Nikon Z9/8 Hybrid Handover Question

[JoelKlein]

I want to confirm this. (in Ver. 3.10)
BBF will ONLY override/hand over from the shutter button.

When pressing any FN buttons set to a different AF Area mode or AF Area mode + AF ON, Pressing BBF or half-press shutter will NOT override the FN button.

In other words, the way to hand it over is a one-way street. Shutter first, then hand over to BBF or FN's.
If the BBF or FN's are pressed, The camera won't hand it over.

 

[Fishboy1952]

I don’t think that’s true Joel. I use BBAF and with the AF typically setup for Wide large or small with subject detection depending on the shot. I generally shoot BIF. The shutter button has no AF function. It is release only. I’ll get an object in the AF box with a lock, and then press the FN1 button which shifts, or hands AF over, to 3D. I do this as depending on the subject, as I may not be able to keep it in the wide small or large box. Once 3D has it, I find that it keeps the lock very well.

I’m not positive this is what you are referring to, as I think “hand off” means different things to different people. But this is how I use it and it works well for me.

 

[Butlerkid]

I agree with. Fishboy.

I have my camera set so the shutter never focuses. I achieve focus with Fn1 wide small and once I have focus I hand over to 3D which is on the AF ON button.

 

[JoelKlein]

I haven’t tried with shutter for release only. Will check it out.
Using the shutter for release only is a love-hate idea

 

[Anjin San]

I want to confirm this. (in Ver. 3.10)
BBF will ONLY override/hand over from the shutter button.

When pressing any FN buttons set to a different AF Area mode or AF Area mode + AF ON, Pressing BBF or half-press shutter will NOT override the FN button.

In other words, the way to hand it over is a one-way street. Shutter first, then hand over to BBF or FN's.
If the BBF or FN's are pressed, The camera won't hand it over.

Haven’t experimented but I think that’s incorrect…as long as you have focus point persistence turned on it should hand off. Now whether for instance wide large on rear hands off to eD on Fn1 and whether Fn1 is also AF On or needs the rear button released I dunno. Steve has 3D on Fn but not AF On so he holds it down to switch and keeps using red to engage…I’ve got it set tha5 way for now but due to finger reach I need to experiment and see if I want to add AF On to Fn as well.

 

[Anjin San]

I don’t think that’s true Joel. I use BBAF and with the AF typically setup for Wide large or small with subject detection depending on the shot. I generally shoot BIF. The shutter button has no AF function. It is release only. I’ll get an object in the AF box with a lock, and then press the FN1 button which shifts, or hands AF over, to 3D. I do this as depending on the subject, as I may not be able to keep it in the wide small or large box. Once 3D has it, I find that it keeps the lock very well.

I’m not positive this is what you are referring to, as I think “hand off” means different things to different people. But this is how I use it and it works well for me.

Are you using AF On on Fn as well or keeping the AF On button pressed at the same time?

 

[Viseguy]

I haven’t tried with shutter for release only. Will check it out.
Using the shutter for release only is a love-hate idea

Check out another thread on this site: Getting Used to Z8 . Look at Andy Miller's posts. I like generally what he is doing, in that he is using shutter release for initial focus, and then handing off via FN1 or FN2 or BBAF. I did load his BIN file just to play around with it, and I'll definitely make changes to suite me, but overall I like using the shutter button for initial acquisition better than just using it for shutter only. This coming from someone who has used only back button focus for last 6 years or more. My Z8 setup is still not finished, still experimenting........

 

[Fishboy1952]

Are you using AF On on Fn as well or keeping the AF On button pressed at the same time?

I have done both. My current mode is to have the Fn1 button just switch to 3D. So I’m depressing both AF On and the Fn1 button to engage the camera in 3D AF. I know some have an allergic reaction to this, but it works for me.

 

[bleirer]

We should put the camera name in the title or at least in the first post. I assume Nikon something?

 

[JoelKlein]

We should put the camera name in the title or at least in the first post. I assume Nikon something?

