ACR. The original RAW file is left untouched. Nothing is "baked in".

I think you are missing my point Dan. I am aware you can delete the side car - or make changes to it. but once you take it into photosho and build on top of those changes - you cant undo them without going back to your RAW file

 

[PaulBCT]

Matt Kloskowski (website mattk.com) has an excellent piece on why LR and not LRc might be preferable, in which he answers many of the above questions. He is selling a tutorial for $40. I have found his instructional works to be excellent.

 

[bleirer]

Once either Lightroom or ACR sends a file to Photoshop as either a tiff or psd it has baked in whatever edits were made in lightroom or acr. When the camera raw filter is opened in photoshop it is editing the baked in changes not the raw. The camera raw filter has most of the same tools as acr or Lightroom but it is working like any filter. The proof of that is you can open a jpeg and use the camera raw filter on it. Another proof would be if one made some drastic change in lightroom, for example moving the whites so high they blow out. Once sent to Photoshop one can no longer recover those whites using the camera raw filter because they are baked in.

You can see slight differences in the camera raw filter vs. Lightroom or ACR, . For example changing profiles are no longer an option except for black and white, color temperture no longer has a dropdown menu or a place to type Kelvin, and other things only available to raw files. It is adding to or fighting against whatever was baked in.

If one wants to maintain full control of the original raw they would send it to Photoshop from lightroom or ACR as a smart object (I don't think Lightroom not classic can do this or even send files to Photoshop directly). As a smart object sent from lightroom or acr Photoshop one can double click the thumbnail and get full access to the original raw edits made previously without anything being baked in. It is a layer in Photoshop but the edits done previously in Lightroom or ACR can be woken up and altered. Even better one can copy that layer using "new smart object via copy" and have independent acr control over the raw edits in a new layer that can be masked.

 

[NorthernFocus]

I think you are missing my point Dan. I am aware you can delete the side car - or make changes to it. but once you take it into photosho and build on top of those changes - you cant undo them without going back to your RAW file

I was just responding to:

... so I use ACR on a non destructive layer. Far better than baking the edits into your Raw file at the start...

Based on further explanation what you meant was baking the edits into the PSD not the RAW file. I get it.

 

[Butlerkid]

I use Bridge/ACR to cull, rate, apply hierarchical keywords and process raw's on my hard disks. (The raw processing is the same as used in the LR develop module.) Then I open them in Photoshop and finish any needed processing.

ONLY THEN do I import into LR Classic to take advantage of the catalogue feature.

I just don't see a reason to change my current process.

 

[bleirer]

I use Bridge/ACR to cull, rate, apply hierarchial keywords and process raw's on my hard disks. (The raw processing is the same as used in the LR develop module.) Then I open them in Photoshop and finish any needed processing.

ONLY THEN do I import into LR to take advantage of the catalogue feature.

I just don't see a reason to change my current process.

That's pretty much how I do it except I use lightroom where you use bridge/ACR. Then in my case photolab is in the mix as a lightroom plugin, then on to Photoshop as a smart object then back to lightroom only for the library and organization. I think the develop module of Lightroom and acr are identical except there are minor differences in the interface. ACR also has the ability to send objects to Photoshop.

 

[NorthernFocus]

I use Bridge/ACR to cull, rate, apply hierarchical keywords and process raw's on my hard disks. (The raw processing is the same as used in the LR develop module.) Then I open them in Photoshop and finish any needed processing.

ONLY THEN do I import into LR Classic to take advantage of the catalogue feature.

I just don't see a reason to change my current process.

Is there an advantage to Bridge/ACR over LRC or is it simply what you're used to? Seems simpler just to import straight into LRC, do basic editing, then jump out to PS if/when more in depth/layer editing is needed.

It took me a long time to realize it but now I find the use of collections to be hugely beneficial for culling/editing large numbers of images. So I employ them early on in the workflow. Like many things now that I use them I'd find it hard to give up.

 

[Anjin San]

That is correct. No sidecars.

Mine saves xmp files back to the same folder…and the file lightroomlibrary.lrlibrary is on the drive but was last modified several months ago and I edited some files in LR today and yesterday…so I have no idea what it is used for. Edited a cloud file as well and the lrlibrary file did. It get modified.

