Thermal Optics for Wildlife Viewing

[nmerc_photos]

For those considering the AGM 15-384, note there is a v2 version so there are 2 different models. The V2 looks like an improvement on NETD (< 12k instead of <35k) and 18650 battery instead of built-in, perhaps other things.

There is also the Rix k3 which is similar and priced a little lower

This is awesome news, and might be what pushes me over the edge to buy one just for reviewing purposes.

I think my suggestions for the best thermals now would be

AGM TM10-256 - lowest budget
AGM TM15-384 v2 - mid range
Pulsar Helion XP28 - mid-high end
Pulsar Telos XL50 - high end

here's the updated 15-384 v2 link for anyone looking. it was kinda hard to find. I didn't see any press releases about it or anything

AGM TaipanV2 15-384 | AGM Global Vision

AGM TaipanV2 15-384 from the AGM Global Vision. ✔️Best Priced ✔️Excellent quality ✔️Fast shipping ✔️Easy Setup ✔️Order now!

www.agmglobalvision.com

vs the old one

AGM TAIPAN TM15-384 THERMAL IMAGING MONOCULAR- AGM Global Vision

AGM Taipan TM15-384 from the AGM Global Vision. ✔️Best Priced ✔️Excellent quality ✔️Fast shipping ✔️Easy Setup ✔️Order now!

www.agmglobalvision.com

 

[ABaumgardner]

For those considering the AGM 15-384, note there is a v2 version so there are 2 different models. The V2 looks like an improvement on NETD (< 12k instead of <35k) and 18650 battery instead of built-in, perhaps other things.

There is also the Rix k3 which is similar and priced a little lower

I saw there was a V2, but hadn't identified the difference yet so this is helpful. I see utilization of the 18650 batteries as a plus. There's a V2 for the AGM 10-256 that is also on the way that uses the same 18650 battery.

 

[MikeJ]

Nick, is the TM15-384 enough better than the TM10-256 to justify the double cost? I bought the TM10-256, and unless I'm doing something wrong, I'm less than impressed. Sure, I could pick out deer at ~100 yards, but I did the same as you did (driving SZB pointing out the window) and didn't find a single bird. Again, could be user error or not knowing what I'm doing. Or maybe I was just never in the right place at the right time!

 

[VinnyH]

I just got the TM10-256 and am learning it's limits. I think I'll like it for scanning trees but the narrow field of view (FOV) does take some time. My first test around my house worked nice seeing birds in the bushes 20-30 feet away. There are a bunch of optional settings so I'll experiment with how it presents things in different contrasts or brightness levels. It also has 4 or so views and, for me, the red highlights on a b&w background is my preferred.
I'll try and post some low res pics when I get a chance. My local walking spots have been too icey lately so less practice with the thermal so far.
Vinny

 

[nmerc_photos]

Nick, is the TM15-384 enough better than the TM10-256 to justify the double cost? I bought the TM10-256, and unless I'm doing something wrong, I'm less than impressed. Sure, I could pick out deer at ~100 yards, but I did the same as you did (driving SZB pointing out the window) and didn't find a single bird. Again, could be user error or not knowing what I'm doing. Or maybe I was just never in the right place at the right time!

Everything is relative. For me, the TM15-384 is easily worth the money over the TM10-256. But I have spent so much money on camera gear, that a ~$500 difference for double the resolution is an absolute no brainer. Generally speaking, the value proposition is sound and not within diminishing returns between the two. IE the 15-384 costs 2x what the 10-256 does, but offers roughly 2x the performance. 1:1 trade up. As for when you get into the more expensive gear, you're likely spending $500 for a 50% or 20% or even 5% increase in performance.

One thing you want to do as a new thermal user, is make sure you test on subjects that you know are there. You might feel underwhelmed because you can't find anything, but there might not be any subjects in your area.

I am always surprised how many miles we can drive in the bog and not see a single heat source. No owls, rabbits, squirrels, or even songbirds. But it's not a failure of the thermal, it's just that there literally aren't any subjects in that area.