Thank you. Updated

 

[Butlerkid]

I have done both. My current mode is to have the Fn1 button just switch to 3D. So I’m depressing both AF On and the Fn1 button to engage the camera in 3D AF. I know some have an allergic reaction to this, but it works for me.

For years I held both the AF ON button and the Fn1 button. I'm now trying with the Fn1 button set to AF ON+ AF AREA MODE

 

[Fishboy1952]

For years I held both the AF ON button and the Fn1 button. I'm now trying with the Fn1 button set to AF ON+ AF AREA MODE

I’ve done that, and it works but I’m partial to having Fn1 just change the mode. There are a few times I have found that I want to stop or suspend the AF, but I want to stay in that AF mode, in this case 3D. Pressing 2 buttons hasn’t been an issue so far, so as long as I can coordinate the buttons, I’ll stick with it.

 

[Geoff_G]

My primary AF is half shutter (usually C1 or C2), Fn1 is set to auto area AF ( if needed) and AF-On is set to 3D + AF On (actually still evaluating with it on). I also have Fn2 set to single point.

 

[JoelKlein]

I’m still confused what has priority over other buttons.

 

[Butlerkid]

I’m still confused what has priority over other buttons.

When you press one button, you release the one you WERE using.. Or if you prefer to keep focusing on the AF ON button, you keep that pressed and simply press the (for example) Fn1 BUTTON to choose a different AF AREA MODE

Do you have Steve's ebook? He goes over this in detail.

 

[Geoff_G]

In my case Fn1 (or Fn2) overrides the 1/2 shutter while I have it pressed. It reverts to the half shutter mode when released. Af-On engages 3d which overrides my half shutter mode (C1 or c1) while it is pressed. Set up some buttons and play with it...or better yet Steve's guide explains this and the AF modes quite well.

 

[SoCalRick]

It's like @Butlerkid said above. I don't think of it as a priority condition between different buttons, but rather a transfer of focus mechanism from one to another.

If you are using subject detection, and have Focus Point Persistence enabled, then once you have the subject acquired in your current AF area mode (e.g. Wide Large), then you can perform a "handoff" to another AF mode (e.g. 3D) by pushing whichever button you have mapped to enable your new AF mode of choice, and the subject detection will be "picked up by" / "handed off to" the new AF mode that you switched over to.

The shutter button just takes the photo (even if you have something mapped to half-shutter press)

 

[NorthernFocus]

I’m still confused what has priority over other buttons.

You can test it in 5 minutes.
- AF-ON overrides shutter button focus
- Fn1, 2, or 3 override either shutter focus or AF-ON
- Disp button and joystick center press basically behave like the Fn buttons. They will override shutter or AF-ON but won't be overriden by any other buttons.
- Fn buttons, Disp, etc don't appear to have any priority order. Whichever one is pressed first holds focus regardless of pressing another Fn and regardless of focus area/mode

So basically Fn buttons, Disp, and joystick center are highest priority followed by AF-ON and shutter button at the bottom of the priority heap.

Haven't tested any other buttons other than those mentioned above.

 

[fcotterill]

Thanks for checking. I tested my D850 and D6, and they work in the same overall way. So although Nikon has a history of changing (aka undoing) some solid features that work well, and have worked that way for years, I find it reassuring how the Autofocus custom settings in a Z9 and Z8 maintain close similarities.

For the record some context may be relevant here, as questions about HandOver settings are a recurring topic about the Z9 and latterly Z8.... It used be that we were restricted to AF a ILC with shutter activation only, or using the AFOn button on some models. Today, some ILCs still allow using only the shutter button for focus and release.

As I recall it was the D5 and D500 that changed this.... so today, the active focus of these Modern ILCs can be activated by any one of 2, 3 or more Function buttons; this is if the button(s) is set to AFmode+AFOn. It's up to you how to setup and drive the camera, and play any "AF Tune" on the buttons

[edited]

You can test it in 5 minutes.
- AF-ON overrides shutter button focus
- Fn1, 2, or 3 override either shutter focus or AF-ON
- Disp button and joystick center press basically behave like the Fn buttons. They will override shutter or AF-ON but won't be overriden by any other buttons.
- Fn buttons, Disp, etc don't appear to have any priority order. Whichever one is pressed first holds focus regardless of pressing another Fn and regardless of focus area/mode

So basically Fn buttons, Disp, and joystick center are highest priority followed by AF-ON and shutter button at the bottom of the priority heap.