 

[Anjin San]

1. I'm curious. Some folks have mentioned that they don't like catalogs. May I ask why?
2. Has anyone watched https://www.youtube.com/@TerryLeeWhite videos? He's a Lightroom teacher for Adobe. I've learned a lot from him.

I think it’s a matter of they are a different beast than a file browser, and do not actually contain the images but a link to where LrC thinks the images are…and moving things in Finder breaks the link. People understand how a file browser works…and while a catalog also works…it is a different beast.

 

[StarTracker50]

People understand how a file browser works…and while a catalog also works…it is a different beast.

Understand that, but if you use it as Lightroom as your file browser, it pretty much works exactly like that. And if you set your catalog to back up and check integrity every time you close, you never have to worry about it.

 

[Butlerkid]

Is there an advantage to Bridge/ACR over LRC or is it simply what you're used to? Seems simpler just to import straight into LRC, do basic editing, then jump out to PS if/when more in depth/layer editing is needed.

It took me a long time to realize it but now I find the use of collections to be hugely beneficial for culling/editing large numbers of images. So I employ them early on in the workflow. Like many things now that I use them I'd find it hard to give up.

1. For me.....I don't have to import ALL my images into Lr to then cull. Since my keepers are usually much less than 10% of my shots, why should I transfer images to my PC and into LR when they will quickly be deleted?

2. I'm guessing that I use keywords (and maybe ratings?) much like you use Collections. But keywords have many uses as they are saved in the metadata and available in many applications, such as when I upload to my website.

 

[NorthernFocus]

1. For me.....I don't have to import ALL my images into Lr to then cull. Since my keepers are usually much less than 10% of my shots, why should I transfer images to my PC and into LR when they will quickly be deleted?

2. I'm guessing that I use keywords (and maybe ratings?) much like you use Collections. But keywords have many uses as they are saved in the metadata and available in many applications, such as when I upload to my website.

I'm completely ignorant of how Bridge works. So are you saying that images that are still on a card can be opened in Bridge prior to import? Limited hard drive space when working on a laptop and a huge number of files to go through can indeed be a challenge. Thankfully nowadays it can all be done by importing the files to an external SSD as a working disk with no meaningful loss of speed.

Collection are in addition to not in lieu of keywords. They're a very easy/convenient way to temporarily associate images without creating a complex file structure or additional key words. For example for the past couple of years when I shoot high school girls' vollyball I try to keep a few images of each girl on the team. So when I start culling one of the first things I'll do is set up a collection for each jersey number. Then I'll quickly drag images into the collections and do my culling there. That way if I only have a few shots of some of the players I make sure and keep a couple even if they're not the greatest action, etc. When I'm completely done with that shoot the collections can just go away.

Then there are smart collections which are really powerful. Similar to the filtering that can be done in library grid view but much more powerful, are persistent as you move around within LR, and can kept for future use if desired. For example you can sort by post-crop pixel dimensions/MP size. If I have hundreds of images of a given species of bird I use this to cull out images shot with older, low MP cameras and/or heavy crops.

Some of these tools are meaningless to many people. But once the image library starts to grow they become very useful.

 

[jhallettbc]

In classic after your first step (moving the image file to the same folder as the some of other images in your lightroom catalog) you would go to that folder on the left panel of Lightroom and click sync folder. It will then import it into the Lightroom catalog and you will see it in your lightroom library. When you clock sync folder You get a dialogue asking if you want to use the full import module or just import the image automatically into the catalog. In classic import just means linking the image file to the catalog, wherever the image file is. The catalog in lightroom is just a database of where the image files are located and what edits were done to them in the lightroom develop module. The catalog doesn't actually contain the image files, just links to them.

In LR on the left I can see my folders but I can see anything that you can click on to sync folders. There are 3 little dots with about 5 options that appear but nothing about sync folder.

 

[Anjin San]

Understand that, but if you use it as Lightroom as your file browser, it pretty much works exactly like that. And if you set your catalog to back up and check integrity every time you close, you never have to worry about it.

True…but when starting out it’s not fully understood by some users that it isn’t a file browser and doesn’t actually contain the images…and can lead to issues for them. Me…I don’t think the catalog (or not) is a reason to choose one or the other…both have pros and cons and use what works best. We are all experienced enough to only move files within the Library module…but that’s not true for novices. For me…the lack of capabilities in LR compared to Classic is the reason not to switch yet…but it is getting closer all the time.

