Will the Nikon Z9 Deliver?

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DaveR said:
My background is that I made my living out of photography all my life, never done anything else. I'm now retired. I've had a great life but I'm cursed because all my life I have had to have the highest standards in my work. I still have that ingrained in me so for me a zoom would be a compromise. It can only be a prime lens everytime. So the change to mirrorless wouldn't just be a few thousand, it would be a large financial commitment regardless of the brand I eventually choose.

It's a change I am eager to make and you're so right when you say life's too short. I'm the wrong side of 65 and it seems 70 is coming way too fast but I have always been slow and considered in my choice of gear as literally my life depended on it. I can't change that now.
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https://flic.kr/p/2kyoHvw
 
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Hut said:
https://flic.kr/p/2kyoHvw
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Understand where your coming from.
Zooms have come a long way, the 70-200 FL Nikon is on par with nearly all primes now, the only lens that is as good or ever so fractionally better is the 105 1.4 and 200 F2.
The above shot is a great example of speed focusing and skill. the face says it all and would impact even more when cropped.

Your using an A1 Sony, if so stay with it.

Oz Down under
 
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DaveR said:
Lol Hut. You're not going to change my mind. I'm pleased that you are happy with your gear, I really am, but I've chosen a different path.
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While I hear you in my experience there is no reason why you cant get this shot on a Nikon, Sony just makes it a little easier.

Oz down under
 
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Etching House said:
While I hear you in my experience there is no reason why you cant get this shot on a Nikon, Sony just makes it a little easier.

Oz down under
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I have taken shots of dog racing but it was a long time ago. That was with a Nikon film camera and manual focus. You get better picures when they are coming out of a bend grouped together. Just pre focus on a spot and wait for them. You only had one shot though unless you had a motordrive. Those were the days lol
 
DaveR said:
Lol Hut. You're not going to change my mind. I'm pleased that you are happy with your gear, I really am, but I've chosen a different path.
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That’s not my gear. I’m just considering it. When you look at these it’s not much of a compromise, these are fantastic. Looks like it would be a nice combo for what I want to do.
I am still using my D500, D850, with 500 PF
 
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Hut said:
That’s not my gear. I’m just considering it. When you look at these it’s not much of a compromise, these are fantastic. Looks like it would be a nice combo for what I want to do.
I am still using my D500, D850, with 500 PF
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The compromise I'm refering to is not sharpness or IQ. I've seen impressive results from both the new Canon and Sony zooms. It's the restricted max aperature and performance with TC's. Having said that a prime will always have the edge over a zoom in sharpness, not by much in these new zooms but it's there.
 
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DaveR said:
The compromise I'm refering to is not sharpness or IQ. I've seen impressive results from both the new Canon and Sony zooms. It's the restricted max aperature and performance with TC's. Having said that a prime will always have the edge over a zoom in sharpness, not by much in these new zooms but it's there.
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What has surprised me in my evaluation of the R5 is that the combination of R5 + 100/500 zoom actually yielded overall sharper shots than D850 + 500pf. Whether that's due to IBIS, to more accurate on-eye focus or (as unlikely as it is) the zoom being sharper than the 500pf, I can't tell - the surprising finding is that overall technical quality of the shots was slightly better (and overall more consistent) with the R5 + zoom.
It doesn't negate that the zoom is f:7.1 vs f:5.6 for the 500pf prime - which has an impact on OOF areas but also ISO so it's not all good.
 
DaveR said:
The compromise I'm refering to is not sharpness or IQ. I've seen impressive results from both the new Canon and Sony zooms. It's the restricted max aperature and performance with TC's. Having said that a prime will always have the edge over a zoom in sharpness, not by much in these new zooms but it's there.
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I actually did read your first post.
Sony has the option for a 600 prime. For a big dummy like me hiking the desert with a camera in hand, shooting random birds, I don’t really want that.
Been seeing a lot of razor sharp images from Canon and Sony jumping out of my screen lately
 
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DaveR said:
I have taken shots of dog racing but it was a long time ago. That was with a Nikon film camera and manual focus. You get better picures when they are coming out of a bend grouped together. Just pre focus on a spot and wait for them. You only had one shot though unless you had a motordrive. Those were the days lol
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Love it.....your spot on, that's what I call Leica Shooting and I do this for street photography in all manual and mono with a Zeiss lens and the Df.

The skills of the past are slowly being lost more and more ........sadly, but they call that progress.

Oz down Under
 
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Beginning with their pioneering versions, Nikon has perfected the concept of the telephoto zoom. The latest versions of the 70-200 f2.8 Nikkors (for F and Z mount) represent 4+ decades of R&D. Since the AI and AIS models, although with caveats, all models have been judged good to excellent optics. The E FL and S models are superb. Nothing to add, except they both perform well with TC14 and TC2.