Haven't tested any other buttons other than those mentioned above.

 

[fcotterill]

Basically, Focus Persistence is the underlying reason we have extra control with the Hand Off AF (aka HandOver or Hybrid Focus) technique in the Z8 and Z9 over the active AF focus point. Leveraging Focus Persistence keeps the precision over the AF point when 'toggling' between AF modes...and almost instantly..... Long way of saying the focus point stays on the subject despite switching AFmodes, and switching AFmodes is to handle shooting challenges.

I see this as straightforward, in that the improved precision in the Z9 and Z8 is largely thanks to Focus Persistence (that Nikon first released in the D6). Turning On Focus Persistence improves results when switching 'inwards' or 'outwards' between 2 AF modes....between a user-controlled to/from camera-controlled AF point. Under the hood, tise feature works by enabling inheritance - in a split-second - of the AF point position despite switching between AFmodes.

So one can either first focus using the widest expanse of the AF cursor space to a focal subject, and then Handover to a tighter AFMode....

Or as many of us use the Z9 and Z8, we lock focus first on the subject with a tightly delimited mode (eg Dynamic or Custom Group Area) and then HandOver to 3D Tracking or Auto to track the moving subject. In summary, as it's matured in the D6 and Z Pro MILCs all this discussion about HandOver etc distills down to leveraging Focus Persistence, which allows switching AF modes without losing focus on the subject. This is where I disagree somewhat with Thom Hogan in his Z9 guide (v3.01, pg 852) that focus persistence "...only applies when moving from a camera-controlled focus placement mode (Auto-area AF or Wide-area AF) to a user-controlled focus placement mode...". IME Steve has it right in his Z8/Z9 guide (pg 200) where describes Handover from Wide Area to 3D (pg 200) and conversely 3D to single-point (pg 274). As he notes you must Focus Point Persistence enabled for this to work.

 

[Fishboy1952]

I haven’t tried with shutter for release only. Will check it out.
Using the shutter for release only is a love-hate idea

Love-hate? That may be true. But I’ve been using BBAF with the shutter as release only since @Steve turned me on to it 5 years ago with my DSLRs. And since I use my D850 as my backup body, I wanted to keep some things as similar as possible on my Z9. And I’m just comfortable with it.

I was helping my neighbor with their D5100 2 weeks ago and they have it set up for AF on the shutter button. It seemed odd to me, but it all comes down to what you are comfortable with and what works for you. Good luck.

 

[Geoff_G]

Love-hate? That may be true. But I’ve been using BBAF with the shutter as release only since @Steve turned me on to it 5 years ago with my DSLRs. And since I use my D850 as my backup body, I wanted to keep some things as similar as possible on my Z9. And I’m just comfortable with it.

I was helping my neighbor with their D5100 2 weeks ago and they have it set up for AF on the shutter button. It seemed odd to me, but it all comes down to what you are comfortable with and what works for you. Good luck.

I tried and could not get used to using BBAF. I've used the shutter since forever and it feels natural. I use the AF-On button for 3D + AF On so when I hand off to 3D I can release the shutter button...that's about the closest I can come to not having a finger on the shutter button until T-0.

Like you said, whatever works...

 

[fcotterill]

An important caveat to above as to how Focus Persistence works (or does not work) with Focus Hybrid/Handover. Stand to be corrected, but I don't recall reading these key finer details spelled out in any documentation (although perhaps it's implicit in the Z9 Sports AF Guide. All along, I've taken how it operates for granted, until I experimented on the Z9 and D6 earlier today....and succeeded in breaking Focus Persistence.