 

[bleirer]

In LR on the left I can see my folders but I can see anything that you can click on to sync folders. There are 3 little dots with about 5 options that appear but nothing about sync folder.

Right click on the folder.

 

[jhallettbc]

Right click on the folder.

For some reason right clicking on my trackpad does not work with LR. It does with LRC and all my other programs. Weird.

 

[bleirer]

For some reason right clicking on my trackpad does not work with LR. It does with LRC and all my other programs. Weird.

I am talking about Lightroom classic. Click on the folder and right click, or follow these instructions from Adobe:

Synchronize folders
If the contents of a folder in your catalog don’t match the contents of the same folder on the volume, you can synchronize the two folders. When you synchronize folders, you have the option of adding files that have been added to the folder but not imported into the catalog, removing files that have been deleted, and scanning for metadata updates. The photos in the folder and all subfolders can be synchronized. You can determine which folders, subfolders, and files are imported.

In the Folders panel, select the folder you want to synchronize.
Choose Library > Synchronize Folder.
In the Synchronize Folder dialog box, do any of the following:

To import photos that appear in the folders but have not been imported in the catalog, select Import New Photos. If you select Show Import Dialog Before Importing, you can specify which folders and photos are imported.

To remove photos that have been deleted from the folder but not from the catalog, select Remove Missing Photos From Catalog. If this option is dimmed, no files are missing. (You can choose Show Missing Photos to display the photos in Grid view.)

To scan for any metadata changes made to the files in another application, choose Scan For Metadata Updates.

 

[jhallettbc]

I am talking about Lightroom classic. Click on the folder and right click, or follow these instructions from Adobe:

Synchronize folders
If the contents of a folder in your catalog don’t match the contents of the same folder on the volume, you can synchronize the two folders. When you synchronize folders, you have the option of adding files that have been added to the folder but not imported into the catalog, removing files that have been deleted, and scanning for metadata updates. The photos in the folder and all subfolders can be synchronized. You can determine which folders, subfolders, and files are imported.

In the Folders panel, select the folder you want to synchronize.
Choose Library > Synchronize Folder.
In the Synchronize Folder dialog box, do any of the following:

To import photos that appear in the folders but have not been imported in the catalog, select Import New Photos. If you select Show Import Dialog Before Importing, you can specify which folders and photos are imported.

To remove photos that have been deleted from the folder but not from the catalog, select Remove Missing Photos From Catalog. If this option is dimmed, no files are missing. (You can choose Show Missing Photos to display the photos in Grid view.)

To scan for any metadata changes made to the files in another application, choose Scan For Metadata Updates.

You are a gem to take the time to explain all this. When I have time tomorrow I will follow your instructions. Thanks so much.

 

[Butlerkid]

I'm completely ignorant of how Bridge works. So are you saying that images that are still on a card can be opened in Bridge prior to import? Limited hard drive space when working on a laptop and a huge number of files to go through can indeed be a challenge. Thankfully nowadays it can all be done b tion are in addition to not in lieu of keywords. They're a very easy/convenient way to temporarily associate images without creating a complex file structure or additional key words. For example for the past couple of years when I shoot high school girls' vollyball I try to keep a few images of each girl on the team. So when I start culling one of the first things I'll do is set up a collection for each jersey number. Then I'll quickly drag images into the collections and do my culling there. That way if I only have a few shots of some of the players I make sure and keep a couple even if they're not the greatest action, etc. When I'm completely done with that shoot the collections can just go away.

Then there are smart collections which are really powerful. Similar to the filtering that can be done in library grid view but much more powerful, are persistent as you move around within LR, and can kept for future use if desired. For example you can sort by post-crop pixel dimensions/MP size. If I have hundreds of images of a given species of bird I use this to cull out images shot with older, low MP cameras and/or heavy crops.

Some of these tools are meaningless to many people. But once the image library starts to grow they become very useful.

Bridge doesn't care where the images are.....on card in a card reader, external or internal HD, etc. When you open Bridge, you then chose a location where the images are currently. You can then select them all and copy them to another device, or rate/cull the images and then copy only the selected ones to a device. I usually cull while the images are on my external HD, then copy the keepers to an internal HD on my PC.

In Bridge you could use a different key word for each girl. You could then review each group and then star rate the best image. Then copy the star rated images to your PC. Easy peasy.......... And the keywords and stars are saved in the metadata. You can also sort on almost any criteria that is in the metadata.