Z9 Firmware 2.0: feedback on AF, RSF...

[Griffym]

I am enjoying the option to have 4 different RSF Hold settings at last. It means I can set up with 4 different scenarios. Fn3 which is RSF hold on Bank B (Custom B) boosts the camera to 20fps, 3D tracking, animal subject detection. All I need now is a chance to try it out fully in the field. The normal bank B setting is 12fps, auto subject wide L.
I note that the hold drops out to the standard bank B settings if the camera goes to sleep. I will need to change how long it waits before doing this I think.

 

[padrepaul]

I was out using the 2.0 firmware today and I wanted to pass this along...

It looks like the behavior of subject detection with the Wide AF areas has changed. Normally, when you have a wide AF area, if it's anywhere on a recognized subject, the camera will go for the body, face, or eye.

WIth that in mind, I tried the Custom Wide AF area down to a single point. When I pointed at a gull's face, subject detection easily found the eye. However, when I moved the AF area away from the face, it gave up the eye and it appeared subject detection simply allowed the Wide AF area to work as normal. When I've done that test in the past with the Wide (S or L) area, as long as I had pretty much any part of the bird under the AF area, it still went to the eye. Now, you have to have the eye either under the AF area of very close to it.

I thought maybe this was due to the size of the AF area so I payed with that. In every instance, when the eye was out of and just a bit away from the Wide AF area, the camera wouldn't keep on it anymore (sometimes it would go for the body if the body was under the AF area, as expected). I also tried this with the normal Wide (L) and (S) areas with the same results.

I tried this on a variety of targets and found the same thing happening over and over. It seems like they made a change to the way this works.

However, if that's the case, I think it was actually the right move. I've had all sorts of trouble with subject detection focusing on the wrong areas of the target even when I had the wide AF area where I wanted it. I think this will actually improve my overall keeper rate.

Anyhow, I wanted to pass this along and ask that if you have a chance, test and see what happens. I'd like to try to confirm what I'm experiencing.

Hi Steve, thanks - with that in mind do you have any changes in your recommendations for perched and birds in flight? Was thinking Wide Area AF or Custom Wide Area AF for in flgiht, auto AF for perched...

 

[sh1209]

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[Steve]

Hi Steve, thanks - with that in mind do you have any changes in your recommendations for perched and birds in flight? Was thinking Wide Area AF or Custom Wide Area AF for in flgiht, auto AF for perched...

Still working it out.

I think it should be better for BIF work. One of my major issues with the Z9 and subject detection is when it didn't see the face it went for the body - even if I had the AF area on the face. This seems like it has potential to solve that issue. I tested briefly tonight and it was promising.

For perched, I'd prefer single point, 3D, and now maybe a custom Wide whittled down to a single point. It really depends on how well subject detection is "seeing" the bird. If it's having no issue, Auto is probably the best choice. However, if it's on and off, that "single point" Wide AF area is nice. Lots of overlap. For an easy bird, any of the above will work equally well.

 

[padrepaul]

Still working it out.

I think it should be better for BIF work. One of my major issues with the Z9 and subject detection is when it didn't see the face it went for the body - even if I had the AF area on the face. This seems like it has potential to solve that issue. I tested briefly tonight and it was promising.

For perched, I'd prefer single point, 3D, and now maybe a custom Wide whittled down to a single point. It really depends on how well subject detection is "seeing" the bird. If it's having no issue, Auto is probably the best choice. However, if it's on and off, that "single point" Wide AF area is nice. Lots of overlap. For an easy bird, any of the above will work equally well.

Thanks, Steve, looking forward to testing it. Hopefully with the 800 6.3 soon; manual is posted now so that has to be a good sign I hope.

 

[sh1209]

Still working it out.

I think it should be better for BIF work. One of my major issues with the Z9 and subject detection is when it didn't see the face it went for the body - even if I had the AF area on the face. This seems like it has potential to solve that issue. I tested briefly tonight and it was promising.

For perched, I'd prefer single point, 3D, and now maybe a custom Wide whittled down to a single point. It really depends on how well subject detection is "seeing" the bird. If it's having no issue, Auto is probably the best choice. However, if it's on and off, that "single point" Wide AF area is nice. Lots of overlap. For an easy bird, any of the above will work equally well.

So are you saying you typically don’t use subject detection with perched birds?

 

[sid_19911991]

Does the 2.0 update wipe out settings? (ie, do I need to save my custom settings?)

