Appreciate your experience using all three - thanks!
Will the Nikon Z9 Deliver?
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Just a heads up, I received eight reports from this thread this morning over two posts and almost shut the thread down, but it seems to have gotten back on track. Please keep it civil and respect others opinions or I'll have to lock the thread. Remember - it's just a camera 
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Thanks That R1 is only expected to be around 20MP, similar to their flagship dslr. Just enough for a full spread in national geographic.Just got back after a good trip out with my D850. I hope you did the same.
Thanks for your interesting links and insights into stacked sensors. It is the fact that Nikon moved away from using Sony sensors to develop their own that gives me hope, rather than confidence, that Nikon can come up with something special with the Z9.
There are a couple of areas that you didn't mention that also fuel my optimism. The new processor that Nikon have developed for the Z9. It will have at least one of these installed and this is a key component in maximising the performance it can get out of the new sensor.
Another is advances in AF technology such as Quad Pixel AF. At the moment if you're holding your camera horizontally and the edge you're focusing on is also horizontal, then you may find that the AF can struggle. I have read about this problem with some bird photographers saying that they have trouble getting focus on a perch and having to twist the camera sideways to achieve it. Having four 'sub-pixels' would theoretically mean that a camera would be able to lock onto high contrast areas – no matter what orientation the camera or the subject is. At present I have only read about Canon working on this for their upcoming flagship R1 but other manufacturers must surely looking at this too. I would at least hope Nikon is.
Canon EOS R1 to include Quad Pixel AF and a global shutter?
The Canon EOS R1 is one of the most hotly anticipated cameras this year – and specs rumors are already rolling inwww.digitalcameraworld.com
I share your view that things are moving fast with these new cameras and the technology and it is better to wait a while to see how it matures.
DaveR
Active member
Yes I had seen that. It was the Quad Pixel AF that caught my eye. I had not heard of it before and it seemed to me to have potential for an interesting advance in AF performance over Dual Pixel AF which we have now.
That is interesting. If one runs Canon dpp4 software, the dual pixel is used to fine tune the focus in post, I think comparing the perspective/angle of the two sides. Maybe quad will enhance that? No clue. Quote from dpp4 manual...... you can make use of the Dual Pixel data recorded with the Dual Pixel RAW image for microadjustment of the position of maximum sharpness and resolution using the depth
information contained within the file, repositioning the viewpoint or foreground bokeh for a more pleasing result, and reducing the appearance of ghosting in images.
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eaj101
Well-known member
I'd like to see Nikon take two ideas from Olympus 1) 'Handheld HiRes' uses the IBIS hardware to shift the sensor fractional pixel distances and generate, in Olympus' case, either 50MP or 80MP equivalent images from a 20MP sensor. Imagine what you could do with a 45MP sensor. 2) 'Pro Capture' - saves up to 35 images BEFORE the shutter button is pressed (from half press to full press) compensating for human reaction time lags. So if you're watching a bird, shutter button half pressed, waiting for the bird to do something interesting... when it does, and you press the shutter, it saves 35 images before the shutter press as well (at 60fps).
Neither earthshaking nor deal-killing, but really useful.
Neither earthshaking nor deal-killing, but really useful.
O
Well-known member
What do feel............
Nikon is where it is by choice and designee not circumstance or lack of technology - skills.
Who knows what the Z9 will bring and yes it would be great if it was a killer unit.
All I know is the value of FX gear is at an all time low, selling a Z6 Z7 is already a tough gig let alone FX gear.
Its obvious that Nikon is for a reason always falling just behind the Sony and Canon world, one wonders...........are the G3 meetings to position who gets what and how as the industry collectively is a Japanese monopoly and is at war but not with it self.....the war is for survival, growth and profit all in a challenging World of rapidly changing technology.
Interesting times..
Only an opinion OZ down Under
I have both the 500PF and the Sigma Sport 500 f4. The Sigma has an additional f stop available. The image quality is not discernibly better, at least based on my samples. The Sigma performs well with the matching 1.4x teleconverter. I have had less luck with the 2X teleconverter, I am not sure why. It might be just a matter of user error (mine). But I actually seem to get better images using the 500mm PF with the TC20eiii than with the Sigma 500 plus the matching Sigma teleconverter. Really, the issue here is whether you "need" that extra stop and/or value that option to get the kind of bokeh/separation you get with an f4 optic.
