Z9 Firmware 2.0: feedback on AF, RSF...

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Aren't your first 2 bullets essentially the same? If your AF-ON using C2 doesn't grab focus, how can pressing the multi-selector help when you have configured the same AF area mode to it?

pwaring said:
I'm curious how you're all setting up your controls and if there's much change due to the new firmware. I get that it'll take time to adapt to any changes as AF improvements could mean we start favouring some modes more than we did.

I think I'll try the following with firmware 2.00:
  • Back Button AF on AF-ON (Shutter does not AF). Default shooting mode set to Wide C2 (biggest possible rectangle)
  • Multi-selector below AF-ON set to engage AF + Wide C2 (for when something happens and I just want to jam a button and try to grab it)
  • F1 and F3 set to 3D (I keep F3 the same as F1 for vertical shooting)
  • F2 set to Wide C1 (smallest possible square)
  • Lens 1 and 2 set to RSF (hold) - disable subject detection
  • Record button set to be an AF-mode selector to easily change the default AF mode
I think I'll also have a 2nd custom control bank variant where I have RSF (hold) on Lens 1 and 2 and F2 where it sets shutter speed, ISO and AF-mode (Wide C1 or Single Point). I can use this as a low shutter speed for still portraits before just pressing it again to pop back into "action" mode.

When I hand-hold the 400 Z my hands aren't quite big enough to naturally have a finger fall near one of the 4 buttons near the front. Hopefully I can get used to quickly using them for RSF (Hold). Using them for a toggle like that should definitely be easier than having to hold the buttons down.
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thelordofthelight said:
Aren't your first 2 bullets essentially the same? If your AF-ON using C2 doesn't grab focus, how can pressing the multi-selector help when you have configured the same AF area mode to it?
Click to expand...

They are but only if I haven't changed the default shooting mode. I'd expect that to be pretty fluid but the multi-selector would always be a button I can jab (I may go back to auto-AF for it) whilst aiming and hopefully get something in focus. This would be for if i'm doing stuff with some smaller focus point as the default but then some bigger action happens that I won't be able to track with a small point.
 
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fcotterill said:
4. If RSF Hold is active, changing exposure settings is then saved; this modification the applies if you have setup RSF in another Custom Bank(s)
Click to expand...

Just wanted to get some clarification on this one.

For example lets say my main camera settings are for action like 1/2000s, wide-open, ISO as needed and I have an RSF (Hold) set for non-action like 1/250s, 2/3 stop down from wide open, ISO as needed. If I'm in the Hold and I change any of my exposure settings like say my ISO then it will automatically update the RSF list to that new ISO? Then if I go out of the Hold and then back into it it will be using that new ISO? If that is correct, does changing the exposure settings while in the Hold have any affect on my normal settings (1/2000, wide-open, ISO whatever)?
If no then that seems fine to me.

This would then be very similar to how Canon C1-3 modes work if you select Canon's option for Auto Update Set (or something like that). I liked using it this way as I could tweak my C1-3 (or for Nikon RSF Hold) settings while in that mode due to changing light and it would auto-save for when I next toggled back into the C1. I really like that way IF I'm using it for a new set of exposure variables....as long as it isn't having an affect on my normal exposure variables when not in the RSF.

I thought that when I read the D6 manual before the Z9 was released that RSF Hold worked like this or at least had an option to make it work like this. Would be nice if it was like Canon C1-3 where you have the option to either have the new exposure settings auto update the RSF or to not update so that when you switch out and back in it goes back to your original RSF list set in the menu.
 
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PAUL50 said:
Any guess whether we will see pre-capture for RAW in a later firmware update?
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I have a feeling if they could have done it with RAW they would have. I think the tiny buffer they put in bit them in the hindquarters on this one. I'm guessing it's just not large enough to hold a meaningful number of RAWs and be able to keep up once actual capture starts.
 
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pwaring said:
They are but only if I haven't changed the default shooting mode. I'd expect that to be pretty fluid but the multi-selector would always be a button I can jab (I may go back to auto-AF for it) whilst aiming and hopefully get something in focus. This would be for if i'm doing stuff with some smaller focus point as the default but then some bigger action happens that I won't be able to track with a small point.
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That makes sense. I've ran cameras in that sort of config in the past. Useful if your main AF mode is somewhat fluid and not always going to be in WA-C2.
 
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arbitrage said:
Just wanted to get some clarification on this one.

For example lets say my main camera settings are for action like 1/2000s, wide-open, ISO as needed and I have an RSF (Hold) set for non-action like 1/250s, 2/3 stop down from wide open, ISO as needed. If I'm in the Hold and I change any of my exposure settings like say my ISO then it will automatically update the RSF list to that new ISO? Then if I go out of the Hold and then back into it it will be using that new ISO? If that is correct, does changing the exposure settings while in the Hold have any affect on my normal settings (1/2000, wide-open, ISO whatever)?
If no then that seems fine to me.

This would then be very similar to how Canon C1-3 modes work if you select Canon's option for Auto Update Set (or something like that). I liked using it this way as I could tweak my C1-3 (or for Nikon RSF Hold) settings while in that mode due to changing light and it would auto-save for when I next toggled back into the C1. I really like that way IF I'm using it for a new set of exposure variables....as long as it isn't having an affect on my normal exposure variables when not in the RSF.