It didn't change mine.

 

[sid_19911991]

Just updated my Z9 and the first thing I tested was the 120FPS EVF and WOW! I could see an obvious difference between 120 FPS and 60 FPS. All i did was to point the camera to a clutter/ leaves and then pan it at 60 FPS vs 120 FPS and the latter is more pleasant to follow/ pan. I'm sure this will be a killer feature for fast action panning like swallows and flycatchers. I just added this function to the top of my menu list, configured to video record button.

RSF is a disappointment, like you said.

The 19X11 wide box is awesome. Doesn't extend throughout the screen but is still significantly bigger then Wide-L and covers the most critical part of the frame that we'd generally use to compose so this is great.

Can't wait to go out and test to see if there are meaningful AF improvements (tracking stickiness, shooting against clutter etc.)

1) Oh, I will be using the 120 refresh rate all the time...unless I am on a safari & need to conserve battery. Can't go back now...

2) The 19*11 custom wide area mode is basically the Zone AF mode size on the Sony. When in FX mode the size is perfect for BIF.

3) The custom single-point box with subject detection is perfect for slow-moving birds or mammals in a clutter.

 

[sid_19911991]

I believe pre-capture only works in the 30 and 120 fps modes, both of which are jpeg only. You can't do it when you're in 20 fps RAW.

That's a bummer. I hope Nikon can give 1 second or half-second pre-capture for large jpegs in raw mode. That would be so helpful. One doesn't really need the post-capture option. Even Ricci was disappointed by the limitations. If Nikon can give us 12-bit internal 8k 60 raw, surely this is no big deal. Common Nikon!

 

[BillW]

I was out using the 2.0 firmware today and I wanted to pass this along...

It looks like the behavior of subject detection with the Wide AF areas has changed. Normally, when you have a wide AF area, if it's anywhere on a recognized subject, the camera will go for the body, face, or eye.

WIth that in mind, I tried the Custom Wide AF area down to a single point. When I pointed at a gull's face, subject detection easily found the eye. However, when I moved the AF area away from the face, it gave up the eye and it appeared subject detection simply allowed the Wide AF area to work as normal. When I've done that test in the past with the Wide (S or L) area, as long as I had pretty much any part of the bird under the AF area, it still went to the eye. Now, you have to have the eye either under the AF area of very close to it.

I thought maybe this was due to the size of the AF area so I payed with that. In every instance, when the eye was out of and just a bit away from the Wide AF area, the camera wouldn't keep on it anymore (sometimes it would go for the body if the body was under the AF area, as expected). I also tried this with the normal Wide (L) and (S) areas with the same results.

I tried this on a variety of targets and found the same thing happening over and over. It seems like they made a change to the way this works.

However, if that's the case, I think it was actually the right move. I've had all sorts of trouble with subject detection focusing on the wrong areas of the target even when I had the wide AF area where I wanted it. I think this will actually improve my overall keeper rate.

Anyhow, I wanted to pass this along and ask that if you have a chance, test and see what happens. I'd like to try to confirm what I'm experiencing.

Interesting. I liked the fact that wide area would look for an eye or a head outside the wide area box, at least once I understood it was doing this. I could get the box on the body or neck of a bird (say a great blue heron) and the Z9‘s AF woulid find the bird’s eye faster than I could move the AF box to the eye. I found this worked pretty well even for little blue herons surrounded by lots of foliage. If I got wide area box on the bird the Z9 would quickly go to the eye (at least if the eye was not directly behind a leaf or branch).

If this is not now the case, will there be a difference between simple single point and a custom wide area box reduced to the same size?

 

[fcotterill]

In addition to the supplementary manual for the new firmware, Nikon has a chart of available button customizations. Haven't worked through it yet.

https://download.nikonimglib.com/archive5/75vkl00gtab905Ezt2J35jAiML37/Z9_CustomControls_List_(En)01.pdf

Thank you, very useful indeed. Unprecedented.

And Nikon's breaking new ground in its Public Relations with this publication

 

[thelordofthelight]

I think most if not all the items with fw 2.0 were things that Nikon was already working on prior to the Z9 launch. Pre capture is probably a new item but not sure. Maybe they'll reserve some more features for fw 3.0? Things like 30 fps in HE Raw mode, pre capture in HE raw etc.

I hope they do a 2.5 revision that's purely targeted on customization like assigning subject detect on/off , ability to assign any short cut to back DISP button, more than 1 RSF /RSF hold and a few other items listed by Brad Hill and TH.