Finally, and I will go away after this to take some photographs (with a D850)....
It is well worth reading through the cited articles and keys posts in this thread, including essays by Thom Hogan and interviews with Nikon's executives. Nikon will look utterly gormless if the Z9 performance falls short of their predictions. If they are wrong.... well, enough said. It will be very surprising indeed if this camera does NOT deliver on the claims.
For anyone intrigued by the remarkable intricacies of evolving sensor technology, I learnt a lot from the key posts by electronics expert Bob Newman (in a cited dpr thread) about image sensors.
Z9 it is....
Makes sound sense. All these features for the Z9 are entirely achievable https://www.zsystemuser.com/nikon-z-system-news-and/what-the-z9-needs-to-satisf.htmlbcgforums.com
The Z9 is really irrelevant to almost all of us. It will be in very short supply for a long time…just like the A1 is. Then there’s the cost…it simply isn’t feasible or realistic that most or even many people not making money from their shots…and it isn’t just the body…you need expensive lenses to really take advantage of either it or the A1…so the real cost is on the order of $25K.
What isn’t irrelevant is whether some of those nifty AF features and burst rates will make it down via either firmware updates or upgraded models into bodies that us mortals can and/or willing to afford. This is a hobby…and even people like me who could easily afford to drop that much on a system will probably balk at the expense for a hobbyist.
Im sure the A1 is very nice…and likely the Z9 will be too…but it just don’t matter for the vast moorish of us.
mdavis501
New member
I completely agree with dtibbals. By the time Z9 is available, the a2 will be announced or be available. I will keep my d6 and 500pf and move to the sony system immediately. I now have the A1 and will hopefully have the sony 600mm in a few months. But, for now, I like the 500pf too much and will be happy to shoot two systems in order to be able to hand-hold 500mm for long periods of time (and still get sharp images).
D
Deleted member 115
Guest
The fact that you can buy an Alpha 1 today makes it extremely tempting rather than waiting and waiting for Nikon to maybe have something comparable available.
O
Well-known member
Thankyou Thankyou your view on this is spot on, the A1 is a brilliant camera, the Z9 who knows and frankly who cares, both cameras are at the the pinacol end ( for now) they are the grand pre formula one versions or the embryo for not so expensive models the masses can afford beholding drill down features drip feed.
The G3 as I call them are not silly, in the left hand they are like rivals in the right hand they are one and work collectively like other major monopolies, however as nitrogen and electric cars are a threat to the oil industry so is the rapidly changing digital smart phone - video and the internet industry to the camera world and that's evident by plummeting global industry sales.
Regardless of the G3 and their collective strategies to adapt for survival the core fact that doesn't change is its still only a photograph we want to take or make, the real threat to not only the G3 but to us photographers is Video which is killing the industry in so many fields. Weddings, 5% stills 95% video says it all. G5 II G6 streaming to all devises is the other.
Drones are now flying Sony A1 and A7 series and doing things we couldn't imagine, the game is bigger than we think and the minimum bets are now becoming high roller level mostly leaving many of us in a pool of apathy, gee it was a nice hobby its now becoming for many of us a challenge to keep up with the new technology financially, those that can afford to stay in the came will pay what ever the G3 charges.
Nikon has some special proprietary technology no one else has and so far hasn't released it, they can take the Samsung approach and license out such technology and paly in the 3rd row all the time and enjoy profits on the sale of every camera and leave it to Sony and Canon to retail, who knows who cares....what's happened to photography or better still what will happen to photography.
There is a real pandemic of Apathy spread throughout so many camera clubs now, many members who enjoyed the world of photography are feeling left out or behind in the affordability stakes or the ability to keep upgrading........... I guess this is no different to many other situations involving change........
Bottom line......for many its a question of .............be prepared to part with some real money if you want to play what is becoming more a High roller game, or simply enjoy what you have got......which is where a lot of people are at.
Our club membership has dropped from 400 to190, gee do these figures seem familiar with global camera sales, we have a drive on to generate new members to pull down the average age, but new members are mostly all into smartphones and video, so now we are considering setting up a smart phone Sig group category, we have members now also introducing many landscape shots with Drones.
