Z9 Second Thoughts

[Whiskeyman]

Spoke with someone who had a chance to briefly hold one a week or so ago. Their single comment was that they were surprised at how heavy it was compared to other mirrorless bodies. For anyone coming off of a DSLR that might not be a big deal, but it's 12oz. heavier than the R3, which I know has half the MPs, but it's the only other ergonomically similar mirrorless body which is why I bring it up, and the A1 with a grip is about the same as the R3.

Those MPs are heavy, Jake!

Seriously, the Z9 is an interesting offer from Nikon, since early on, one of the biggest benefits of mirrorless cameras was that they weren't as heavy as DSLRs. Now, we have the Z9 with its larger, heavier form factor flying into the face of improved human factors engineering.

 

[FB101]

Those MPs are heavy, Jake!

Seriously, the Z9 is an interesting offer from Nikon, since early on, one of the biggest benefits of mirrorless cameras was that they weren't as heavy as DSLRs. Now, we have the Z9 with its larger, heavier form factor flying into the face of improved human factors engineering.

I agree. Time will tell if it was the last gasp of "old school thinking" at Nikon, or if they are onto something and that there is a viable segment of market that wants ultimate durability and ruggedness over convenience (weight mainly). I don't have a good sense as to where this one will land.

 

[RichF]

Not me.

One or two? That is the question.

2 for me

 

[Ken Miracle]

Those MPs are heavy, Jake!

Seriously, the Z9 is an interesting offer from Nikon, since early on, one of the biggest benefits of mirrorless cameras was that they weren't as heavy as DSLRs. Now, we have the Z9 with its larger, heavier form factor flying into the face of improved human factors engineering.

I like the Z9 size a bit smaller than my D6 was so buttons ergonomically should fit my hands a bit better. I also like the weight not getting to light so a better balance with my 600f/4E and/or future long lenses. Those are two of many factors that triggered my pre order.

 

[NorthernFocus]

...the Z9 is an interesting offer from Nikon, since early on, one of the biggest benefits of mirrorless cameras was that they weren't as heavy as DSLRs. Now, we have the Z9 with its larger, heavier form factor flying into the face of improved human factors engineering.

Early on the lighter weight advantage was highlighted for marketing purposes as Nikon's early target audience for mirrorless wasn't really pros. They knew they didn't have a product with features needed by the core of their pro shooters. But now the target audience with the Z9 is people who are already shooting D5/6 bodies and heavy lenses. They're simply aiming to replace the same form factor with the newest tech. Many feel that the additional weight when shooting a big lens on a tripod/monopod is actually helpful for overall balance. Lighter weight isn't necessarily "improved human factors engineering" for everyone. Nikon has clearly stated that their future direction is high end equipment and key to that strategy is to hang on to their core of (mostly)professional photographers who shoot the "flagship" bodies.

Last month I spent four days in a row shooting a (new to me)D5 and gripped D850. It had been a while(maybe a year?) since I'd done any significant shooting with a "big gun". I purchased the D5 thinking I'd ride off into the sunset with it and the D850. Ironically those four days convinced me to go for the Z9. I'd forgotten how much a love shooting with those big bodies. I also didn't realize how addicted to MP I've become. To have that form factor with high rez sensor, the improvements in AF, a truly blackout free VF, and no shutter/mirror slap sounds pretty darn enticing.

 

[Ken Miracle]

Early on the lighter weight advantage was highlighted for marketing purposes as Nikon's early target audience for mirrorless wasn't really pros. They knew they didn't have a product with features needed by the core of their pro shooters. But now the target audience with the Z9 is people who are already shooting D5/6 bodies and heavy lenses. They're simply aiming to replace the same form factor with the newest tech. Many feel that the additional weight when shooting a big lens on a tripod/monopod is actually helpful for overall balance. Lighter weight isn't necessarily "improved human factors engineering" for everyone. Nikon has clearly stated that their future direction is high end equipment and key to that strategy is to hang on to their core of (mostly)professional photographers who shoot the "flagship" bodies.

