sid_19911991
Well-known member
Hmmm...nice review. Seems like Z9 is probably 30% behind Canon & 20% behind A1 in stills AF. (a speculative guess) That's good news as it is pretty close to the best. A firmware update will get it on par.
Official Nikon Z9 Launch, Info, and Discussion Thread
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Hmmm...nice review. Seems like Z9 is probably 30% behind Canon & 20% behind A1 in stills AF. (a speculative guess) That's good news as it is pretty close to the best. A firmware update will get it on par.
John Navitsky
Well-known member
i was under the impression there is still a "blocked shot" tunable? (or whatever it's called). i think it's hard to make sense of that comment without knowing all the focus modes and settings used.
I see that Jared said he had that maxed out to 5 but I do not know what AF tracking modes etc. he was using and he does not say.
John Navitsky
Well-known member
ah, i missed that
Yup. He also said he will post the video from the recorder so people can see what he saw.
Darwin
Well-known member
Looking at the silhouette, the 600 would not have built in TC.
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sid_19911991
Well-known member
We can always nitpick problems with any test done by anybody. Too many variables. But the AI is supposed to understand that it has to stick with the eyes & not get distracted by a ball irrespective of the sticky setting.
That's the whole point of using of using advanced AI mirrorless AF isn't it?
Uh, why? If I tell the camera "don't stick on a subject if obscured", would should it stick on the subject? The camera cannot know you wanted it to stick on the eyes if you set it differently.
You also want the camera to shoot in AF-C even if you set it on AF-S, just because your subject has moved?
John Navitsky
Well-known member
Fair enough.
Just curious where this is from? I have not seen it on the Nikon USA page but I could have not looked in the correct place.
John Navitsky
Well-known member
Not trying to keep this line of discussion alive, but I think what we're getting at is it's not clear if the modes/settings used were optimal for the desired behavior.
But sure, let's assume they are.
It's interesting we're getting to the point where we're arguing who can better get pin-sharp results of recently obscured, moving objects at f1.2.
But sure, let's assume they are.
It's interesting we're getting to the point where we're arguing who can better get pin-sharp results of recently obscured, moving objects at f1.2.
If you read the post I was replying to, I was commenting on the "irrespective of the sticky setting". That's the only aspect which I replied on, not to Fro's setting. It's too early to know what settings are needed, whether Fro had all of them, etc. But it's not too early to set right expectations - if you set camera to "forget subject", and it does that, then it's WAI in my oppinion.
thelordofthelight
Well-known member
I use focus tracking with lock on settings so frequently. One of the nicest customization options offered by the Z9 is you can set the lock on setting to standard or slow (1-3) for normal shooting and then use a custom button like pv or fn with a sticky setting (4-5) for an instant over ride.
thelordofthelight
Well-known member
In his Instagram feed, he showed the shots using 50 1.2 and also a live feed of how the AF box behaved and he said it performed very well and only in a specific instance did it grab a different subject (ball, despite using a sticky AF setting of 5- this is a valid observation as it shouldn't work that way). He is testing the Z9 with the 600 F4E and 100-400S today so looking forward to those test results.
John Navitsky
Well-known member
i’m guessing in that case it may have thought the ball was part of the subject. i’ve had this happen with the a1 as well, when it looses the eyes (and that happens a lot with dogs playing sports) it appears to track it as a “object” an nearby items, like a frisbee or ball can be mistakenly considered part of that object, then it can re-acquire the eyes and get back on track.
thelordofthelight
Well-known member
No matter how advanced the AI algorithms get, it still has to work in tandem with the other user defined settings.
AF tracking with lock on is basically a setting that directs the AF to act in a specific manner. When you are tracking a subject and there's an obstruction all of a sudden, how do you want the camera to AF in such a situation? Should it ignore the obstruction and stick with the primary subject you are tracking ( select a setting of 4-5) or do you want the camera to ignore your primary target and i stead focus on the obstruction (setting between 1-3). Latter setting is generally what causes the AF box to be too sensitive/ jumpy as it is adjusting for every minor change.