Only an opinion
OZ down under
Sxot
Member
I suspect the reason Nikon is taking so long to release the Z9 is in order to perfect the AF so that it's comparable to Sony. After all that's really what they historically did better than others with DSLRs and are now behind with mirrorless.
Sadly there won't be a Nikon mirrorless in my future. When they changed the lens mount they opened the door to consider other options. My cabinet full of lenses is no longer an anchor. Nikon began to disappoint with the long delay of the D500, continued with QC issues on the D800 followed by delayed deliveries on multiple products that continue to plague them. Around the same time that I purchased the D800 that had to be returned for recall repairs I also purchased a 500mm f4G. It also had to have warranty work done due to being so far out of tune that max correction in either of three camera bodies could not correct it. How could it even make it out of the factory like that? Bottom line I've lost confidence in them as a company. This after spending tens of thousands on their "flagship" bodies and "exotic" lenses. They've gotten their last dollar from me.
Last week I spent several days shooting with a guy who had a Sony A7Riv/200-600mm. He is a total novice and was nailing focus every time from a moving boat. He also had a pretty high keeper rate on BIF which the A7 isn't really designed for. I was really impressed. I see an A1 in my future. And funded by the sale of my Nikon gear. I will be hanging on to my D850 and 500mm PF. Will have to pry them from my cold dead fingers.
Anyone still interested in some well cared for Nikon gear after that ringing endorsement can message me
Yeah Ill take that 850 & 500pf!
DaveR
Active member
I would think that to be highly unlikely. Sony only announced the A1 six months ago. I do think there will be an A1 refresh at some point, maybe more than one.
Nikon have a trend of releasing a flagship camera every four years to coincide with the Olympics so many folks are expecting the Z9 to be announced next month. I'm hoping, not expecting given Nikon's record, to know more in about 6 weeks. How long you will have to wait to get your hands on one is anybodys guess but Nikon have indicated they hope to start shipping them in Q4 this year and they will be keen to get them out for no other reason than that they will sell a ton of their excellent Z glass on the back of it.
Like you I have a 500pf that I am very reluctant to part with and just like you I have considered running a new camera system (R5 or A1) along with my current gear. Also like you I have made a decision to invest in a 600mm and that will require deep pockets. I really don't have a firm idea at this point if it will be a Nikon, Sony or Canon 600mm, I really don't but I do know it will take even deeper pockets to put right if I make the wrong decision. It looks like there is a long wait for long glass at the moment whatever brand it is and I'm not compromising by buying a zoom no matter how good people say they are. So really I am being driven by the purchase of a lens rather then the purchase of a camera. Having said that I'm itching to move to ML for it's well documented advantages.
So I've decided have patience and wait a while longer to see how things pan out. After all, patience is a quality that will get you better bird pictures than deep pockets
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ChrisM
Well-known member
Your experience is another one in line with the other ones that make the right of existence of the expensive traditional f2.8 and f4 super telelenses questionable.
I assume that the same will/would apply to lenses like the 400/2.8 and 600/4. These could be made redundant by 400/4PF and 600/5.6PF lenses.
That is, íf yours and other experiences are really accurate.
I will soon find out for myself. But I guess that the camera makers should really look into a 600mm f5.6PF/DO lens.
My feeling is Nikon, the DSLR leader in autofocus, made a fatal error with the Z and ZII cameras leaving the company in a deep competitive hole when it comes to mirrorless AF performance for fast action, such as birds in flight. Whether the autofocus issue was by design (keep them buying DSLRs - don't cannibalize our DSLR sales - keep treating our base as captured customers with little choice) or just bad design and engineering is irrelevant. The cameras do not compete today with Canon and SONY in fast action photography like birds in flight.
My sense is Nikon does not have the financial resources of Canon and SONY. In the two years between the Z and the ZII Nikon did next to nothing to improve AF for fast action photography. I can only sense not having the financial resources to re-engineer the Z was the reason, the Z AF issue was well known. Nikon introduces products but does not have the resource to deliver them to customers, granted some of this is due to the pandemic but closing manufacturing plants and weak financials must also have an impact. Even introducing macro lenses challenges Nikon's ability to deliver.
Will the Z9 be as good as the A1 and the R3/5 when it finally ships to customers over a year after these cameras are in customers hands? It might even be more than a year following delivery of the A1 to customers. Who knows.