I would suggest going to a local park, or your backyard, and comparing what you see with the thermal to what you see with your eyes, binoculars, or lens - and that will give you a much better first impression.

I think the TM10-256 (and all 256 monoculars) are right on the edge between useful and useless. I would only suggest them to extremely budget conscious individuals. If it was the only thing I could afford, I would probably still be able to get some value out of it, but a 384 or 640 monocular makes a world of difference.

As someone with ~$50K+ in camera gear, it's easy to justify $2K or even $5K on thermal technology if it will help me more reliably locate subjects and be able to spend more time with them. What's the point in having all that gear if you can't find anything to shoot with it?

If you're someone who only has $5K worth of camera gear - then yeah the difference in cost from 256 to 384 might not be as easy to justify.

I just got the TM10-256 and am learning it's limits. I think I'll like it for scanning trees but the narrow field of view (FOV) does take some time. My first test around my house worked nice seeing birds in the bushes 20-30 feet away. There are a bunch of optional settings so I'll experiment with how it presents things in different contrasts or brightness levels. It also has 4 or so views and, for me, the red highlights on a b&w background is my preferred.
I'll try and post some low res pics when I get a chance. My local walking spots have been too icey lately so less practice with the thermal so far.
Vinny

The TM10-256 actually has one of the WIDEST FOV around. Not narrow. Did you say what you intended to? I know FOV is confusing, even after using this stuff a lot.

Looking forward to seeing the pics you post with it Vinny!

 

[arbitrage]

To echo what Nick said above, in my limited experience with the AGM 10-256 so far it does seem like sometimes I can't find anything but every time I know there is a bird if I aim the monocular at it I can see it light up. I do notice I have to take a second or two pause every time I scan to a new position to let the image settle. If you scan fast it doesn't have time to register the heat differences. So far it hasn't allowed me to discover anything I hadn't already seen except for the heat coming from the 2024 season Kestrel nest cavity. But I'm hoping it will eventually net me some owls that I'm not seeing. We had a Saw-whet a few months ago that was roosting in a very limited area and it took me 20-30mins each morning to find it with my eyes. I assume if I had the monocular then I could have found it in a few seconds each morning.

 

[MikeJ]

Thanks Nick and Arbitrage! I might see about returning the TM10-256 in favor of the TM15-384. Which, unfortunately, is backordered on B&H.

 

[nmerc_photos]

These AGM Taipan V2s are looking really good on paper. I think the TM15-384 v2 for $1K USD is gonna be a steal. Pretty close to ideal specs for a wildlife photographer on a budget.

18650 rechargable lithium ion (no more proprietary batteries/chargers)
Chargeable by USB-C
Custom app (no need to stick your head out the window in -20F)
Sensor protection (turns off when pointed at the sun so you don't fry your thermal)
<20mK vs <35mK NETD on the prior model
1024 x 768 OLED screen

obviously I'd prefer 640x480 instead of 384x288 resolution, but that's the price of a budget unit. I think 384 is about the bare minimum I would want to use for a daily thermal.

Here's a good review, but using the TM19 model:

sadly, like most other brands - AGM's 640x512 models are all narrow FOV.. I was hoping they'd bring something new to the table at a higher price point

 

[VinnyH]

The TM10-256 actually has one of the WIDEST FOV around. Not narrow. Did you say what you intended to? I know FOV is confusing, even after using this stuff a lot.

Looking forward to seeing the pics you post with it Vinny!

I have looked through it at an array of trees and it seems, at 1X, to be narrow. It may be the distance factor since the treeline is maybe 60 ft away?
Still learning about it,
Vinny

 

[wildfowler]

I have a FLIR Breach monocular that is mounted on a helmet.


I looked up the specifics on that particular monocular and learned that it has a 24° horizontal field of view and a 19° vertical field of view.
It’s a 320mp resolution thermal core.

I always felt like its field of view “closely” matched my eye. Because on a bright moon lit night with my other eye open, it’s not disoriented to me and I almost am able to see a perfect fusion of the image with what I see if the bright lit landscape from my other eye.