Haven't tested the Z9 yet but does anyone know if they addressed the issue with assigning spot metering to a custom fn?

 

[fcotterill]

Just wanted to get some clarification on this one.

For example lets say my main camera settings are for action like 1/2000s, wide-open, ISO as needed and I have an RSF (Hold) set for non-action like 1/250s, 2/3 stop down from wide open, ISO as needed. If I'm in the Hold and I change any of my exposure settings like say my ISO then it will automatically update the RSF list to that new ISO? Then if I go out of the Hold and then back into it it will be using that new ISO? If that is correct, does changing the exposure settings while in the Hold have any affect on my normal settings (1/2000, wide-open, ISO whatever)?
If no then that seems fine to me.

This would then be very similar to how Canon C1-3 modes work if you select Canon's option for Auto Update Set (or something like that). I liked using it this way as I could tweak my C1-3 (or for Nikon RSF Hold) settings while in that mode due to changing light and it would auto-save for when I next toggled back into the C1. I really like that way IF I'm using it for a new set of exposure variables....as long as it isn't having an affect on my normal exposure variables when not in the RSF.

I thought that when I read the D6 manual before the Z9 was released that RSF Hold worked like this or at least had an option to make it work like this. Would be nice if it was like Canon C1-3 where you have the option to either have the new exposure settings auto update the RSF or to not update so that when you switch out and back in it goes back to your original RSF list set in the menu.

Yes, it keeps the RSF stored the new updated exposure settings, so they operate next time RSF is activated. It allows changing Shutter, Aperture, ISO and also Auto ISO.

I think it would work fine for what you'd like. RSF (Hold) will remember the exposure variables that you've told it to recall. If you set it to recall only shutter speed and ISO but then change your aperture when using RSF (Hold) then it will impact your settings when you switch back, but a change to shutter speed or ISO would not.

The issue that foctterill mentions is that if you have multiple custom control banks set up to have RSF change shutter speed (such as Bank 1 sets it to 1/250s and Bank 2 to 1/500s) then if you're on Bank 1 and you tweak the shutter speed during RSF (Hold) then it will also update the value held in Bank 2 in addition to saving it to Bank 1. This seems like a bug. I really just need the one set and for them to remember my adjustments so this doesn't really affect me.

Yes, I see this is a bug. I don't have a second Z9 running v1.11 to compare all the details, but previously I had 4 different RSF settings: set for faster vs slower exposure events (besides different frame rates, AF etc). My testing so far the exposure settings are applied across all 4 Custom banks.

It makes no difference if Extended Menu Banks is OFF or ON in the Shooting bank. Neither if pairs of Shooting-Custom Banks are switched together etc....

 

[fcotterill]

Still working it out.

I think it should be better for BIF work. One of my major issues with the Z9 and subject detection is when it didn't see the face it went for the body - even if I had the AF area on the face. This seems like it has potential to solve that issue. I tested briefly tonight and it was promising.

For perched, I'd prefer single point, 3D, and now maybe a custom Wide whittled down to a single point. It really depends on how well subject detection is "seeing" the bird. If it's having no issue, Auto is probably the best choice. However, if it's on and off, that "single point" Wide AF area is nice. Lots of overlap. For an easy bird, any of the above will work equally well.

Currently testing 6 Custom Areas set up across 3 Shooting Banks. I've grown rather fond of the VL and HL Group modes in the D5. The Z9 is much better. It lets you shorten the focusing bar:

• A: Single-point 1*1 h13*3; B v1*7 h13*3; D h19*7 v1*11 ;
• Yesterday I tested changing the focus between a perched flycatcher close by versus distant clutter (vegetation). The findings suggest a short vertical 1*3 or 1*7 line helps grab back the close focus: situations that tend to confuse MILC AF;
• Still testing the relationship as to how the subject-detect is behaving on a bird's eye with Custom Single-Point (C1*1). It is sticky. Hard to make out the subtleties, but did jump back into the Custom AF box when the latter was pulled off....takes 1-2 seconds it seemed;
• Single-point does stick rather well on a cat's eye even if the frame is moved/circled around his face

 

[thelordofthelight]

I see some folks trying to configure 1X1 wide box instead of single point or 3D. Isn't the 1X1 box so small to make any meaningful difference as to whether the eye af works or not? Also, for small or skittish birds, isn't 3D tracking still better considering it can move throughout the frame whereas with the 1X1 Wide area one has to physically move the box as the subject moves?