Mentally I have made the decision to buy the A1 and the SONY 200-600 to begin my migration to mirrorless. I am waiting for SONY to fix the EVF blackout issue. I just feel that spending about $10,000 on a camera and lens with a known issue is problematic for me and deserves to be fixed by SONY.
My sense is Nikon does not have the financial resources of Canon and SONY. In the two years between the Z and the ZII Nikon did next to nothing to improve AF for fast action photography. I can only sense not having the financial resources to re-engineer the Z was the reason, the Z AF issue was well known. Nikon introduces products but does not have the resource to deliver them to customers, granted some of this is due to the pandemic but closing manufacturing plants and weak financials must also have an impact. Even introducing macro lenses challenges Nikon's ability to deliver.
Will the Z9 be as good as the A1 and the R3/5 when it finally ships to customers over a year after these cameras are in customers hands? It might even be more than a year following delivery of the A1 to customers. Who knows.
Mentally I have made the decision to buy the A1 and the SONY 200-600 to begin my migration to mirrorless. I am waiting for SONY to fix the EVF blackout issue. I just feel that spending about $10,000 on a camera and lens with a known issue is problematic for me and deserves to be fixed by SONY.
arbitrage
Well-known member
I think the Z9 will deliver on performance. (unlikely better than R5/A1 but still will deliver).
I don't think anyone will get one delivered to them until 2nd half of 2022....unless you are an Olympic or other high-end professional sports photographer....
I don't think anyone will get one delivered to them until 2nd half of 2022....unless you are an Olympic or other high-end professional sports photographer....
This is speculation on my part, just thinking out loud:
More and more I'm starting to think Nikon AF issues are a symptom of slower readout speeds from the sensor and the extra steps required to get that information compared to a stacked sensor. Sony mentioned that the a1 checks focus 120 times a second and the a9ii is half that at 60. I wonder if the readout speed of the current sensors (which are just normal DSLR sensor modified for PDAF as far as I can tell) limits Nikon to something like 15 or 20 reads per second. That seems fast, until you put an erratic target in that that's constantly chaining shape (i.e. a flying flapping bird). The camera may simply not be able to get enough data points fast enough to track in some cases.
Now, continuing to speculate, if the only problem is the speed of the sensor readout, then a stacked sensor design may very well fix it.
I hope that's the case. After shooting Sony and a little bit of Canon, I think I like Nikon's approach to AF areas slightly better, at least for what I do. If on top of that they could have real subject tracking that worked, it would help tremendously.
More and more I'm starting to think Nikon AF issues are a symptom of slower readout speeds from the sensor and the extra steps required to get that information compared to a stacked sensor. Sony mentioned that the a1 checks focus 120 times a second and the a9ii is half that at 60. I wonder if the readout speed of the current sensors (which are just normal DSLR sensor modified for PDAF as far as I can tell) limits Nikon to something like 15 or 20 reads per second. That seems fast, until you put an erratic target in that that's constantly chaining shape (i.e. a flying flapping bird). The camera may simply not be able to get enough data points fast enough to track in some cases.
Now, continuing to speculate, if the only problem is the speed of the sensor readout, then a stacked sensor design may very well fix it.
I hope that's the case. After shooting Sony and a little bit of Canon, I think I like Nikon's approach to AF areas slightly better, at least for what I do. If on top of that they could have real subject tracking that worked, it would help tremendously.
arbitrage
Well-known member
Readout has to be a big part of the AF performance. Sony reports their A7 series sensors do 20 AF calculations per second. This is likely tied to the sensor readout speed and to the processing horsepower. But it isn’t the only factor. I found my A7RIV to be more confidence inspiring for BIF AF than my Z7/Z50. Sensor read speeds are similar between those cameras but Sony had better tracking algorithms. Those better algorithms then combined with faster A9 (1/160) and A1(1/240) sensor read speeds has propelled them ahead. The R5 is pretty impressive with “only” 1/60s scan speeds and yet excellent AF due to the processor and algorithms.
I’m sure the stacked sensor in the Z9 will allow faster read speeds and if Nikon combines that with new AF programming and a new processor things should deliver!