In 2018 and then 2020, Nikon launched the 180-400 f4E TC14 and 120-300 f2.8E SR, which is reported to pair with TCs very well. Too short in reach for the smaller birds, but ideal for mammal subjects. Brad Hill has waxed lyrical about what the terms their Aperture-Independent-Sharpness: combining prime-level image quality with versatile flexibility: framing animalscapes out to portraits and back. (However opinions differ on the IQ of the TC with the 180-400.)

All three fold several primes into a single zoom telephoto, which leavens total price and weight of a set of tele primes. Arguably, the remaining shortfalls are a faster prime (400 f2.8), and with more reach. So 500 f4, 600 f4 or 800 f5.6, or similar using a TC on a fast telephoto prime. All considered, major strengths of the Greater Nikon Ecosystem, especially considering Nikon will get out the high Zed cameras. SO by 2023 we should have the choices across these to the D6 and D5 Triumvariate.

As I posted recently, I'm living in hope Nikon will follow up and merge & extend their prowess in telephoto zooms and phase-fresnel primes into a lighter versatile telephoto zoom! There is indeed a recent patent for three PF zooms : WO2021124804
~200-500 f/5.6 VR PF
~300-600 f/6.3 VR PF
~400-800 f/8 VR PF

Slow but workable on Z Mount. PF technology should lighten and shorten a 400-800 f8 [100mm window] to work very well in so many contexts, if it replicates their optic excellence.
 
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Etching House said:
Love it.....your spot on, that's what I call Leica Shooting and I do this for street photography in all manual and mono with a Zeiss lens and the Df.

The skills of the past are slowly being lost more and more ........sadly, but they call that progress.

Oz down Under
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Indeed!, I do that with the Fuji XPro-1 and some old Leica M lenses (and on occasion on my Leica iiig)
 
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Hut said:
I actually did read your first post.
Sony has the option for a 600 prime. For a big dummy like me hiking the desert with a camera in hand, shooting random birds, I don’t really want that.
Been seeing a lot of razor sharp images from Canon and Sony jumping out of my screen lately
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I understand what you saying about new cameras etc and how they look great and different but...........
I believe Sharpness really comes from YOU..........not the camera.

Only an Opinion
OZ down under
 
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fcotterill said:
Beginning with their pioneering versions, Nikon has perfected the concept of the telephoto zoom. The latest versions of the 70-200 f2.8 Nikkors (for F and Z mount) represent 4+ decades of R&D. Since the AI and AIS models, although with caveats, all models have been judged good to excellent optics. The E FL and S models are superb. Nothing to add, except they both perform well with TC14 and TC2.

In 2018 and then 2020, Nikon launched the 180-400 f4E TC14 and 120-300 f2.8E SR, which is reported to pair with TCs very well. Too short in reach for the smaller birds, but ideal for mammal subjects. Brad Hill has waxed lyrical about what the terms their Aperture-Independent-Sharpness: combining prime-level image quality with versatile flexibility: framing animalscapes out to portraits and back. (However opinions differ on the IQ of the TC with the 180-400.)

All three fold several primes into a single zoom telephoto, which leavens total price and weight of a set of tele primes. Arguably, the remaining shortfalls are a faster prime (400 f2.8), and with more reach. So 500 f4, 600 f4 or 800 f5.6, or similar using a TC on a fast telephoto prime. All considered, major strengths of the Greater Nikon Ecosystem, especially considering Nikon will get out the high Zed cameras. SO by 2023 we should have the choices across these to the D6 and D5 Triumvariate.

As I posted recently, I'm living in hope Nikon will follow up and merge & extend their prowess in telephoto zooms and phase-fresnel primes into a lighter versatile telephoto zoom! There is indeed a recent patent for three PF zooms : WO2021124804
~200-500 f/5.6 VR PF
~300-600 f/6.3 VR PF
~400-800 f/8 VR PF

Slow but workable on Z Mount. PF technology should lighten and shorten a 400-800 f8 [100mm window] to work very well in so many contexts, if it replicates their optic excellence.
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Yes for me 2022/23 is the time for considering change if one can wait that long LOL, sooner I feel I will be collateral damage only.

Oz down Under
 
Etching House said:
Love it.....your spot on, that's what I call Leica Shooting and I do this for street photography in all manual and mono with a Zeiss lens and the Df.

The skills of the past are slowly being lost more and more ........sadly, but they call that progress.

Oz down Under
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It’s always been a constant progression. It ju
Etching House said:
Love it.....your spot on, that's what I call Leica Shooting and I do this for street photography in all manual and mono with a Zeiss lens and the Df.

The skills of the past are slowly being lost more and more ........sadly, but they call that progress.

Oz down Under
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If I get feeling nostalgic I can break out a box of fuzzy black and whites I produced on K1000 35 years ago....lol
 
Etching House said:
And they can also be some of the best ever images.............

Oz Down under
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Sure “the Monolith” is a great photo that stands the test of time. Also boring to me, I would like to capture sharp photos of birds in flights.
 