I pulled it out the last night after this discussion came up and looked at the tree line 30 yards off of my front porch and immediately spotted one bird about 15 feet up off the ground. This was also after dark, so I wasn’t really in danger of spooking that bird.

The trees are probably typical for my area in the 70 to 90 foot tall range.


Standing at that same distance from the tree line, I was not able to see the entire height of the tree line from top to bottom. It took two efforts of me panning the scene to be sure I covered the entire vertical distance.

Then I looked to a different tree line that was about 200 yards away and I had no trouble seeing the entire width and height of that tree line with the monocular.

I didn’t see anything in that tree line. If a coon had been on the ground, I would’ve seen it, but I’m not sure I would’ve seen an owl with “that” thermal at that distance due to how well insulated they are.

I started thinking about what a photographer might be trying to do with this unit compared to how I use mine.

I’m not sure I know exactly how these would be best used by a photographer, but was thinking that if someone positioned themselves in the middle of a scope of woods and were expecting to find an owl to photograph without having to moving from their scanning position, I could see how having a narrow field of view would be a pretty big hindrance.

You would also be moving a lot, having to look in every direction around you up down 360°and since this is likely going to be daytime photography, you’re more likely to spook the bird away.


So not knowing exactly what your distance is that you expect to be able to spot something.

I would like to retract my original recommendation and say it depends on how far away you intend to be looking.

The farther away, the narrower the field of view for me personally. The narrower the field of view, the farther potential detection range is too.

None of this may be important if you self limit your scanning distance area to just a few yards in front of you at a time.

 

[arbitrage]

Question...
How does the Dispay resolution and Sensor resolution relate to each other? Or don't they?

I got the Topdon TS004 from Amazon to compare to the AGM TM10-256. First thing I noticed, and liked, with the TOPDON is the image you see is larger.
This was the one thing I didn't like with the AGM as the image is so small.
Now both of these have the same Sensor resolution of 256x192. So that seems to be its own thing related to how well it differentiates heat differences and not related to the size of the image you see in the VF. Correct??
The AGM claims a 720x540 display. I can't find the display size in the specs for the TOPDON. Does the Display size correlate to the magnification of the display you see in the VF? Or is that a different spec? My thought line is that you could magnify an image but have the same resolution in pixels and the more magnified one would just look more less sharp.
I haven't had time to go out and compare the two in the field to see the FOV differences. I can't find a FOV specification on the TOPDON other than it says it is a 13mm lens and I believe the AGM is a 10mm lens. But even a 13mm lens seems to be very wide when comparing against Nick's initial chart. The TOPDON feels better built overall and I like the magnified view. So if the FOV isn't too bad then I may go for it. Although now Amazon Canada has a Used Amazon Warehouse Deal AGM unit for $557 CAD which seems like a great deal so may just return both and buy that Warehouse one.

 

[nmerc_photos]

Question...
How does the Dispay resolution and Sensor resolution relate to each other? Or don't they?

I got the Topdon TS004 from Amazon to compare to the AGM TM10-256. First thing I noticed, and liked, with the TOPDON is the image you see is larger.
This was the one thing I didn't like with the AGM as the image is so small.
Now both of these have the same Sensor resolution of 256x192. So that seems to be its own thing related to how well it differentiates heat differences and not related to the size of the image you see in the VF. Correct??
The AGM claims a 720x540 display. I can't find the display size in the specs for the TOPDON. Does the Display size correlate to the magnification of the display you see in the VF? Or is that a different spec? My thought line is that you could magnify an image but have the same resolution in pixels and the more magnified one would just look more less sharp.
I haven't had time to go out and compare the two in the field to see the FOV differences. I can't find a FOV specification on the TOPDON other than it says it is a 13mm lens and I believe the AGM is a 10mm lens. But even a 13mm lens seems to be very wide when comparing against Nick's initial chart. The TOPDON feels better built overall and I like the magnified view. So if the FOV isn't too bad then I may go for it. Although now Amazon Canada has a Used Amazon Warehouse Deal AGM unit for $557 CAD which seems like a great deal so may just return both and buy that Warehouse one.