I thought that when I read the D6 manual before the Z9 was released that RSF Hold worked like this or at least had an option to make it work like this. Would be nice if it was like Canon C1-3 where you have the option to either have the new exposure settings auto update the RSF or to not update so that when you switch out and back in it goes back to your original RSF list set in the menu.
Click to expand...

I think it would work fine for what you'd like. RSF (Hold) will remember the exposure variables that you've told it to recall. If you set it to recall only shutter speed and ISO but then change your aperture when using RSF (Hold) then it will impact your settings when you switch back, but a change to shutter speed or ISO would not.

The issue that foctterill mentions is that if you have multiple custom control banks set up to have RSF change shutter speed (such as Bank 1 sets it to 1/250s and Bank 2 to 1/500s) then if you're on Bank 1 and you tweak the shutter speed during RSF (Hold) then it will also update the value held in Bank 2 in addition to saving it to Bank 1. This seems like a bug. I really just need the one set and for them to remember my adjustments so this doesn't really affect me.
 
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Steve said:
I have a feeling if they could have done it with RAW they would have. I think the tiny buffer they put in bit them in the hindquarters on this one. I'm guessing it's just not large enough to hold a meaningful number of RAWs and be able to keep up once actual capture starts.
Click to expand...
My hope is that there is enough room in the buffer to do something with RAW and precapture. I would be happier even if they used HE Raw* (or even HE Raw), limited it to 15 or 20 fps and had precapture for only 1/2 a second max rather than 1 second max.
 
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Steve said:
I have a feeling if they could have done it with RAW they would have. I think the tiny buffer they put in bit them in the hindquarters on this one. I'm guessing it's just not large enough to hold a meaningful number of RAWs and be able to keep up once actual capture starts.
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Thanks Steve.
 
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Steve said:
I have a feeling if they could have done it with RAW they would have. I think the tiny buffer they put in bit them in the hindquarters on this one. I'm guessing it's just not large enough to hold a meaningful number of RAWs and be able to keep up once actual capture starts.
Click to expand...

i think part of the problem is what use case they think they are solving. based on the large (1 second) pre-burst, i think they are solving a different use case than those of us who just want one or two tenths of a second to compensate for human reaction time. i suspect if they considered our use case they could probably do it.

also, the HE*, HE are a lot smaller and thus could fit more in the buffer.

that said, it also may be a hardware architectural issue and i suspect there has long been very hardware optimized jpg handling, so it may be that jpg fits into the pipeline in a way that the compressed raws cannot. in that case the answer will likely remain "no" even if they wanted to address our use case.
 
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I think there's something more at play than simply buffer or storage bandwidth that prevented them from implementing pre-capture for RAW, for two reasons:
  1. C30 writes JPEG/Fine* at 30fps, whereas HE RAWs are "only" 20fps. So HE RAW @ 20fps is less demanding even if the files were the same size.
  2. HE RAWs are smaller than JPEG/Fine
My guess at this mystery is that C30 and C120 probably use the camera's video pipeline, and so pre-capture was simply a matter of increasing the number of video frames written to the buffer. That's way easier to implement than developing a pre-capture system like Oly has.

Just my hypothesis, with no solid info to back it up!

For my part, I'll use pre-capture for sports so long as the lighting isn't too crazy. For wildlife, I'll hold out hope for HE RAW pre-capture.
 
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Let's say the total RAW buffer is 4 seconds (in 14 bit compressed) if the pre capture is for 1 second it simply means post capture will be limited to 3 seconds right? Or am I missing anything?

Steve said:
I have a feeling if they could have done it with RAW they would have. I think the tiny buffer they put in bit them in the hindquarters on this one. I'm guessing it's just not large enough to hold a meaningful number of RAWs and be able to keep up once actual capture starts.
Click to expand...
 
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Chris K said:
I think there's something more at play than simply buffer or storage bandwidth that prevented them from implementing pre-capture for RAW, for two reasons:
  1. C30 writes JPEG/Fine* at 30fps, whereas HE RAWs are "only" 20fps. So HE RAW @ 20fps is less demanding even if the files were the same size.
  2. HE RAWs are smaller than JPEG/Fine
My guess at this mystery is that C30 and C120 probably use the camera's video pipeline, and so pre-capture was simply a matter of increasing the number of video frames written to the buffer. That's way easier to implement than developing a pre-capture system like Oly has.

Just my hypothesis, with no solid info to back it up!

For my part, I'll use pre-capture for sports so long as the lighting isn't too crazy. For wildlife, I'll hold out hope for HE RAW pre-capture.
Click to expand...
If the camera is using the video pipeline then precapture should be possible with 12 bit raw up to 60fps
 
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I dont think its using the video side to capture the high speed jpegs. The video side does have more rolling shutter than the stills side from what has been reported and that rolling shutter wouldnt be very useful for action shots.
 
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Chris K said:
My guess at this mystery is that C30 and C120 probably use the camera's video pipeline, and so pre-capture was simply a matter of increasing the number of video frames written to the buffer. That's way easier to implement than developing a pre-capture system like Oly has.
Click to expand...
that seems like a brilliant hypothesis. although afaik, video codecs tend to be differential (ie, recording what changed as a delta of the last frame), so it would have to be a bit more complicated than that i think. however maybe there is some built in logic to pull frames out as jpgs?
 
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