Currently testing 6 Custom Areas set up across 3 Shooting Banks. I've grown rather fond of the VL and HL Group modes in the D5. The Z9 is much better. It lets you shorten the focusing bar:

• A: Single-point 1*1 h13*3; B v1*7 h13*3; D h19*7 v1*11
• Yesterday I tested changing the focus between a perched flycatcher close by versus distant clutter (vegetation) suggests a short vertical 1*3 or 1*7 line helps grab back the close focus: situations that tend to confuse MILC AF;
• Still testing the relationship as to how the subject-detect is behaving on a bird's eye with Custom SinglePoint. It is sticky. Hard to make out the subtleties, but did jump back into the Custom AF box when the latter was pulled off....takes 1-2 seconds it seemed.
• Single-point does stick rather well on a cat's eye even if the frame is moved/circled around his face

 

[Dave Stargazer]

I had 4 different RSF settings: set for faster vs slower exposure events (besides different frame rates, AF etc). My testing so far the exposure settings are applied across all 4 Custom banks.

Yes, this is a new bug :( I reported it to Brad Hill, and he said he'd already told Nikon about it, so hopefully it will get fixed in the next firmware update (hoping for a 2.01 soon - I'm sure there will be a few issues with all they put into this release).

120Hz viewfinder is a big improvement to my eye for anything moving fast.

Cheers!

 

[fcotterill]

I see some folks trying to configure 1X1 wide box instead of single point or 3D. Isn't the 1X1 box so small to make any meaningful difference as to whether the eye af works or not? Also, for small or skittish birds, isn't 3D tracking still better considering it can move throughout the frame whereas with the 1X1 Wide area one has to physically move the box as the subject moves?

Not so far IME. I've been waiting impatiently for this 1*1 alternative to the standard Single-Point to drill through clutter etc. Thanks to this upgrade, I find the closest full-screen analogue is AutoAF mode. But the tighter area avoids grabbing on to the foreground that is the foible of AutoAF.
Unlike previously, 1*1 now exploits the patterns from Subject Detect CSP [Closest Subject Priority]. In key respects, C-Area 1*1 works more like a version of D5/D6 Group Area squeezed into a finer point BUT with subject-detection and thus more stickiness.
But I agree, 3D is still preferable if suitable habitats, although I think it's worth testing a larger C-Area such as 19*5, or 13*5

 

[fcotterill]

Yes, this is a new bug :( I reported it to Brad Hill, and he said he'd already told Nikon about it, so hopefully it will get fixed in the next firmware update (hoping for a 2.01 soon - I'm sure there will be a few issues with all they put into this release).

120Hz viewfinder is a big improvement to my eye for anything moving fast.

Cheers!

Thanks for telling him, I owe Brad an email but I have been waiting to do more testing. I expect he's aslo testing this firmware and will blog key findings fairly soon.

Overall, FW 2.0 is a delight in so many aspects

 

[thelordofthelight]

I agree with you but practically the only reason to use a smaller AF point would be when shooting in challenging conditions where the auto or semi-auto modes fail. I was just doing a comparison between Single point vs 1X1 wide. I notice the 1X1 box behaving exactly like any other wide AF, which it should. So, the small box can still wander a bit around or away from the box and this is where I feel the traditional single point AF would still be the preferred option for shooting through clutter. One of the use cases I'd like to check is to see if the 1X1 wide behaves better when there is an obvious subject with a clean background where the Z9 ( and all the other mirrorless cameras) fail to acquire focus even with single point focus. The one problem that Ray Hennessy highlighted.

Not so far IME. I've been waiting impatiently for this 1*1 alternative to the standard Single-Point to drill through clutter etc. Thanks to this upgrade, I find the closest full-screen analogue is AutoAF mode. But the tighter area avoids grabbing on to the foreground that is the foible of AutoAF.
Unlike previously, 1*1 now exploits the patterns from Subject Detect CSP [Closest Subject Priority]. In key respects, C-Area 1*1 works more like a version of D5/D6 Group Area squeezed into a finer point BUT with subject-detection and thus more stickiness.
But I agree, 3D is still preferable if suitable habitats, although I think it's worth testing a larger C-Area such as 19*5, or 13*5

 

[Steve]

So are you saying you typically don’t use subject detection with perched birds?

