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Will the Nikon Z9 Deliver?
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O
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O
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fcotterill
Well-known member
There's quite a lot more that's missing in core products, which Nikon have to prioritize to fill.... before their Z System grows upward and outwards. The Z9 is only the high end, top-end. A Z8 and Z90 are probably far more critical to attract Enthusiasts seeking high end Features in more affordable Z cameras.
A Z90 is critical in establishing the foundations of an affordable DX system to cultivate younger cohorts of Z users.
And note persisting glaring gap of more functional FTZ. You probably don't have any need for AFD lenses but many DSLR owners certainly are waiting....
A Z90 is critical in establishing the foundations of an affordable DX system to cultivate younger cohorts of Z users.
And note persisting glaring gap of more functional FTZ. You probably don't have any need for AFD lenses but many DSLR owners certainly are waiting....
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thelordofthelight
Well-known member
The biggest problem with Nikon right now is the timing and delay, there is way too many 'talking' and 'internal presentations' and less announcements and product availability. This is for sure hurting Nikon pretty much on a daily basis now as we see a lot of Nikon shooters already migrating to other systems. Their internal presentations and interviews with executives seem to tell one story, which is their focus on "pro and enthusiasts" whereas there is hardly any info on the kind of products that the Pros and Enthusiasts are really looking forward to (Z9/Z8, 100-400S, 200-600S, Z90) and we are hearing more and more about a Z30, Retro Z, Pan cake lenses etc...thats a big problem for Nikon. Its high time Nikon either comes up with some kind of an official roadmap for the Z cameras or at least do some controlled announcements/ leaks just like how Canon is doing lately.
Sony was capturing Nikon's share with their A9/A9II/A7R4 and the A1 has only made it worse.. Nikon is only lucky so far because of the obviously missing set of enthusiast tele lenses with the Sony system (like a 500F4 or PF type lenses). I know of a lot of people who will instantly consider switching to Sony if they had more tele lens choices other than just the 200-600 or their 400/600 GMs.
On the other hand, where i live, i know of a lot of folks who are already so impressed with the Canon R5 and they consider it as a true replacement for a Nikon D850 and those canon bodies seem to work flawlessly with older EF glasses offering versatile lens choices at very reasonable prices. So Canon R5/R6 is now starting to attract more Nikon users here. I had an opportunity to try the R5 with the 500 IS II and that bird eye AF was mind blowing and i feel for the price to performance it is such an amazing camera.
Again on the timing, even if the Z9 is announced in the next Qtr and is delivered by end of 2021, it is not going to be the first choice for most of the Nikon users. The enthusiasts are really looking for a mirrorless D850/D500 and no one knows when there will be even a development announcement for these products let alone availability. It is indeed a real test of patience for the Nikon users for a while.
Sony was capturing Nikon's share with their A9/A9II/A7R4 and the A1 has only made it worse.. Nikon is only lucky so far because of the obviously missing set of enthusiast tele lenses with the Sony system (like a 500F4 or PF type lenses). I know of a lot of people who will instantly consider switching to Sony if they had more tele lens choices other than just the 200-600 or their 400/600 GMs.
On the other hand, where i live, i know of a lot of folks who are already so impressed with the Canon R5 and they consider it as a true replacement for a Nikon D850 and those canon bodies seem to work flawlessly with older EF glasses offering versatile lens choices at very reasonable prices. So Canon R5/R6 is now starting to attract more Nikon users here. I had an opportunity to try the R5 with the 500 IS II and that bird eye AF was mind blowing and i feel for the price to performance it is such an amazing camera.
Again on the timing, even if the Z9 is announced in the next Qtr and is delivered by end of 2021, it is not going to be the first choice for most of the Nikon users. The enthusiasts are really looking for a mirrorless D850/D500 and no one knows when there will be even a development announcement for these products let alone availability. It is indeed a real test of patience for the Nikon users for a while.
Totally agree with you Steve.Eye AF is indeed a game changer.Though i don't have A1 i wish for it every day
I was shooting a Rose ringed parakeet (D 500 + 500 PF) eating a mango which was hidden behind some leaves.The parrot would go in behind the leaves to take a bite & then come out to eat it & repeat the process.I wanted to get the eyes when it peeps out behind the leaves to get the mango & i never got it since the focusing was pretty difficult (the third shot below) .