Topdon TS004 has a 640x480 LCOS display, the AGM TM10-256 has a 720x540 LCOS display.

Topdon TS004 has a 13.5x10.1 FOV, the AGM TM10-256 has a 18x13.55 FOV.

https://web-file.topdon.com/topdon-web/information_download/TS004-Product-Profile.pdf

AGM TAIPAN TM10-256 THERMAL IMAGING MONOCULAR- AGM Global Vision

AGM TAIPAN TM10-256 from the AGM Global Vision. ✔️Best Priced ✔️Excellent quality ✔️Fast shipping ✔️Easy Setup ✔️Order now!

www.agmglobalvision.com

As far as I know the sensor resolution and display resolution don't have any direct relation. There are 256 sensor monoculars that have 600x400, 640x480, and 720x540 displays.

In thermal imaging, "sensor resolution" refers to the number of pixels on the thermal imaging sensor itself, determining the raw detail captured by the camera, while "display resolution" refers to the number of pixels on the screen where the thermal image is displayed, which may be different from the sensor resolution and can affect how detailed the image appears to the user; essentially, the sensor captures the raw data, and the display presents that data with its own pixel count.

I'm not sure if what you're seeing is the difference in the display resolution, the FOV, or a combination of both.

I suspect FOV is the leading culprit. The Topdown has a much narrower FOV, so everything you see in it should be enlarged. On top of the narrow FOV, it also has less display resolution - so the pixels that are there should be bigger.. (I think?).

 

[arbitrage]

Topdon TS004 has a 640x480 LCOS display, the AGM TM10-256 has a 720x540 LCOS display.

Topdon TS004 has a 13.5x10.1 FOV, the AGM TM10-256 has a 18x13.55 FOV.

https://web-file.topdon.com/topdon-web/information_download/TS004-Product-Profile.pdf

AGM TAIPAN TM10-256 THERMAL IMAGING MONOCULAR- AGM Global Vision

AGM TAIPAN TM10-256 from the AGM Global Vision. ✔️Best Priced ✔️Excellent quality ✔️Fast shipping ✔️Easy Setup ✔️Order now!

www.agmglobalvision.com

As far as I know the sensor resolution and display resolution don't have any direct relation. There are 256 sensor monoculars that have 600x400, 640x480, and 720x540 displays.

In thermal imaging, "sensor resolution" refers to the number of pixels on the thermal imaging sensor itself, determining the raw detail captured by the camera, while "display resolution" refers to the number of pixels on the screen where the thermal image is displayed, which may be different from the sensor resolution and can affect how detailed the image appears to the user; essentially, the sensor captures the raw data, and the display presents that data with its own pixel count.

I'm not sure if what you're seeing is the difference in the display resolution, the FOV, or a combination of both.

I suspect FOV is the leading culprit. The Topdown has a much narrower FOV, so everything you see in it should be enlarged. On top of the narrow FOV, it also has less display resolution - so the pixels that are there should be bigger.. (I think?).

Thanks for that info.

When you look in the TOPDON you are looking at a much larger "screen" vs the AGM. I'd equate this to the measurement we have for EVFs and OVFs of magnification. Like the high end DSLRs like Canon 1DX series had an immersive OVF image presented to the viewer. Same thing looking through an A1 EVF. Crop sensor DLSRs and less expensive FF DSLRs had much smaller OVF images. The AGM reminds me of looking through a DX DSLR (or worse) where as the TOPDON is like a mid-tier FF OVF.

For example the 1DX OVF is a 0.76x where as the 5DIII is 0.71x. An A1 is an impressive 0.9x magnification. An A7IV has 0.78x magnification. A Z9 is 0.8x. I think this is what I'm seeing in the TOPDON vs the AGM and it isn't directly related to the display's resolution.

 

[Saint]

I met someone who showed up with a set of Pulsar “Merger” thermal binoculars.