No, I do if I can

It all depends on how well it's sticking to that particular bird. If it easily sees the eye (as it usually does), I'll use subject detection with whatever AF area I happen to be using. If it's hit or miss, I use a smaller area and do it myself

 

[Steve]

Interesting. I liked the fact that wide area would look for an eye or a head outside the wide area box, at least once I understood it was doing this. I could get the box on the body or neck of a bird (say a great blue heron) and the Z9‘s AF woulid find the bird’s eye faster than I could move the AF box to the eye. I found this worked pretty well even for little blue herons surrounded by lots of foliage. If I got wide area box on the bird the Z9 would quickly go to the eye (at least if the eye was not directly behind a leaf or branch).

If this is not now the case, will there be a difference between simple single point and a custom wide area box reduced to the same size?

I wish they let us use it both ways TBH. There are times it's nice to just loosely keep a Wide AF area on the subject. Again, there are initial impressions, I'll be doing more testing.

Without subject detection the smallest Wide AF area is exactly like single point AF. WIth subject detection on though, as long as you are close to the eye it'll still jump to it. I think it may turn out to be very handy. The thing is, with regular single point, if the animal is moving you have to keep on the eye manual at all times - with the single point wide area, if you're a little sloppy it'll still keep on the eye (like, if the AF area is on the face or just below). I think it's potentially better than 3d as well in that kind of scenario since 3D will tend to wander around sometimes (yesterday it wandered all over the head and then neck of a swan for me, because subject detection wasn't seeing the eye). With a wide single point, if subject detection doesn't see the eye, AF is under the point - it dines't wander around like 3D.

So, it has some potential.

 

[BillW]

I wish they let us use it both ways TBH. There are times it's nice to just loosely keep a Wide AF area on the subject. Again, there are initial impressions, I'll be doing more testing.

Without subject detection the smallest Wide AF area is exactly like single point AF. WIth subject detection on though, as long as you are close to the eye it'll still jump to it. I think it may turn out to be very handy. The thing is, with regular single point, if the animal is moving you have to keep on the eye manual at all times - with the single point wide area, if you're a little sloppy it'll still keep on the eye (like, if the AF area is on the face or just below). I think it's potentially better than 3d as well in that kind of scenario since 3D will tend to wander around sometimes (yesterday it wandered all over the head and then neck of a swan for me, because subject detection wasn't seeing the eye). With a wide single point, if subject detection doesn't see the eye, AF is under the point - it dines't wander around like 3D.

So, it has some potential.

Thanks Steve. Makes sense. Will have to try it out today — at least as a start to see how it all fits together in different situations.

 

[BillW]

I was just looking to see if I could set up RSF (regular or hold) to bring up C30 and hence precapture, including switching me from raw or HE raw* to jpeg. I do not see how to do it. I would have expected this might be an option in the release mode subselection under RSF. But I do not see it there. I can choose continuous high, continuous low or single frame. I do not see C30 or C120. Am I missing something? The ability to call up precapture with RSF would be useful.

An interesting point on precapture. When I saw a reference to postcapture, or a post-release burst I wondered if that meant the camera would continue shooting after you let up on the shutter button. Seemed odd. I now see that it means you can place a limit to how long the camera will shoot if you continue to hold the button down in C30 or C120. Makes more sense. See the 2.0 Firmware Supplement, page 41.

 

[BillW]

I wish they let us use it both ways TBH. There are times it's nice to just loosely keep a Wide AF area on the subject. Again, there are initial impressions, I'll be doing more testing.

Without subject detection the smallest Wide AF area is exactly like single point AF. WIth subject detection on though, as long as you are close to the eye it'll still jump to it. I think it may turn out to be very handy. The thing is, with regular single point, if the animal is moving you have to keep on the eye manual at all times - with the single point wide area, if you're a little sloppy it'll still keep on the eye (like, if the AF area is on the face or just below). I think it's potentially better than 3d as well in that kind of scenario since 3D will tend to wander around sometimes (yesterday it wandered all over the head and then neck of a swan for me, because subject detection wasn't seeing the eye). With a wide single point, if subject detection doesn't see the eye, AF is under the point - it dines't wander around like 3D.

So, it has some potential.

Thanks Steve. In addition to trying 1x1, I may also give 1x3 or 1x7 (vertical) a try too.

 

[Bill G.]

See: Nikon Z9 firmware 2.0, Is It for the Birds?!