Eye AF would have certainly given some good shots.Even when its face was visible (when it came out to eat the mango) it was touch & go since it was shifting constantly.I did get number of such shots (first two shots) with the keeper rate being around 60 percent.With eye AF i would have got atleast 90 %
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O
Well-known member
Rants over the last 2 years to date Z series...LOL.
The hypothesis.........
On the Positive I think Nikon will come good to a degree and I have said this all along, when is the question and at what cost in heavily devalued existing gear and overpriced expense of new gear.
In my mind the world at all levels runs on 2 factors PRESSURE and the HIP POCKET be it business economics or politics, that's all that drives things the rest is spin marketing and politics.
In this global shrinking market you have two choices, volume or margin, volume is insanity, margin is sanity, Nikon is choosing niche and margins so they really need to do something right, and yes they are going to screw you on price.
It’s not just the powerful large famous or rich that best survive it’s the adaptable, this adaptability in Nikon has been lacking at a critical time as has the speed in change needed in this emerging new world.
To me Nikons behavior mimics, only mimics a company under trading in or its way out of administration or under heavy bureaucratic controlee, or offering itself for sale. This pattern speculation breeds conspiracy theories, but hey the actions mirrored so closely, and it may not be over yet, you may see a fit for a new player offering vertical integration to loop the market share, Panasonic could do with the branding and specialist in stills.
I would like to have Woody Allen direct this movie....LOL The Life of Nikon.
The fish rots from the head not the tail, is the issue in Nikon unique, the reasons are irrelevant as the damage has been done and is not healing as fast as it should be..
We can all point out this and that and discuss it till we are blue in the face, why how when....it doesn't matter really, what matters is for Nikon to move in the right direction faster and smarter and loose the shackles of control resembling administrator bureaucratic like CYA behaviour, I am not saying they are working under these rules, just the smell is similar.
We the customer, well we are left wondering waiting, hoping, optimistic...........disappointed looking for change ??
The world of volume middle class and mainstream new generation consumers are focused on mostly Video that they have learnt to use and grown up with for 20 years now......as being the norm, G5 G6 communicate sending video like we send text in an sms.
I said a player maybe like Panasonic Samsung or such will harness this new generation and enter this arena, Panasonic is taking stills from its video at 30mp images, yes they will get better and better over time, Nikon is focusing on stills as they lack vertical integration with a strong competitive video capability, could Panasonic or such be a fit if the turf is carved up and shared sensibly, who knows??
The G3....... Sony is strong in all areas, Canon is on the heels of this hybrid future, dose Nikon need a bride to have a complete family in order to remain in the G3.
Man you can drive yourself nuts if you let it get to you, it’s better than a dynasty movie, but hey Nikons actions or the lack of speak loudly, I mean I could be all wrong or partly right, who cares, I am sitting back as I have said till 2022, till the situation settles then I will decide if I want to stay in the family. I have no pressing needs, for a 600mm or Z9 Z10 Z11 or A1 A2 A3 or M3 M4 M5.......... I would rather hire or borrow when needed till everyone in the G3 settles, it’s cheaper and a tax deduction.
A phone call and the courier deliver's or picks up the latest gear........meanwhile I will cruise with the D850 for the foreseeable future.
Focus on using what I have and enjoying photography..........eye tracking is not a priority for a lot of what I do.
Only a wild opinion
Oz Down Under
The hypothesis.........
On the Positive I think Nikon will come good to a degree and I have said this all along, when is the question and at what cost in heavily devalued existing gear and overpriced expense of new gear.
In my mind the world at all levels runs on 2 factors PRESSURE and the HIP POCKET be it business economics or politics, that's all that drives things the rest is spin marketing and politics.
In this global shrinking market you have two choices, volume or margin, volume is insanity, margin is sanity, Nikon is choosing niche and margins so they really need to do something right, and yes they are going to screw you on price.
It’s not just the powerful large famous or rich that best survive it’s the adaptable, this adaptability in Nikon has been lacking at a critical time as has the speed in change needed in this emerging new world.