Merger

Discover innovative hunting tech at Pulsar USA - home to optics, night vision, thermal, sights, scopes, binoculars, and monoculars for North America.

pulsarnv.com

This was the most impressive thermal display I’ve ever seen. It was a huge display compared to what I’m used to looking through.

I’m used to looking through a single monocular or rifle scope and these binoculars were on a whole other level.

Would highly recommend these over a monocular.

I went over to a Scheels store to look at and hold a few of these. WOW Wildflower you were right. Those Merger binoculars are so nice to look through.I compared the LRF XT50 to the LRF XP35, and the Telos XP50 monocular. The two later have a 640 sensor and the XT has a 1280, and you are correct it is amazing to look through, awesome, lol. I preferred the size of the XP35, it feels just like my 10x32 Swarovski's, but the sensor of the XT50 over rules it. When it comes to Monocular vs Binocular, I prefer the Binocular more than I thought I would. Much easier on the eyes for me anyway, I could look through those all day.

 

[wildfowler]

I don’t think you’d be unhappy with them.

 

[Krishnakotti]

Which one is better Topdon TS004 or AGM TAIPAN TM10-256 ?
I am trying to say at 500$ mark and was thinking of getting one for Birds. Owls at night.

 

[nmerc_photos]

Thanks for that info.

When you look in the TOPDON you are looking at a much larger "screen" vs the AGM. I'd equate this to the measurement we have for EVFs and OVFs of magnification. Like the high end DSLRs like Canon 1DX series had an immersive OVF image presented to the viewer. Same thing looking through an A1 EVF. Crop sensor DLSRs and less expensive FF DSLRs had much smaller OVF images. The AGM reminds me of looking through a DX DSLR (or worse) where as the TOPDON is like a mid-tier FF OVF.

For example the 1DX OVF is a 0.76x where as the 5DIII is 0.71x. An A1 is an impressive 0.9x magnification. An A7IV has 0.78x magnification. A Z9 is 0.8x. I think this is what I'm seeing in the TOPDON vs the AGM and it isn't directly related to the display's resolution.

Gotta be honest, most of that info and the comparisons go right over my head haha. I'll have to do more research and see if I can better understand what's going on.

I'm working on securing an A1 II hopefully mid next week, and starting to sell my Nikon gear. Once some of the dust has settled, if I have extra funds I might pick up an AGM TM10-256 (again) and the new AGM TM15-384 v2 for comparisons sake. I have a bunch of friends interested who will buy them from me at a slight used discount once I'm done with them.

I went over to a Scheels store to look at and hold a few of these. WOW Wildflower you were right. Those Merger binoculars are so nice to look through.I compared the LRF XT50 to the LRF XP35, and the Telos XP50 monocular. The two later have a 640 sensor and the XT has a 1280, and you are correct it is amazing to look through, awesome, lol. I preferred the size of the XP35, it feels just like my 10x32 Swarovski's, but the sensor of the XT50 over rules it. When it comes to Monocular vs Binocular, I prefer the Binocular more than I thought I would. Much easier on the eyes for me anyway, I could look through those all day.

Ah you're so lucky to have a Scheels near you! I don't think I have anyone around that would let me test them. I think the Helion XP28 will be a permanent fixture for me until a modern wide FOV comes out, but I wouldn't mind testing the Merger XP35 Binos.

 

[deeno]

Which one is better Topdon TS004 or AGM TAIPAN TM10-256 ?​

The V2 TM10-256 has a dissapointing NETD spec compared to the other V2's. It's still < 35k. I would also take a look at the Rix K2 which is spec'd at < 20k. For my hand I actually like the rangefinder form factor vs a tube mono.

This does call into question - I would like to know how much of a difference a NETD of < 35k is vs < 20k from those with experience. This happens to also be the difference between the V1 and V2 Taipan 15-384 and could help people gauge what kind of discount makes it worth buying the older model over the new one

 

[nmerc_photos]

The V2 TM10-256 has a dissapointing NETD spec compared to the other V2's. It's still < 35k. I would also take a look at the Rix K2 which is spec'd at < 20k. For my hand I actually like the rangefinder form factor vs a tube mono.