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There was a comment somewhere above about how the old skills are being lost. I would guess these include focus, estimating exposures and/or the sophisticated uses of a light meter, etc. But at the same time, digital photography and high-tech cameras have introduced opportunities for new skills that were not relevant previously. One such is simply navigating the many menus of a high-level digital camera and understanding how to best use the many settings and features. Consider how many posts and YouTube videos there are with titles like, "optimal camera settings for birds in flight," etc. Also, skills in post-processing are now a big deal. Apparently one has to be a Photoshop/Lightroom maven to truly be a top-notch photographer nowadays. I enjoy post-processing to a point, but all of the stuff with layers and masks and brushes and presets makes my head swim. I just do not enjoy this all that much, I confess, and this undoubtedly limits me as a "photographer."
 
GrandNagus50 said:
There was a comment somewhere above about how the old skills are being lost. I would guess these include focus, estimating exposures and/or the sophisticated uses of a light meter, etc. But at the same time, digital photography and high-tech cameras have introduced opportunities for new skills that were not relevant previously. One such is simply navigating the many menus of a high-level digital camera and understanding how to best use the many settings and features. Consider how many posts and YouTube videos there are with titles like, "optimal camera settings for birds in flight," etc. Also, skills in post-processing are now a big deal. Apparently one has to be a Photoshop/Lightroom maven to truly be a top-notch photographer nowadays. I enjoy post-processing to a point, but all of the stuff with layers and masks and brushes and presets makes my head swim. I just do not enjoy this all that much, I confess, and this undoubtedly limits me as a "photographer."
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Also how is a D6 acceptable but once autofocus works good, oh no that is a bridge too far 🤔
 
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GrandNagus50 said:
There was a comment somewhere above about how the old skills are being lost. I would guess these include focus, estimating exposures and/or the sophisticated uses of a light meter, etc. But at the same time, digital photography and high-tech cameras have introduced opportunities for new skills that were not relevant previously. One such is simply navigating the many menus of a high-level digital camera and understanding how to best use the many settings and features. Consider how many posts and YouTube videos there are with titles like, "optimal camera settings for birds in flight," etc. Also, skills in post-processing are now a big deal. Apparently one has to be a Photoshop/Lightroom maven to truly be a top-notch photographer nowadays. I enjoy post-processing to a point, but all of the stuff with layers and masks and brushes and presets makes my head swim. I just do not enjoy this all that much, I confess, and this undoubtedly limits me as a "photographer."
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Taking great pictures today still requires a lot of skills and practice - not the same skills, and you don't practice to improve the same abilities, but there is no free ride, today no more than 35 years ago when I started.

What I think is unfortunate is that folks entering the hobby now don't really have a chance to practice "slow and deliberate" - when you actually have to think about the picture you want to get and how to best get it. The electronics give the false impression that you can just rush and the nannies in the camera will deliver pictures like Steve's... even with an A1 or an R3, that's just not the case.

In the full manual times, we had no choice but to learn to shoot slow and deliberate (or waste a lot of money on development...) and today you actually have to want to slow down, and when you are starting, how do you slow down when all you hear is that 10fps is obsolete, 20fps is base and 30fps is the new frontier... For 30 fps to be of any value, to nit-pick a wing position or a fraction of an action, first the shots have to be composed right, lit right, the background can't look like crap etc... and then you have to be able to give the shot its full potential through post processing - when I used to pick Velvia 50F over Provia 100F over Kodachrome 64, I chose what my processing was and I was stuck with it, good or bad, for 36 shots but it's not mandatory anymore (but possible, pick a jpg recipe and you can easily get back to it).

All this to say, the skills of old manual shooting serve me very well to this day - I just use them very differently and for very different purposes.
 
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Well, I figured that my original post would generate a lot of dialogue and differences of opinion, but never imagined that they would be so ardent and diverse! Obviously, lots of strong opinions here - it's been a real education!

A few follow up questions: just what if the Z9 blows the mirrorless competition out of the water, and Nikon makes it far easier to migrate to mirrorless with FX lenses? What if the Z9 were a true game changer? Would you continue to stay loyal to Nikon, or (heresy!) consider switching from Sony or Canon to Nikon? Sometimes, dreams really do come true!
 
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Abinoone said:
Well, I figured that my original post would generate a lot of dialogue and differences of opinion, but never imagined that they would be so ardent and diverse! Obviously, lots of strong opinions here - it's been a real education!

A few follow up questions: just what if the Z9 blows the mirrorless competition out of the water, and Nikon makes it far easier to migrate to mirrorless with FX lenses? What if the Z9 were a true game changer? Would you continue to stay loyal to Nikon, or (heresy!) consider switching from Sony or Canon to Nikon? Sometimes, dreams really do come true!
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That's an easy one. If the Z9 blows away the competition, I will definitely get in line for one and will stay loyal to Nikon. For me, sticking with Nikon remains my default position, and my impatience to get "the latest and the greatest" by switching is for the most part mental yadda-yadda. In the short run, I am much wiser to spend my money on travel (for the opportunity to take more photos!), not on new photo gear I really do not need, but only "want." I am not impoverished, but neither am I "made of money."
 
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