To me Nikons behavior mimics, only mimics a company under trading in or its way out of administration or under heavy bureaucratic controlee, or offering itself for sale. This pattern speculation breeds conspiracy theories, but hey the actions mirrored so closely, and it may not be over yet, you may see a fit for a new player offering vertical integration to loop the market share, Panasonic could do with the branding and specialist in stills.
I would like to have Woody Allen direct this movie....LOL The Life of Nikon.
The fish rots from the head not the tail, is the issue in Nikon unique, the reasons are irrelevant as the damage has been done and is not healing as fast as it should be..
We can all point out this and that and discuss it till we are blue in the face, why how when....it doesn't matter really, what matters is for Nikon to move in the right direction faster and smarter and loose the shackles of control resembling administrator bureaucratic like CYA behaviour, I am not saying they are working under these rules, just the smell is similar.
We the customer, well we are left wondering waiting, hoping, optimistic...........disappointed looking for change ??
The world of volume middle class and mainstream new generation consumers are focused on mostly Video that they have learnt to use and grown up with for 20 years now......as being the norm, G5 G6 communicate sending video like we send text in an sms.
I said a player maybe like Panasonic Samsung or such will harness this new generation and enter this arena, Panasonic is taking stills from its video at 30mp images, yes they will get better and better over time, Nikon is focusing on stills as they lack vertical integration with a strong competitive video capability, could Panasonic or such be a fit if the turf is carved up and shared sensibly, who knows??
The G3....... Sony is strong in all areas, Canon is on the heels of this hybrid future, dose Nikon need a bride to have a complete family in order to remain in the G3.
Man you can drive yourself nuts if you let it get to you, it’s better than a dynasty movie, but hey Nikons actions or the lack of speak loudly, I mean I could be all wrong or partly right, who cares, I am sitting back as I have said till 2022, till the situation settles then I will decide if I want to stay in the family. I have no pressing needs, for a 600mm or Z9 Z10 Z11 or A1 A2 A3 or M3 M4 M5.......... I would rather hire or borrow when needed till everyone in the G3 settles, it’s cheaper and a tax deduction.
A phone call and the courier deliver's or picks up the latest gear........meanwhile I will cruise with the D850 for the foreseeable future.
Focus on using what I have and enjoying photography..........eye tracking is not a priority for a lot of what I do.
Only a wild opinion
Oz Down Under
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FB101
Well-known member
You nailed how I feel.
A Z9, as good as it may be, will be a niche product and there is no sign of a D850/D500 replacement. There is no sign of a functional FTZ adapter. The lens map is unclear. Right now the true D850 replacement is the canon R5 - no doubt. And all that’s in sight is anything but what we need for wildlife.
So option 1 is to hold on to dSLR for 3 years and hope nikon has addressed all those gaps by then while remaining viable, or jump ship.
i can’t find a canon 100-500 anywhere to buy or that decision would be made already.
O
Well-known member
You gota do what you gota do, if these companies didn't mention mirrorless in the first place we wouldn't be the wiser LOL I feel let it all go enjoy what you have and look at 2022 or earliest 2021 LATE
Oz down under
O
Well-known member
Doug Herr
Well-known member
Doug Herr
Well-known member
Photographers need to be adaptable as well, to look beyond their favored brand (been there, got burned). An investment in lenses can be difficult to take a loss on but the photos matter more than the brand of the camera.
If the equipment you have is serving you well there's no need to look further but if more useful tools are available with another system and the future is unclear with the one you're using, at some point it would be wise to consider a change. We as photographers should consider the quality of our work over the welfare of the tool maker.
D
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It seems weird to have to explain why a better camera is a good thing. 
abc123brian
Well-known member
I think there are often two things overlooked in these discussion that it is important for us to remember.
First being that a good portion of forum members questioning switching brands or what makes something so much better is looking for genuine information as to why you value the change enough to spend the money to change. Using the Sony A1 as an example, it seems many are using this camera with the consumer level 200-600mm which in Nikon DSLR terms would be the same as buying a D6 to use with a 200-500mm so you can see why this would be reason for other forum members to question the move; especially the ones currently using DSLR considering moving to mirrorless.