Like I mentioned in the other post, with the Z9 it is possible to move between a sensitivity setting of 1 to 5 with a press of a button so this is an amazing customization option for wildlife/sports use case.
AF tracking with lock on is basically a setting that directs the AF to act in a specific manner. When you are tracking a subject and there's an obstruction all of a sudden, how do you want the camera to AF in such a situation? Should it ignore the obstruction and stick with the primary subject you are tracking ( select a setting of 4-5) or do you want the camera to ignore your primary target and i stead focus on the obstruction (setting between 1-3). Latter setting is generally what causes the AF box to be too sensitive/ jumpy as it is adjusting for every minor change.
Like I mentioned in the other post, with the Z9 it is possible to move between a sensitivity setting of 1 to 5 with a press of a button so this is an amazing customization option for wildlife/sports use case.
now I know why I have not seen any of that I do not do instagram
twitter or just about anything phone based.
I meant on anything I have seen from Polin today that I get e mail notifications about.
John Navitsky
Well-known member
Yes I think that is fine personally. That is why 120 per second is a big deal.
otherwise, what is it supposed to do, predict the next position of the eye? It’s not the same as catching something in the foreground if the face is blocked momentarily???
thats what I think of when I see “sticky”. It is staying locked on while the eye is visible without jumping to something else.
i think the answer here is for the algorithms to get better at identifying objects and knowing what is and is not part of that particular type of object. ie, know what a ball or frisbee looks like and what a human or dog looks like and track these different objects in the frame and understand when one object intersects another, not to get fooled and see the two items as one object.
as it is, it think these systems get to a point where, when things get messy, they downgrade their certainty of what kind of object is being tracked.
so to answer your question, what it should have done, optimally, is know that the object being tracked is a human (and how a human is shaped) and when their head is obscured, try to focus on the un-obscured portion. bonus points for focusing on a portion of the body that was in the same focal plain as the original focus point.
fwiw, there have been some assertions that the nikon system does know the difference between the body, head and eyes and prioritize depending on what is visible. but that doesn’t seem to be demonstrated in this example. maybe because it got confused by the ball
we’ve come a long way, but we also have a long ways to go
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John Navitsky
Well-known member
it may have appeared object 1 (human) disappeared, switched to object 2 (unidentified blob) then object two splits into two objects and so it acquires object 3 (human)
life as a camera is complex and confusing
I saw some of his images and short comments with the Z9 and 600 F4E ... he said not much action and no eagles close enough or doing anything exciting so a bust. Not much I could tell from what he posted about how the 600 f/4E and FTZ worked on the Z9 ... he said the situation at the dam was why he went to the zoo to shoot eagles ... LOL
I think it might be the lens. I have the 50 f1.2 and it sometimes just misses focus, in normal single point AF mode AF-S or even AF-C it may happen when there is little contrast etc, but a slight tweak of the AF ring or swap to pin point and all is good again. The DOF is ultra thin and Pin Point AF works better, but not in this situation as it needs EYE tracking. Fro maybe should have tried different lenses to check that out in this particular situation as it probably isn't a camera tracking issue. I think even he had a few misses in one of the videos he did a few months back when he did a "review" of the 50 f1.2 and blamed the camera. It's not a big deal, you just need to be aware that you need to be careful, that DOF can be paper thin.
arbitrage
Well-known member
Thanks for sharing that image. I hadn't seen the 600 outline on its own...only in the group shot. Even from the group shot I'd already come to the conclusion that it won't have 1.4TC because it was only a little bit longer than the 400 where as normally the 600 is a good bit longer than the 400. The 400 is longer because of the 1.4TC so the 600 didn't likely have one. This image you posted pretty much confirms this.
Darwin
Well-known member
Yes, all good points. I was dead set on getting the 600, but now I’m thinking of keeping my 500 E and going with the 800.
RoyC
Active member
When Nikon turned the 200-400 into the 180-400 W/TC it resulted in a reduction in length of a fraction of an inch. The rear most element of the 400 E is a good distance from the mount.