Last month I spent four days in a row shooting a (new to me)D5 and gripped D850. It had been a while(maybe a year?) since I'd done any significant shooting with a "big gun". I purchased the D5 thinking I'd ride off into the sunset with it and the D850. Ironically those four days convinced me to go for the Z9. I'd forgotten how much a love shooting with those big bodies. I also didn't realize how addicted to MP I've become. To have that form factor with high rez sensor, the improvements in AF, a truly blackout free VF, and no shutter/mirror slap sounds pretty darn enticing.

Yup !!! Shooting D6, gripped with the big battery D850 and D500 as my main arsenal as you said made the Z9 very enticing hence pre order on Z9 and sale of D6 and D500 waiting with balanced anticipation to move the 600 f/4E from the gripped D850 to the ftz adapter on a Z9.

 

[Nimi]

The Z9 was designed for people like me. Pros who've been in the ecosystem for decades, would only use cameras with integral grip and hardened bodies and long-lasting batteries. I view it as an evolutionary step from the D5/6, irrespective of that Canon and Sony are doing. It gives me/us better AF, more MPs, and access to superior optics. That's all we ever asked for. YMMV.

 

[Ken Miracle]

The Z9 was designed for people like me. Pros who've been in the ecosystem for decades, would only use cameras with integral grip and hardened bodies and long-lasting batteries. I view it as an evolutionary step from the D5/6, irrespective of that Canon and Sony are doing. It gives me/us better AF, more MPs, and access to superior optics. That's all we even asked for. YMMV.

And thank you for being that target market that a nutty bird photographer gets to tag along with Input from you guys to Nikon had to help a bunch with the development.

 

[O]

I agree with most of what you say regarding complexity, cost, etc. But the above statement is a common misconception. For zoom lenses that change length(and therefore internal volume) when zoomed it is true that air must be displaced/replaced as they zoom. For for internal zoom lenses there is no air exchange. That's one of the advantages of the internal zoom is better weather sealing. In order for them to "pump" air there would have to be some method of seal between the moving element and lens barrel to act like piston rings. If you look at the images in the referenced article you can clearly see the (twisted)grooves in the barrel that provide an open path for air to move from one side to the other of the moving lens group. So there is internal air movement rather than air displacement/replacement that is necessary if the length/volume of the barrel changes when zooming.

Thank you ...........Yes I agree with what you saying, however i have seen several zoom lenses with dust inside before, one 200-400 VR........and the other a 120-300........about 18 months ago at a motor cross meet.

My local camera technician has expressed similar views as you have expressed, despite that he has seen a little dust at times with some high end zoom's not huge numbers of course.........even in some primes why and how that occurs i never bothered to ask at the time. I have only heard it can be through switches etc i cant qualify that of course......but some how it seems it can still get in ever so slightly over time ? you can see the used market somtimes the adds say there is a little dust................ even in primes..........

Thank you for you welcomed comments...........but still $10k on principal is off isn't it, I think their riding on the coat tails of the 200-400 pricing also $10k........

 

[Nimi]

And thank you for being that target market that a nutty bird photographer gets to tag along with Input from you guys to Nikon had to help a bunch with the development.

Now I'm trying to learn to shoot birds. Those little f#%@$ are fast!

 

[O]

Theoretically I could see dust getting inside during a lens swap being sucked up to the front element after a few quick throws. Or even a small amount of back pressure pulling dust through the mount. That's a troubling thought. But, I owned the original Tamron 150-600, it's amazing how much dirt can be stuck inside before you break down and tear it apart.....lol

As Northern Focus correctly said internal moving zoom lenses are usually free of pumping or sucking dust issues, the 200-500, 28-300, the Tamron Sigma 150-600 style of lenses are defiantly vulnerable to sucking in dust............, I always use a Aqua tech cover as i do a lot of surfing work for mags and web sites.....bloggers etc, that said with the 28-300 i always run my fingers or cloth over the extended barrel portion to remove any potential dust attracted even by static electricity, when you wind the lens back in it dose at times accumulated beyond the seal, when you pull the lens apart you can see dust on the other side of the seal.
Yes they can based on application become an issue i think the 100-400 earlier versions was given the name PUMP lens. LOL

 

[Ken Miracle]

Thank you ...........Yes I agree with what you saying, however i have seen several zoom lenses with dust inside before, one 200-400 VR........and the other a 120-300........about 18 months ago at a motor cross meet.