Secondly, we have to remember when discussing how far behind one company is, we need to consider the genre and subjects the other user shoots. I know the majority of the forum members here are wildlife photographers and a smaller number of landscape photographers. So for someone who primarily shoots BIF telling a landscape photographer that Sony is so far ahead of Nikon that Nikon will never catch up doesn’t make sense.
It seems overall that wildlife photographers make up a fairly small portion of the photography community as the majority of the camera manufacturers focus on 14-200mm range for the first few years. I can understand why a company wouldn’t jump right in to cover a smaller user base. With that said, Nikon does need to get their wildlife/sports Z gear out within the next year.
First being that a good portion of forum members questioning switching brands or what makes something so much better is looking for genuine information as to why you value the change enough to spend the money to change. Using the Sony A1 as an example, it seems many are using this camera with the consumer level 200-600mm which in Nikon DSLR terms would be the same as buying a D6 to use with a 200-500mm so you can see why this would be reason for other forum members to question the move; especially the ones currently using DSLR considering moving to mirrorless.
Secondly, we have to remember when discussing how far behind one company is, we need to consider the genre and subjects the other user shoots. I know the majority of the forum members here are wildlife photographers and a smaller number of landscape photographers. So for someone who primarily shoots BIF telling a landscape photographer that Sony is so far ahead of Nikon that Nikon will never catch up doesn’t make sense.
It seems overall that wildlife photographers make up a fairly small portion of the photography community as the majority of the camera manufacturers focus on 14-200mm range for the first few years. I can understand why a company wouldn’t jump right in to cover a smaller user base. With that said, Nikon does need to get their wildlife/sports Z gear out within the next year.
Camera manufacturers do consider these small num,ber of wild life & sports photographers as their stars & hence call their camears designed for these small group of people as flagship cameras & the whole world (including the other genre of photographers) takes notice of these cameras & the company that makes them.The small group is indeed a niche trend setting group .Nat geo wild & sports TV channels certainly does notice & so are their viewers & this does affect the over all sales too
D
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Look at examples of Sony Alpha1 with 200-600 action shots with eye af ‘nuff said
abc123brian
Well-known member
I wouldn’t disagree that these cameras are the ones that generate the most hype, but it generally takes each manufacturer a while to release these cameras/lenses for new systems. How long did it take Sony to go from A7 to A9 to the A1? Fuji still hasn’t built a camera to this level. Canon seems to be the outlier here, but they always were the cameras you saw at sporting events. I would argue it is better to get the cash cow lenses/cameras out before focusing on the trend setting niche groups.
LOL, yes, the images are impressive and what the A1 is able to do is also impressive. I actually find the images from the 200-500mm to be quite good and am sure it would do just fine on a D5/D6; just not a combination I seen people use.
Personally, I find what Canon accomplished with the R5 more impressive and am excited to see what they do with stacked sensor tech given what they accomplished with a traditional sensor. From the videos I’ve watched, it also seems like their Eye AF is already a little better than Sony’s, but would like to hear what @Steve has thought of it from his time with the R5 rental.
Hate to say it, but the IQ of the Sony 200-600, and also the Canon 100-500, are significantly better than the Nikon 200-500. The Sony has internal focus and zooming, and is lighter, to boot.
I am not seriously considering switching from Nikon to Sony at the moment, as the prospect of selling off all of the (excessive amount, really) Nikon gear I have acquired over the decades makes my head spin and my stomach churn. But I totally understand why people consider this or even do it. At worst, one making this move takes a proverbial bath financially one time, and then it's onward and upward. In my own case, lots of the gear I would sell off for disgustingly low prices is stuff I rarely use anymore anyway. It would be a matter of paring down/uncluttering and ending up with a lean, mean new set of gear, all of which I actually would be using.
There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the Sony A1 and even the Canon R5 present tangible improvements that I would enjoy and would make (some of) my photos better, including capturing some images that I currently am missing. But I also am pretty sure that the Z9 will be an excellent camera capable of all that these current high performers can provide. It's the delay, delay, delay that eats at me. I say it way too much but, yes, first world problem.