This does call into question - I would like to know how much of a difference a NETD of < 35k is vs < 20k from those with experience. This happens to be the difference between the V1 and V2 Taipan 15-384 and could help people gauge what kind of discount makes it worth buying the older model over the new one

The value of NETD is often overstated, and it varies so wildly from manufacturer to manufacturer that it's not really worth discussing between brands.

Also the best birding monocular available right now is <60mk NETD so <35mk or <20mk are all awesome.

Thanks for bringing up the Rix K2. I've heard a lot of praise for the Rix thermal scopes for hunting, but never their monoculars. The specs on that unit look pretty good relatively, so it may be worth exploring further.

Here's a video between <40mK and <25mK NETD that might help:

Unless you could find a v1 for 50% off MSRP, I would definitely go with the v2.

 

[deeno]

Thank you! That video is really helpful. The image difference is quite a bit better, but not night and day different.

 

[arbitrage]

Gotta be honest, most of that info and the comparisons go right over my head haha. I'll have to do more research and see if I can better understand what's going on.

I'm working on securing an A1 II hopefully mid next week, and starting to sell my Nikon gear. Once some of the dust has settled, if I have extra funds I might pick up an AGM TM10-256 (again) and the new AGM TM15-384 v2 for comparisons sake. I have a bunch of friends interested who will buy them from me at a slight used discount once I'm done with them.



Ah you're so lucky to have a Scheels near you! I don't think I have anyone around that would let me test them. I think the Helion XP28 will be a permanent fixture for me until a modern wide FOV comes out, but I wouldn't mind testing the Merger XP35 Binos.

Here is an explanation of viewfinder magnification: https://www.neocamera.com/article/viewfinder_compare


"Electronic Viewfinders usually have their magnification specified relative to a 50mm lens on a full-frame camera, so their magnification should be the same as their Effective Size. The actual size of the EVF is measured in inches diagonally. This is not equivalent to magnification since there are magnifying optical elements between the tiny display and the eye-piece that forms the EVF."

 

[Brian W]

Gotta be honest, most of that info and the comparisons go right over my head haha. I'll have to do more research and see if I can better understand what's going on.

I'm working on securing an A1 II hopefully mid next week, and starting to sell my Nikon gear. Once some of the dust has settled, if I have extra funds I might pick up an AGM TM10-256 (again) and the new AGM TM15-384 v2 for comparisons sake. I have a bunch of friends interested who will buy them from me at a slight used discount once I'm done with them.



Ah you're so lucky to have a Scheels near you! I don't think I have anyone around that would let me test them. I think the Helion XP28 will be a permanent fixture for me until a modern wide FOV comes out, but I wouldn't mind testing the Merger XP35 Binos.

Would the Armasight Warden 640 (coming out soon) be something you'd consider a modern wide FOV?

Warden 640 2-8x35mm Thermal Monocular

Armasight offers thermal & night vision scopes, optics & goggles. Shop the best in thermal imaging rifle scopes, infrared sights, crossbow scopes, and binoculars, and try our innovative products today!

armasight.com

 

[nmerc_photos]

Would the Armasight Warden 640 (coming out soon) be something you'd consider a modern wide FOV?

Warden 640 2-8x35mm Thermal Monocular

Armasight offers thermal & night vision scopes, optics & goggles. Shop the best in thermal imaging rifle scopes, infrared sights, crossbow scopes, and binoculars, and try our innovative products today!

armasight.com

I've never heard of this brand before, so I'd need to research more.

But yes, on paper the specs look okay. 640 x 480 sensor with 22 x 18 FOV.

 

[Brian W]

I've never heard of this brand before, so I'd need to research more.

But yes, on paper the specs look okay. 640 x 480 sensor with 22 x 18 FOV.

One possible issue I see so far might be the battery: CR123A 3V.

 

[Jose Raposo]

OK I've made a conscious decision to stop reading this thread because it will inevitably end up costing me some serious money .All kidding aside, this is one of the most informative threads I've read in quite sometime.