My local camera technician has expressed similar views as you have expressed, despite that he has seen a little dust at times with some high end zoom's not huge numbers of course.........even in some primes why and how that occurs i never bothered to ask at the time. I have only heard it can be through switches etc i cant qualify that of course......but some how it seems it can still get in ever so slightly over time ? you can see the used market somtimes the adds say there is a little dust................ even in primes..........

Thank you for you welcomed comments...........but still $10k on principal is off isn't it, I think their riding on the coat tails of the 200-400 pricing also $10k........

Our local SPT certified tech is probably still the only one in Idaho he says that for the most part the dust in the lens will not have an impact on the image the lens produces he would be more worried about mold etc. in a humid climate for that impact. He said the biggest thing with minimal dust in lens is having it migrate to the camera sensor during operation. He said that variable focal length lenses of all types move air inside the lens one way or the other and the same even for primes as they focus and the aperture moves hence why even a well sealed prime can get dust it is just not much or as frequent as an older telescoping lens. He said that the old Tamron 150-600 was a great dust pump and while the new G2 is greatly improved in that and many ways it still gets dust in. As he says it is just physics He blows out my lens for free anytime I want to take it by Hope he never retires.

 

[O]

120-300 2.8 Nikon $10,000 pull down verses the Sigma 120-300 2.8 $3500 pull down.

excluding the optical quality difference............in favor of Nikon...........

Nikon 25 elements 19 groups
Sigma 23 elements 18 groups


Only looking at the complexity of both lenses being pulled down they seem very complicated and full of so many parts............
There is no question that the Nikon is later technology.............but nearly 3 times the price that's a sting.........

If you don't shoot these lenses at F2.8 your really are wasting your money and time.........the only other benefit is versatility and light gathering performance but that's the same in both lenses......

So the difference is some optical quality - performance...........but above all MARGIN.

Now the excuse from page 3456 of Madeline Kay's stock answers says "oh but they are hand made and in such small runs"
Ok when your order a 120-300 2.8 and its not available they usually back order it till they make up a economical batch run.

People who love this lens are usually indoor sports action basket ball or tennis photographers, and yes it is well built and performs but Nikon could sell thousands more at $4500/$5500

 

[O]

Our local SPT certified tech is probably still the only one in Idaho he says that for the most part the dust in the lens will not have an impact on the image the lens produces he would be more worried about mold etc. in a humid climate for that impact. He said the biggest thing with minimal dust in lens is having it migrate to the camera sensor during operation. He said that variable focal length lenses of all types move air inside the lens one way or the other and the same even for primes as they focus and the aperture moves hence why even a well sealed prime can get dust it is just not much or as frequent as an older telescoping lens. He said that the old Tamron 150-600 was a great dust pump and while the new G2 is greatly improved in that and many ways it still gets dust in. As he says it is just physics He blows out my lens for free anytime I want to take it by Hope he never retires.

Exactly its Physics and my point............even teh 200 F macro gets in dust given long enough, i found its also to do with static that attracts super fine particals of dust that accumulate of long periods..

 

[O]

Our local SPT certified tech is probably still the only one in Idaho he says that for the most part the dust in the lens will not have an impact on the image the lens produces he would be more worried about mold etc. in a humid climate for that impact. He said the biggest thing with minimal dust in lens is having it migrate to the camera sensor during operation. He said that variable focal length lenses of all types move air inside the lens one way or the other and the same even for primes as they focus and the aperture moves hence why even a well sealed prime can get dust it is just not much or as frequent as an older telescoping lens. He said that the old Tamron 150-600 was a great dust pump and while the new G2 is greatly improved in that and many ways it still gets dust in. As he says it is just physics He blows out my lens for free anytime I want to take it by Hope he never retires.