O
Well-known member
I hear you loud and clear........ but why cant Nikon fix this, its not that hard, there has to be a reason a choice by Nikon for not simply fixing this, they have the technology and skills to fix this, meanwhile they are choosing to fall behind....its Bazar, wouldn't you if you where CEO push to fix this issue........its almost like their throwing the game.
The only thing I can think of is that Nikon can fix this for stills but they don't have the ability to make it work fully for video ? that could be the stumbling block.
Only an opinion
Oz Down Under
I actually don't doubt that the Z9 will be a terrific camera, and that any "shortcomings" relative to say, the Sony A1 will be a matter of quibbles and features that are more important to some photographers than to others (including me, most likely). My issue (first world type, definitely) is time, i.e., it seems pretty clear that by the time the camera is introduced (late fall, say), first shipped (early 2022) and then finally provided to non-NPS peons like myself (assuming I can scrape together the considerable $$), it will be a year from now and (sigh) probably more. I am no spring chicken, and as I feel myself sloooowly deteriorating physically (and being glad it's slowly and not quickly, at least), I have this image of a "good" year in which I might have made great use of a Sony A1 but instead daydreamed about a future Nikon Z9.
ALSO, the reality for some of us is that we will mainly be using the Z9 with F lenses and the FTZ converter, which does work well, but let's get real, not as well/fast as native Z lenses. My 500mm f5.6PF works fine with my Z7, but the autofocus is clearly not as fast as with my DSLRs. So for another who-knows-how-long a period, I would be using the Z9 with mostly F mount lenses, which I will sell off one by one (for declining prices) as the Z lenses slowly become available at their very high prices. This transition will continue over several years.
In the end, Nikon may well have reestablished a competitive position. It took years for Nikon to catch up to Canon in terms of IS/VR long telephotos, but once it did finally catch up, people eventually forgot, pretty much, how long a period it was when Canon clearly was superior in this regard.
When I think about things this way, I have an impulse to sell off my Nikon gear (this after being a Nikon guy since 1968) and finish out my life using a pared-down kit comprising Sony gear. Considering that I am by nature a cautious person, however, I probably won't do this, and will fall back to my default stance that my current "obsolete" Nikon gear serves me adequately well and having the latest and the greatest bleeding edge gear is not as important as all that.
I definitely have too much time on my hands.
ALSO, the reality for some of us is that we will mainly be using the Z9 with F lenses and the FTZ converter, which does work well, but let's get real, not as well/fast as native Z lenses. My 500mm f5.6PF works fine with my Z7, but the autofocus is clearly not as fast as with my DSLRs. So for another who-knows-how-long a period, I would be using the Z9 with mostly F mount lenses, which I will sell off one by one (for declining prices) as the Z lenses slowly become available at their very high prices. This transition will continue over several years.
In the end, Nikon may well have reestablished a competitive position. It took years for Nikon to catch up to Canon in terms of IS/VR long telephotos, but once it did finally catch up, people eventually forgot, pretty much, how long a period it was when Canon clearly was superior in this regard.
When I think about things this way, I have an impulse to sell off my Nikon gear (this after being a Nikon guy since 1968) and finish out my life using a pared-down kit comprising Sony gear. Considering that I am by nature a cautious person, however, I probably won't do this, and will fall back to my default stance that my current "obsolete" Nikon gear serves me adequately well and having the latest and the greatest bleeding edge gear is not as important as all that.
I definitely have too much time on my hands.
KP Birder
Active member
That is exactly what I was thinking while reading this thread!If I ever got 10% keepers out of all my outings, I'd think I died and gone to heaven. Remember the days when there was 1 good slide out of a roll of 36? That's 2.8% and it was an awesome day
Yes, exactly. And therein lies the rub . . .
Ditto. Pretty much verbatim.
Realistically I have no need of anything beyond the D850. It would be nice to have even better AF for shooting BIF but I miss more shots from my inability to hold the subject in the center of the VF than from the camera AF failing. I've also got the grip and larger batteries which gives me 10fps if/when desired. So if I'm smart I never buy another piece of camera equipment and spend my budget on traveling to exotic places to shoot with what I've already got. OK maybe buy a lightly used D850 body for backup and for when this one wears out. If I do decide that I can't live without animal eye AF then I'll wait until the Sony A1 is in stock and readily available or go with the A9ii. Either way my future with Nikon is set. I don't see any Z kit in my future.