(1) It is critical to have the 3D (or AutoAF) mode set on the AFOn button (BBAF) for handover AF to inherit the AF position when Focus is passed from the camera "inwards" to a tighter focus mode, such as a Group or Dynamic. (this should also apply to setting AF to the release button but haven't tested this).
(2) As importantly, you must keep 3D (or Auto) active - depressing BBAF - while simultaneously pressing the custom AFmode on the Function button for the AF cursor position to be inherited. The Basic rule is don't ever release focus control, otherwise the AF cursor just stays where it was last set (in group, or dynamic).

This constraint applies to Custom settings using AFMode+AFOn or AFMode (obviously in the latter case, you keep BBAF active all the time). Note: Setting the AF selector on a F-mount telephoto to AF-ON will also enable using AutoAF or 3D set on Lens-Fn to handover to a tighter AFmode activated on the camera. The corollary is, ironically, the above constraint does not interfere when handing over to a wider AF mode outwards from a tight AFmode to 3D or AUTOAF. [EDIT: The Inwards-Outwards analogy is better termed Tighter > Wider]

 

[NorthernFocus]

An important caveat to above as to how Focus Persistence works (or does not work) with Focus Hybrid/Handover. I don't recall reading this point spelled out in the documentation. All along, I've taken the operation for granted until I experimented on the Z9 and D6 earlier today....and succeeded in breaking Focus Persistence.

(1) It is critical to have the 3D (or AutoAF) mode set on the AFOn button (BBAF) for handover AF to inherit the AF position when Focus is passed from the camera "inwards" to a tighter focus mode, such as a Group or Dynamic.
(2) As importantly, you must keep 3D (or Auto) active while simultaneously pressing the custom AFmode on the Function button for the AF cursor position to be inherited. The Basic rule is don't ever release focus control, otherwise the AF cursor just stays where it was last set (in group, or dynamic).

This constraint applies to Custom settings using AFMode+AFOn or AFMode (obviously in the latter case, you keep BBAF active all the time). Note: Setting the AF selector on a F-mount telephoto to AF-ON will also enable using AutoAF or 3D set on Lens-Fn to handover to a tighter AFmode activated on the camera. The corollary is, ironically, the above constraint does not interfere when handing over AF outwards from a tight AFmode to 3D or AUTOAF

I don't understand your point here. From what you describe what you are calling moving "inward" behaves the same as moving "outward". In all cases Fn buttons override AF-ON(regardless of which mode is on which button). And in all cases for focus persistence to work there has to be a "seamless" transfer. IOW you have to keep focus engaged with whatever mode your handing off FROM while you engage whichever mode you want to had off TO.

 

[Geoff_G]

An important caveat to above as to how Focus Persistence works (or does not work) with Focus Hybrid/Handover. Stand to be corrected, but I don't recall reading these key finer details spelled out in any documentation (although perhaps it's implicit in the Z9 Sports AF Guide. All along, I've taken how it operates for granted, until I experimented on the Z9 and D6 earlier today....and succeeded in breaking Focus Persistence.

(1) It is critical to have the 3D (or AutoAF) mode set on the AFOn button (BBAF) for handover AF to inherit the AF position when Focus is passed from the camera "inwards" to a tighter focus mode, such as a Group or Dynamic. (this should also apply to setting AF to the release button but haven't tested this).
(2) As importantly, you must keep 3D (or Auto) active - depressing BBAF - while simultaneously pressing the custom AFmode on the Function button for the AF cursor position to be inherited. The Basic rule is don't ever release focus control, otherwise the AF cursor just stays where it was last set (in group, or dynamic).

This constraint applies to Custom settings using AFMode+AFOn or AFMode (obviously in the latter case, you keep BBAF active all the time). Note: Setting the AF selector on a F-mount telephoto to AF-ON will also enable using AutoAF or 3D set on Lens-Fn to handover to a tighter AFmode activated on the camera. The corollary is, ironically, the above constraint does not interfere when handing over AF outwards from a tight AFmode to 3D or AUTOAF

I'm not following. In my setup I use the shutter button for my main focus mode (usually set to C1 or C2) and when I handoff to AF-On (set to 3D Tracking + AF On) I can release the shutter button and 3D is still doing it's thing. When I press to expose it was using 3D focussing and not what I have set on the Shutter button.