A question, my friend asked me.............i have yet to answer

He wants to buy a Z9 but or a 600 F4 FL, he then feels it will make him have to save to long to get a 600 F4 FL, should he get a 600 f4 FL instead of a Z9 and keep using his D850 he loves which has a grip and he has no complaints with it what so ever for what he dose..............he dose some wild life and some sports action..........

He said he cant afford both............

 

[Ken Miracle]

A question, my friend asked me.............i have yet to answer

He wants to buy a Z9 but or a 600 F4 FL, he then feels it will make him have to save to long to get a 600 F4 FL, should he get a 600 f4 FL instead of a Z9 and keep using his D850 he loves which has a grip and he has no complaints with it what so ever for what he dose..............he dose some wild life and some sports action..........

He said he cant afford both............

As you know the D850 with the grip and the big battery has a frame rate right at D500 levels, very good dynamic range, paired with my Nikkor AF-S 600mm F/4E FL ED VR it is a very good birding set up. It is not as fast to focus as the same lens on the D6. I used it on a 6.6 mile birding hike along the Boise River 12-9-21. Here are some just for fun and e bird report shots from that day. I forgot to mention it was a really crummy light day wind and fast moving clouds.

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[O]

As you know the D850 with the grip and the big battery has a frame rate right at D500 levels, very good dynamic range, paired with my Nikkor AF-S 600mm F/4E FL ED VR it is a very good birding set up. It is not as fast to focus as the same lens on the D6. I used it on a 6.6 mile birding hike along the Boise River 12-9-21. Here are some just for fun and e bird report shots from that day. I forgot to mention it was a really crummy light day wind and fast moving clouds.View attachment 28702View attachment 28703View attachment 28704

Very nice imges so you would give all this up for a z9 over getting a 600 f4 fl

 

[Ken Miracle]

Very nice imges so you would give all this up for a z9 over getting a 600 f4 fl

Luckily I already have the 600 but I did give up a D6 and a D500 for the Z9 .... but as noted I kept the D850. If I had to make the choice I would probably get the lens before the Z9 and save up for that later.

 

[O]

Luckily I already have the 600 but I did give up a D6 and a D500 for the Z9 .... but as noted I kept the D850. If I had to make the choice I would probably get the lens before the Z9 and save up for that later.

Thank you i will pass it on.........

 

[Nature Man]

Hi Hut2. Why does it have to solve a problem? Because after 30 years in business my studio has grown full of many "tools" that were bought for "bells and whistles" only to now take up space. For my paid jobs I only shoot manual and for wildlife I use Auto ISO. I learned a number of years ago to put most of my business money into lighting. Cameras are just black boxes that click. Having said that, the reason I kept updating bodies has been for autofocus improvements. The D800's autofocus in low light was disappointing, the 810 was better and the D850 has solved most of the focus problems. Now having said that, I'm shooting more and more of my commercial work in a more energetic, editorial approach...the Z9's eye autofocus may be a welcome "whistle/bell"?

Well said. I would put forth pros use what they have and only upgrade when either 1.) their cameras fail or 2.) the latest and greatest has some feature which will make them more money or some feature which aides in shooting i.e. faster autofocus, eye auto focus, etc. which in turn leads to more keepers which in turn leads to more money. Hooch makes a very good point about having many impulse bought "tools" just laying around taking up space. I imagine the combined price of his useless stuff, bought on a whim, could finance or partially finance a superior piece of glass. His learned from experience witness is one we could all well take to heart. Of course, the manufacturers would not like us to be practical minded...........no money in that! JMO.