Meanwhile, the "mass market" for cameras is diminishing daily, as more people use their phones for their day-to-day snapshots. The actual "camera market" in several more years might mainly comprise high-end specialty clientele, including wildlife and sports photographers, the odd wedding photographers (really, how many people can actually make a living at this in today's society?) and well-off parents who want "the best" gear to photograph their kids' soccer leagues.
Breaking news!!!!
Z9 to have built in Laser Chain Saw!!!
CEO of Nikon responded to inquiries with a succinct " We saw an opportunity."
You heard it here first on the BCG Forums.
That's all, folks.
eaj101
Well-known member
I think people are leaving out the 'good enough' factor. I spent years in cutting edge computer technology, always looking for those factors that would convince a customer to change or upgrade, and continually tripped over one fact:
If the current platform is basically getting the job done, there's a lot of reason to just sit tight.
For most nature photographers I'd argue that Nikon (and the other vendors) haven't given a lot of users a compelling reason to change platforms. Yes, faster frame rates and eye AF and bird AI are nice to have, but for a lot of users the D850/D500 and existing lenses get the job done well enough. I have professional friends still carting Wista 4x5s and Pentax67s. Others, who shoot for commercial interior designers, aren't content without the latest Phase One.
But if it gets the job done adequately, they won't change. Perhaps they would make a different decision from a clean slate, but almost no one at this level is making the decision from a clean slate.
Frankly, I'd like to see manufacturers thinking a little more out of the box, though I don't know what that would be. Seamless integration with social media? Maybe Apple should buy Nikon
If the current platform is basically getting the job done, there's a lot of reason to just sit tight.
For most nature photographers I'd argue that Nikon (and the other vendors) haven't given a lot of users a compelling reason to change platforms. Yes, faster frame rates and eye AF and bird AI are nice to have, but for a lot of users the D850/D500 and existing lenses get the job done well enough. I have professional friends still carting Wista 4x5s and Pentax67s. Others, who shoot for commercial interior designers, aren't content without the latest Phase One.
But if it gets the job done adequately, they won't change. Perhaps they would make a different decision from a clean slate, but almost no one at this level is making the decision from a clean slate.
Frankly, I'd like to see manufacturers thinking a little more out of the box, though I don't know what that would be. Seamless integration with social media? Maybe Apple should buy Nikon
Well that would definitely drive me to SonySeamless integration with social media? Maybe Apple should buy Nikon
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FB101
Well-known member
That's a natural evolution. The Canon 1 series and the Nikon single digit bodies have long been seen as reliable hammers and used often for self-defense. Building-in a chain-saw was just the logical next step Nikon had to take - far more feasible and valuable than tracking a tiny bird eye in the distance. They did consider adding air-bags to better protect such expensive gear but decided against it as it conflicted with the self-defense applications of the Z9.
D
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LOL? you made it sound like it would be foolish to pair an A1 with a 200-600 but the results speak for themselves. It looks to me like it would be a good combo for a guy like me. Hiking, no tripod, love of birds, other wildlife and nature photography.
I am not ever considering a D6 or another slow to focus Nikon 200-500. Although the 200-500 would probably perform much better on a D6 than my D850 or D500 I assume
D
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Good enough? Psh! No such thing....I think people are leaving out the 'good enough' factor. I spent years in cutting edge computer technology, always looking for those factors that would convince a customer to change or upgrade, and continually tripped over one fact:
If the current platform is basically getting the job done, there's a lot of reason to just sit tight.
For most nature photographers I'd argue that Nikon (and the other vendors) haven't given a lot of users a compelling reason to change platforms. Yes, faster frame rates and eye AF and bird AI are nice to have, but for a lot of users the D850/D500 and existing lenses get the job done well enough. I have professional friends still carting Wista 4x5s and Pentax67s. Others, who shoot for commercial interior designers, aren't content without the latest Phase One.
But if it gets the job done adequately, they won't change. Perhaps they would make a different decision from a clean slate, but almost no one at this level is making the decision from a clean slate.
Frankly, I'd like to see manufacturers thinking a little more out of the box, though I don't know what that would be. Seamless integration with social media? Maybe Apple should buy Nikon