 

[FB101]

A question, my friend asked me.............i have yet to answer

He wants to buy a Z9 but or a 600 F4 FL, he then feels it will make him have to save to long to get a 600 F4 FL, should he get a 600 f4 FL instead of a Z9 and keep using his D850 he loves which has a grip and he has no complaints with it what so ever for what he dose..............he dose some wild life and some sports action..........

He said he cant afford both............

I think it depends a little on what he shoots, what lenses he already has and what's his biggest sources of disappointment currently.

If he only shoots stills of small birds with a 500pf and can't get close enough... the 600 f:4 with a 1.4TC would seem a priority.
If he shoots big birds in flight (osprey fishing, eagle fishing etc), big cats hunting in Africa and he does a ton of video... the Z9 might be the better upgrade path

All that said, things aren't usually that black and white, so I typically I would say "lead with glass" but the type of weight improvement and AF speed we have seen in Sony and Canon latest generation "big guns" is something that can't be ignored either and I would expect Nikon to match that when those lenses come out in Z mount. In which case, getting the Z mount camera first that can take advantage of those new lenses does make sense, and catch up on the 600mm in a few years when the new 600 is "broadly" available.

 

[FB101]

Hooch makes a very good point about having many impulse bought "tools" just laying around taking up space. I imagine the combined price of his useless stuff, bought on a whim, could finance or partially finance a superior piece of glass. His learned from experience witness is one we could all well take to heart. Of course, the manufacturers would not like us to be practical minded...........no money in that! JMO.

Have you been looking into my photography closet? Seems like you are describing the pile of gear I am sitting on I love the quality I get from the Nikon 85mm f:1.8 - all 10 pictures I have ever taken with it over the last 5 years

 

[Anjin San]

2 for me

If I was willing to carry a body with built in grip…mine would be on order as well…but I’ve never used or wanted a grip and shoot few to no portrait mode shots. I’m waiting on the body that’s not gripped and has as many of the Z9 features as it can have…but haven’t decided whether the Z7III will get the hardware improvements needed for that or if it will be a Z8 or even something else.

 

[Ken Miracle]

If I was willing to carry a body with built in grip…mine would be on order as well…but I’ve never used or wanted a grip and shoot few to no portrait mode shots. I’m waiting on the body that’s not gripped and has as many of the Z9 features as it can have…but haven’t decided whether the Z7III will get the hardware improvements needed for that or if it will be a Z8 or even something else.

Yup if a camera does not fit our shooting needs/wants then why get it. All my cameras since the D4s have had integral or added grips but they fit a specific want for me. I seldom use the grip controls since I shoot more horizontal than vertical and when I want to shoot horizontal I just turn the camera and shoot away since I usually need to do it fast before the bird leaves.For me the grip is not the ability to shoot in portrait mode it is all about the big EN EL 18 series batteries for shooting many shots and scoping out a lot of birds for ID. In the case of the D850 a faster frame rate. I know for you weight and size is more desirable so hope Nikon brings out what works for you. From what I read the Z9 depending on how you use it and your settings will be power hungry.

 

[John Woodworth]

...For me the grip is not the ability to shoot in portrait mode it is all about the big EN EL 18 series batteries for shooting many shots and scoping out a lot of birds for ID...

Ricci's recent video on Z9 battery life gives me hopes that a smaller Z9, 850-like, version is possible. Call it a Z950.

He observes that the Z9 lasts all day and easily takes >15k images with ample reserves (>20%) left in the EN EL 18c battery (2500 mAh, 10.8 V).

So maybe a Z7 sized form factor, with slightly lesser spec's, is more easily possible than previously speculated here on this site. With the EN EL 15c being 2280 mAh and 7 V, probably the speed of focusing lenses would be reduced. If video is the main power consumer and heat source, maybe ease off on the 8k video a bit (put on time restrictions or limit it to 6k).

As has been pointed out before, firing an electronic shutter consumes less energy that a mechanical one, so maybe for stills there would be little compromise for a Z950. Just not flagship focusing speed.

For those that got frustrated with the lower performance, offer a grip with a larger battery.

Problem solved!